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Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

Lion IRC

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Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Why did Christian America vote to abolish slavery?

It’s simply astounding what ignorant nonsense you spew out.

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

The slaveholders of the South were uniformly CHRISTIANS.

Greedy, money loving, racist slaveholders.

...and they were vastly outnumbered by non-slave owners who were Christians and who supported the abolition of slavery.

They invoked THE BIBLE in defense of slavery.

The same bible used by Christians who outnumbered slave owners and eventually successfully ended slavery.

You know, the stupid story of Ham. Finally, neither CHRISTIANS, nor anyone else, “voted” to end slavery.

Are you saying America wasn't a democracy back then? That the Christian members of Congress who opposed slavery weren't democratically elected?

And you accuse me of spewing out ignorant nonsense?

It was partly ended by Abraham Lincoln in the Emancipation Proclamation,

If I recall correctly Lincoln was elected president.

and later prohibited by Constitutional amendment by Congress

The democratically elected Congress.

that was then ratified by states,

You mean the elected legislatures of those states.

Are you American?

which was not a “vote of Christian America,”

Where did those quotation marks come from?

Please stop disgracing yourself with your utter ignorance. It’s unseemly.

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

In his youth, Lincoln wrote a tract against Christianity. His friends destroyed it, believing it would harm his political career.

Show me the tract.
Then we'll talk.

Intimates said Lincoln did not believe in an after life.

Lincoln was an avid spiritualist.
Educate yourself.

His racial views are complicated, as like everyone he was a product of his time. But his stance against slavery was unwavering.

Yes. He quoted bible verses in support of his position.

Lincoln hoped that freed slaves would VOLUNTARILY leave the country, because he believed — who can even now say he was wrong, in MAGAt America?

Dont get distracted.
This isnt about Trump.
 

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Why did Christian America vote to abolish slavery?

It’s simply astounding what ignorant unonsense you spew out.

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.
It is up to the claimants of fact to substantiate their claim.

Christianity was used to support slavery and to abolish it. Which suggests to this observer that the conscience of individuals, not religion, that was important in eliminating slavery..
 
That Christianity was dominant in the 19th century is historical L fact. Protestants dominated and both Catholics and Jews were disdained.

If yiu look at the signers f the Declaration Of Independence you will see a number of Deists who were not Christian.


Chrsitian slave holders in the south justified slavery on biblical interpretation.


The explanation that black Africans, as the "sons of Ham", were cursed, possibly "blackened" by their sins, was sporadically advanced during the Middle Ages, but its acceptance became increasingly common during the slave trade of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.


Some Christians in the 19th century were against slavery in the USA but not all.

In fact both Brazil ad Mexico banned slavery before the 19th century Christian USA.
 

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Why did Christian America vote to abolish slavery?

It’s simply astounding what ignorant nonsense you spew out.

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

Yeah. So what?

The slaveholders of the South were uniformly CHRISTIANS.

Greedy, money loving, racist slaveholders.

All avid Christians.
...and they were vastly outnumbered by non-slave owners who were Christians and who supported the abolition of slavery.

No, abolitionists were a minority in North and South. You are astoundingly ignorant of American history. The issue in the race for president in 1860 was not about abolishing slavery. Only a tiny minority supported that. Abraham Lincoln was not among them, though he detested slavery. However, he did not believe he had any Constitutional authority to abolish it even if elected president, and indeed in his first inaugural address supported a Constitutional amendment to guarantee slavery in perpetuity in the south. The issue in 1860 was the desire of Lincoln and his Republican Party to prevent the SPREAD of slavery into the territories. Educate yourself, if possible.
They invoked THE BIBLE in defense of slavery.

The same bible used by Christians who outnumbered slave owners and eventually successfully ended slavery.

Christians did not end slavery. It is true that probably most abolitionists were Christians, but then so were most everyone in America back then. This also points to an unresolvable problem for you stupid Holy Babble: If the Bible were truly the word of God, how can so many people read the same text and come to diametrically opposite conclusions about what it teaches? How can your all-knowing and all-powerful God you claim exists be so astoundingly incompetent at communicating his message in a way that all can understand it and act accordingly upon it?

You know, the stupid story of Ham. Finally, neither CHRISTIANS, nor anyone else, “voted” to end slavery.

Are you saying America wasn't a democracy back then? That the Christian members of Congress who opposed slavery weren't democratically elected?

America was not and is not a democracy. It is REPUBLIC. Educate yourself if you can. My point, of course, is that in a republic, the people as a whole, Christian or otherwise, do not vote directly on passing laws. So there was never a public vote whether to end slavery and if there had been, most people would likely have voted to keep it intact. You might try to educate yourself to the fact that the North fought the Civil War to keep the Union intact and certainly NOT to end slavery. And even in the northern states at that time where slavery did not exist, blacks were not treated as citizens and were deprived of the political rights that whites enjoyed. You might try to educate yourself to those facts, if that is possible for you to do.

And you accuse me of spewing out ignorant nonsense?

Yes, that is all you ever do. You might try to educate yourself.

It was partly ended by Abraham Lincoln in the Emancipation Proclamation,

If I recall correctly Lincoln was elected president.

Lincoln was elected president with 39 percent of the vote in a four-way race, and he was NOT elected, as noted above, on a platform to abolish slavery. Educate yourself, please.

and later prohibited by Constitutional amendment by Congress

The democratically elected Congress.

Slavery was abolished at the end of the war because Lincoln had succeeded in convincing enough representatives, and some of the public, that ending slavery was the only way to end the war. Not because a majority of (Christian) whites opposed slavery or thought that blacks should have equal rights. You should try to educate yourself. Did you see the Steven Spielberg movie Lincoln, based on the book by Dolores Kearns Goodwin, which vividly depicts these realities? If you did, you obviously understood none of it.
that was then ratified by states,

You mean the elected legislatures of those states.

Are you American?

Yes, it was ratified by elected legislatures. So what? See above. It’s got nothing to do with a direct vote of the public, as you implied. You do not know the difference between a democracy and a republic. You should try to educate yourself.
which was not a “vote of Christian America,”

Where did those quotation marks come from?

From you.
Please stop disgracing yourself with your utter ignorance. It’s unseemly.

Most Americans in Abraham Lincoln's day were Christians. (Christians who didnt own slaves.) Prove me wrong.

LOL, SO WHAT? Of COURSE most people did not own slaves — they couldn’t afford to do so! Those good Christians who could afford slaves very happily bought them and used your Holy Babble to justify their purchases.

In his youth, Lincoln wrote a tract against Christianity. His friends destroyed it, believing it would harm his political career.

Show me the tract.
Then we'll talk.

Go use Google and educate yourself for a change. I am not going to do work for you. Lincoln’s tract against Christianity is a well-known fact of history.

Intimates said Lincoln did not believe in an after life.

Lincoln was an avid spiritualist.
Educate yourself.

I don’t even need to click your stupid link to know it’s wrong. Lincoln was NOT a spiritualist. HIs wife was. After their beloved son Willie died, she conducted seances in the White House to try to contact him. Lincoln went along with this BS to humor her. He was very protective of her.
His racial views are complicated, as like everyone he was a product of his time. But his stance against slavery was unwavering.

Yes. He quoted bible verses in support of his position.

So what? Everybody quoted Bible verses back then. Lincoln was talking to a Bible-suffused pubic and used the kind of language that people could understand.
Lincoln hoped that freed slaves would VOLUNTARILY leave the country, because he believed — who can even now say he was wrong, in MAGAt America?

Dont get distracted.
This isnt about Trump.

Sure it is. Even today America is racist. Lincoln understood the racism of Christian America quite well, which is why he correctly foresaw racial strife would occur far into the future.
 
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It should be noted that Lincoln’s religious views were complicated, like everything else about the man. He did indeed write a tract against Christianity and inveighed against it in his youth. During the Civil War, and especially after the death of his beloved Willie, his views became more nuanced, no doubt because of all the grief he was suffering. His magisterial Second Inaugural Address was suffused with religion and Biblical allusions, but it should again be borne in mind that he, as an astute politician, was speaking in the vocabulary and cadences of a Bible-suffused public, and also that his “God” seems to have been a kind of abstract force of providential destiny, and certainly not the triune God of Christianity. Lincoln might possibly have been a Deist, or just someone who believed in some kind of obscure Providence. A bible-thumping Christian he certainly never was, and he never joined any church. He once tellingly said, “When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.”
 
Christians ended slavery in the US.

Christians also ended the persecution of witches.

Of course, Christians also started both of these things. Basically, in a place and time when almost everyone is Christian, almost everything, good, bad, or indifferent, was done by Christians.

To give Christianity the credit for putting an end to slavery in the US is absurd. One might as well give Hitler the credit for finally succeeding in killing the German Führer. It's undeniably technically correct to say that Hitler personally did this. Should he be awarded some kind of posthumous medal? The entire Allied armed forces in the European Theatre had spent over five years striving for (but failing to achieve) his demise.
 
And finally, of course, it makes no difference at all what Lincoln’s religious views were, with respect to the truth of falsity of religion. If every person on earth believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ (which they do not, of course), that would not make the belief true.
 
Keep in mind slaves were not cheap to buy or own.

Most Christians or anyone else probably could not afford slaves.

Jefferson, and Washington were upscale slave owners.
 
The Christian God specifically allows chattel slavery and the beating of slaves to the point of death. Nobody in the entire Bible contradicts this and calls for an end of slavery and the liberation of the slaves. Slave owners understood this and buttressed their position with this understanding. Prove me wrong.
 
It is up to the claimants of fact to substantiate their claim.

Nope.
I can make a claim and people can let it go unchallenged. It's up to them.

Christianity was used to support slavery and to abolish it.

Which Christian view prevaled? The pro slavery one or the anti-slavery one?

Which suggests to this observer that the conscience of individuals, not religion, that was important in eliminating slavery..

Theres zero gap between my conscience and my religious views.
 
The Christian God specifically allows chattel slavery ..

No it doesnt. It allows people to be fed and clothed and housed rather than starving to death.
...and the beating of slaves to the point of death.

Corporal punishment can have strong, satisfactory moral justification in many cases. Eg. deterrence.

If one slave rapes another should they be punished?

Should police in the year 2024 be allowed to carry batons? Capsicum spray?

Nobody in the entire Bible contradicts this and calls for an end of slavery...

Slavery is wage theft. The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Slavery is a function of greed. What does the bible say about the love of money?

The bible says treat others the way you would like to be treated. Do you wanna be a slave?

Slave owners understood this and buttressed their position with this understanding. Prove me wrong.

Some people use misinterpreted bible verses out of context. Prove me wrong.

WAIT!
That's something we already agree on. 😎
 
I can make a claim and people can let it go unchallenged.
And disbelieved.
It's up to them.
Sure. But why would anyone believe any unsubstantiated claim at all?

If your claims go unchallenged, it's far more likely (certainly around here) that people don't give them any credence whatsoever, and can't be bothered to dignify them with a response, than that they accept and agree with them.

In a scientific environment, even the most banal and seemingly obvious claims are disbelieved* until substantiated.

If you tell me it's raining, I won't believe you until I have looked out of the window. My failure to contradict, or even to check, your claim should not be misconstrued as my accepting it to be true.








*Note that disbelieving a claim does NOT imply believing it to be false. A claim is either true, false, or unverified; Any unchallenged claim is in the unverified category, and as such is valueless as a component of rational thinking.
 
Also, it’s quite startling and amusing how dumb the title of this thread is. Why would anyone need to prove you wrong about such obvious facts? What’s amusing is how you take these two facts in combination and by implication suggest that they mean most Christians opposed slavery, whereas in fact the exact opposite is true. Abolitionists in Antebellum America were a tiny minority and were scorned and often physically attacked north and south by the good Christian public. The reason that most of these nice Christians did not own slaves is not — which you are so clumsily and futilely trying to imply — because they opposed slavery. It is because most people back then, the vast majority in fact, could not afford to do so.
 
Which Christian view prevaled? The pro slavery one or the anti-slavery one?
For about two thousand years, the former; For about two hundred, the latter.

Any news on that medal for the guy who finally did for Adolf Hitler? He must have been a truly noble and brave individual, worthy of praise for his deed. I wonder why people aren't more impressed by him.
 
I wouldn’t even say the “Christian” view against slavery has prevailed for the last 200 years. What ended slavery was not Christianity in the least, but the military muscle of the Union and the political sagacity of Lincoln. If the South had won slavery might still be around today and supported by tons of Christians.
 
The Christian God specifically allows chattel slavery ..

No it doesnt. It allows people to be fed and clothed and housed rather than starving to death.
Chattel slavery = total ownership of a human, as property, including their offspring, with the power to sell them at will and force them to work without wages. Leviticus begins by stating that the laws presented come from God. Leviticus 25:35-43 describes limited servitude that one can impose on fellow Israelites. But at verse 44, continuing through verse 46, it states: 'You may also buy the children of the foreigners who live among you. Such children born in your land may become your property and you may leave them as an inheritance to your sons, whom they must serve as long as they live. But you must not treat any of your fellow Israelites harshly.' This fits the definition of chattel slavery perfectly.
...and the beating of slaves to the point of death.

Corporal punishment can have strong, satisfactory moral justification in many cases. Eg. deterrence.

If one slave rapes another should they be punished?

Should police in the year 2024 be allowed to carry batons? Capsicum spray?
Exodus 21:20-21, which allows the beating of a slave to the point of death with no consequences, sets no cause such as rape for the beating. You added the inflammatory concept of rape (which, by the way, slave owners have almost always considered their privilege.) This means you could just as well beat your slave for not working to your satisfaction. What do batons and capsicum spray have to do with a beating that stops just short of death? Have you read any headlines about use of force in the past 10 years?
Nobody in the entire Bible contradicts this and calls for an end of slavery...

Slavery is wage theft. The bible says thou shalt not steal.
Did you notice how Lev. 25 sets an entirely different standard for fellow Israelites in bondage and the 'foreigners'? Do you think the 'foreigners' got wages? What meaning would wages have if you are property and have no autonomy whatever?
Slavery is a function of greed. What does the bible say about the love of money?

The bible says treat others the way you would like to be treated. Do you wanna be a slave?
Yeah, the Bible is great about "Thou shalt not kill" in the same book that promotes wars of extermination against foreigners. Admit it, you have no Bible verse whatever that calls for the freeing of all slaves and that teaches what we know in the present day, that slavery is unspeakably evil. Again, if it sets one standard for Israelite bondmen and an entirely different one for "foreigners", then where is the Bible verse that tells us to treat those foreign slaves as we wish to be treated? Do you wanna be beaten to the point of death? Exodus 21 says it's justified to treat your slaves that way.
Slave owners understood this and buttressed their position with this understanding. Prove me wrong.

Some people use misinterpreted bible verses out of context. Prove me wrong.
I just did, but it wasn't the slave owners in this case.
WAIT!
That's something we already agree on. 😎
Nope.
 
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It is up to the claimants of fact to substantiate their claim.

Nope.
I can make a claim and people can let it go unchallenged. It's up to them.
I stand corrected. You can make any claim of fact and refuse to substantiate. And anyone can rightly conclude your claim is bs.
Christianity was used to support slavery and to abolish it.
Lion IRC said:
Which Christian view prevaled? The pro slavery one or the anti-slavery one?
The anti slavery view prevailed due to North’s victory over the South. Not only was antislavery mot exclusively Christian and that some Christians refuse to participate in the Civil War on religious grounds, but people fought for other reasons. All in all, it seems to me to attribute the ending of skavery to Christianity or to Christians is desperate overreach.

Which suggests to this observer that the conscience of individuals, not religion, that was important in eliminating slavery..
Lion IRC said:
Theres zero gap between my conscience and my religious views.
You have my condolences .
 
The Christian God specifically allows chattel slavery ..

No it doesnt. It allows people to be fed and clothed and housed rather than starving to death.
...and the beating of slaves to the point of death.

Corporal punishment can have strong, satisfactory moral justification in many cases. Eg. deterrence.

If one slave rapes another should they be punished?

Should police in the year 2024 be allowed to carry batons? Capsicum spray?

Nobody in the entire Bible contradicts this and calls for an end of slavery...

Slavery is wage theft. The bible says thou shalt not steal.

Slavery is a function of greed. What does the bible say about the love of money?

The bible says treat others the way you would like to be treated. Do you wanna be a slave?

Slave owners understood this and buttressed their position with this understanding. Prove me wrong.

Some people use misinterpreted bible verses out of context. Prove me wrong.

WAIT!
That's something we already agree on. 😎
You are 'going off the rails ' so to speak. Grasping at straws trying to get around your inference that most 19th century Christians were not pro slavery.

Incoherent babbling. Should a slave be punished for raping a slave? Where the hell does that come from? Sounds like a biblical interpretation.
 
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