Hope For The Dying

[Janice Rael]

Upthread, someone said something about what this classic Blues song is about. Albert King plays my favorite version.

Everybody Wants to go to Heaven, But Nobody Wants to Die​

Everybody wants to laugh
but nobody wants to cry
I say everybody wants to laugh but nobody wants to cry
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die

 

[Lion IRC]

Dear Lion,


I'm sorry, I didn't mean rape apologist... I shouldn't have called you that... I lost my temper... could we start over please... I'd like to have a forceful robust, yet civil argument

LOL
OK

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Dear Lion,


I'm sorry, I didn't mean rape apologist... I shouldn't have called you that... I lost my temper... could we start over please... I'd like to have a forceful robust, yet civil argument

I mean it's not much different from him apologizing for all of the massacres in the Bible. Or the "god has a plan!" bullshit and all of what that entails.

 

[Rhea]

Dear Lion,


I'm sorry, I didn't mean rape apologist... I shouldn't have called you that... I lost my temper... could we start over please... I'd like to have a forceful robust, yet civil argument

LOL
OK

Tell me what you mean by that.
Do you think I’m lying?

 

[Lion IRC]

I said OK

 

[pood]

I said OK

But added a LOL. You are notoriously slippery with definitions and weasley and evasive in argumentation.

 

[Lion IRC]

I can't stop ppl from being paranoid about hidden meanings.

 

[Lion IRC]

How many mg per hour of Dilaudid would constitute sufficient pain relief in your opinion?

Wouldn't that depend on the individual patient? I thought you used to be a doctor.

What you fail to understand is that the lines between "enough" (which is measured in pain control) and "too much" (which is measured in respiratory depression) eventually cross.

Too much accidental pain control is different than intentional death.

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".

But what's the point in such a life? If you're not conscious to experience it where's the value?

Presumably the patient would value the extra time they had prior to that point.

And AFIAK there's no place where I could tell the doctor: I know the lines are going to cross. Let it happen, do not use the ventilator.

The gray areas are where the laws are needed.

Would they still want to live?

I don't understand why you think they weren't already suicidal long before they got to that point. And if they were, you're still stuck with the question of whether the State should legalize assisted or unassisted suicide.

One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.

Strawman--nobody's saying that they should get to tell you what to do with your body.

I thought the issue revolves entirely around other people (The State) setting the rules.
In particular, the rules about physicians determining whether or not you meet the criteria.

You said it yourself.

....The doctor is only deciding if the legal requirements are met

 

[DBT]

Lion IRC seems to be implying most people want to kill off their relative to get an early inheritance,

No. I think most people (quite rightly) do NOT want to do that.

Just as I think most people in general don't want to commit homicide. And yet we still have laws criminalizing homicide.

There are those who want an end to their pain and suffering when there is no hope of making a recovery.

 

[bilby]

I can't stop ppl from being paranoid about hidden meanings.

But you could stop adding weaselly qualifiers to your posts, and actually state clearly what you mean.

If you wanted to.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yo, @Lion IRC - please stop being wrong about medical aid in dying for the terminally ill; there's no need to be so mistaken. You are not quoting the laws. @Loren Pechtel is providing facts and information that are true and legal. Your arguments are no match for the actual laws and actual experiences that exist and take place. I don't understand why you're going on about end-of-life care without just reading the laws you seem to be very interested in learning about.

You wouldn't be suffering if you hadn't sinned. Not going on to the bitter end is evading God's punishment!

 

[pood]

Yo, @Lion IRC - please stop being wrong about medical aid in dying for the terminally ill; there's no need to be so mistaken. You are not quoting the laws. @Loren Pechtel is providing facts and information that are true and legal. Your arguments are no match for the actual laws and actual experiences that exist and take place. I don't understand why you're going on about end-of-life care without just reading the laws you seem to be very interested in learning about.

You wouldn't be suffering if you hadn't sinned. Not going on to the bitter end is evading God's punishment!

Which I guess makes Jimmy Carter a sinner?

Christian morality, or this version of Christianity (there are many, another problem for Christians) is really unfathomable to me. It’s like a sadistic torture cult.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".

But what's the point in such a life? If you're not conscious to experience it where's the value?

Presumably the patient would value the extra time they had prior to that point.

Please read more carefully.

I'm asking what's the point of survival in a coma.

Would they still want to live?

I don't understand why you think they weren't already suicidal long before they got to that point. And if they were, you're still stuck with the question of whether the State should legalize assisted or unassisted suicide.

One of the biggest issues in this space is...why should a physician get to decide what I can and can't do with my own body - and WHEN.

Strawman--nobody's saying that they should get to tell you what to do with your body.

I thought the issue revolves entirely around other people (The State) setting the rules.
In particular, the rules about physicians determining whether or not you meet the criteria.

You said it yourself.

....The doctor is only deciding if the legal requirements are met

You still fail to understand that it is fundamentally the patient's decision.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".

But what's the point in such a life? If you're not conscious to experience it where's the value?

Presumably the patient would value the extra time they had prior to that point.

And AFIAK there's no place where I could tell the doctor: I know the lines are going to cross. Let it happen, do not use the ventilator.

The gray areas are where the laws are needed.

We have a thing called a "Living Will". You are complaining about something we already have solutions to.

 

[Janice Rael]

Oooh hi @Jimmy Higgins , yes, Living Wills and Advanced Medical Directives.

I had some, with a lawyer and a Man in 2019. The lawyer had been an ally to actions that I had organized. But she never spoke to me again after she let That Man sign my life and death over to him.

Never replied to my emails, calls, or website inquiries. He was atrocious and it was bad.

I think my AARP membership entitles me to free Living Wills and Medical Advanced Directves. Now is not a time for me to do that paperwork, though.

I don't think That Man can use the Power of Attorney any more, or any of that crap. A judge told him.

 

[southernhybrid]

What happens when the Dilaudid puts the patient into respiratory failure and you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator?

Why are you asking me? You've answered your own question.

"...you have to induce a coma and put them on a ventilator".

But what's the point in such a life? If you're not conscious to experience it where's the value?

Presumably the patient would value the extra time they had prior to that point.

And AFIAK there's no place where I could tell the doctor: I know the lines are going to cross. Let it happen, do not use the ventilator.

The gray areas are where the laws are needed.

We have a thing called a "Living Will". You are complaining about something we already have solutions to.

A living will aka Advanced Directive, allows one to say they don't want any aggressive end of life care, but it doesn't allow, at least not yet in the states, to allow someone to end your iife. I may have mentioned this before, but one of my dear patients who died a peaceful death as she was dehydrated after dementia took her ability to swallow away, had a living will that clearly stated, she didn't want a G-tube or any type of artificial feedings. The hospital doctors were about to insert a G-tube in her, which imo would have been cruel, but her brother found her Advanced Directive which saved her from lingering on, perhaps for years in almost a vegetative state.

I've seen many people back in the late 70s and 80s who were sadly forced to live like that, but after we had Advanced Directives, as well as the ability to appoint a medical power of attorney, that practice became very rare. I tend to think that if given the choice, those folks would not have chosen to be fed via a G-tube when they were totally dependent and could not even speak or recognize any family members.

 

[Janice Rael]

Oh that's terrible, sohy.

I worked closely with Barbara Mancini when I was advocating for medical aid-in-dying. Her story is a cautionary tale about a misguided police attack on her, because law enforcement felt that she had deliberately given her dying father a lethal dose of morphine.

A patient can't ask, and a loved one can't do the deed. It's not safe or legal.

When working on the legislation advocacy in New Jersey, I learned that ALS patients wouldn't qualify under the law, because they can't self-administer the medication. I think a lot of people don't realize what the legal options are.

I don't know mine, because that is rich people knowledge, and my own legal status at my potential end of life is out of my hands. Ah well.