Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[ksen]

I think we can agree that Freddie Gray was unlucky.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!

It shows that fatal freak spinal injuries can happen relatively easily if you are unlucky.

Unlucky? How many sporting events on the planet, and there is one video of one incident. Seems like unlucky may be an understatement. How many athletes have broken their back in the US during physical play? Three, four? From how many games, how many sports? How many pro wrestlers sever their spine?

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.

It's dreadful, it is, to have a house fall on you, but accidents will happen.

 

[ksen]

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.

 

[arkirk]

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.

He was indeed unlucky. He was black, He ran into some police in Baltimore. He got arrested. They broke his spine. Lotsa "bad luck." They are still formulating a story. You'll know soon "how he died."

The real problem: COP OPACITY.

 

[dismal]

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody. And yet they are still not able to tell us how he got injured? Do they not keep an eye on people in their custody?

Sounds a litte far-fetched.

He was indeed unlucky. He was black, He ran into some police in Baltimore. He got arrested. They broke his spine. Lotsa "bad luck." They are still formulating a story. You'll know soon "how he died."

The real problem: COP OPACITY.

The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.

 

[Sarpedon]

The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.

 

[Trausti]

Instead we get a video where an Indian Football player allegedly broke his neck and scoffing at doubt that this injury just happened. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with some people?!

It shows that fatal freak spinal injuries can happen relatively easily if you are unlucky.

It also because of the nature of the injury. Spinal injuries are highly associated with sport or occupational accidents. (Use the Google should you doubt.) If in an extraordinary rare occurrence a spinal injury happened during a battery, you'd expect to see other indicia of trauma; such as swelling, bruising, scratches, and scars. None have been reported here.

- - - Updated - - -

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody.

No. The police said that he died in their custody. If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

 

[ksen]

The police have admitted that the injury occured while Gray was in their custody.

No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

 

[dismal]

The mayor of Baltimore is black. She won with 87% of the vote so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black city. The police chief is black, so I assume it's not a particularly anti-black police department.

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.

Wikipedia says the Baltimore PD was 43% black as of the O'Malley administration, which was 1999-2007. It seems odd that an institution that has multiple layers of black management and 43% black membership would be so steeped in racism.

Currently, the department is administered by Commissioner Anthony Batts and Deputy Commissioner of Patrol Garnell Green, both of whom are African American. [24]

During Martin O'Malley's administration as mayor, the department had become 43% African American.[25] While progress has been made to improve the department's relationship with Baltimore's now majority African American community, improvements are still being made to the department which for several years has been subject to criticism for its treatment of African American citizens. Police community relations have remained strained with the war on drugs that has plagued several African American neighborhoods in East and West Baltimore and coincidentally enough, many of the most despised officers in several of Baltimore's African American neighborhoods are also African American.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department

 

[Trausti]

No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

He was able to talk in the van, not walk. In the video you can her the women filming yell out that they broke his leg. [They didn't break his leg.]

Police investigators said they still do not understand precisely how — or when — Mr. Gray was injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-police-officers-suspended-in-freddie-gray-inquiry-are-identified.html

- - - Updated - - -

When the problem is institutional, you can't make those assumptions. Just because someone is the mayor or the chief doesn't mean that he or she can change those institutions.

Wikipedia says the Baltimore PD was 43% black as of the O'Malley administration, which was 1999-2007. It seems odd that an institution that has multiple layers of black management and 43% black membership would be so steeped in racism.

Currently, the department is administered by Commissioner Anthony Batts and Deputy Commissioner of Patrol Garnell Green, both of whom are African American. [24]

During Martin O'Malley's administration as mayor, the department had become 43% African American.[25] While progress has been made to improve the department's relationship with Baltimore's now majority African American community, improvements are still being made to the department which for several years has been subject to criticism for its treatment of African American citizens. Police community relations have remained strained with the war on drugs that has plagued several African American neighborhoods in East and West Baltimore and coincidentally enough, many of the most despised officers in several of Baltimore's African American neighborhoods are also African American.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department

As I understand, as long as there is a white heterosexual male walking somewhere on the planet, blame racism.

 

[ksen]

He was able to talk in the van, not walk. In the video you can her the women filming yell out that they broke his leg. [They didn't break his leg.]

Police investigators said they still do not understand precisely how — or when — Mr. Gray was injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/us/baltimore-police-officers-suspended-in-freddie-gray-inquiry-are-identified.html

[Mayor] Rawlings-Blake has indicated that the injury probably occurred after Mr. Gray was placed in the van.

I'll reiterate, before Gray's encounter with the police he was fine. After his encounter with the police he was not fine. Which indicates his injury occured during his encounter with the police.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. The police said that he died in their custody.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

A traffic accident from something like 20 years ago comes to mind. A friend of the family was rear-ended on the freeway but with a relatively low closing velocity--at the time she didn't realize she had actually been hurt. A few days later she went to the doctor--who promptly sent her to the hospital. Her neck was cracked and hanging by a thread, she could have dropped dead at any moment.

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

 

[credoconsolans]

It would be really bizarre if there was all this huge outpouring of rage and accusations of police brutality and it turns out it was just a freak injury.

It has happened in the past.

One poor kid fell off the last step of the school bus and tore his brainstem. He was dead within minutes.

 

[bilby]

As The Good Soldier Švejk says, 'a man under arrest is like a baby in swaddling clothes'. He must be cared for, fed and clothed because he is, by his arrest, rendered incapable of doing these things for himself.

An arrestee is, by law, innocent until he has had his day in court. It is not acceptable to write off any harm that befalls an arrested man as 'accidental'; by depriving him of his liberty to defend himself, to seek medical care and to determine in his own right when and if to leave his current situation, the police must take on the duty of his care themselves; and they must accept responsibility for any harm that befalls him while he is in custody.

Anything less is a denial of civilisation. It is not enough for police not to be brutal. In a civilised society, police must care for prisoners as well as, or even better than, they care for themselves; and they must be seen by society at large to do so. A society that does not make this demand of its police abdicates the right to consider itself civilised.

Whether the motive for failing in their duty to care for a particular arrestee is racism, or simple neglect, changes nothing. Civilised societies do not mistreat arrestees.

 

[Trausti]

As The Good Soldier Švejk says, 'a man under arrest is like a baby in swaddling clothes'. He must be cared for, fed and clothed because he is, by his arrest, rendered incapable of doing these things for himself.

An arrestee is, by law, innocent until he has had his day in court. It is not acceptable to write off any harm that befalls an arrested man as 'accidental'; by depriving him of his liberty to defend himself, to seek medical care and to determine in his own right when and if to leave his current situation, the police must take on the duty of his care themselves; and they must accept responsibility for any harm that befalls him while he is in custody.

Anything less is a denial of civilisation. It is not enough for police not to be brutal. In a civilised society, police must care for prisoners as well as, or even better than, they care for themselves; and they must be seen by society at large to do so. A society that does not make this demand of its police abdicates the right to consider itself civilised.

Whether the motive for failing in their duty to care for a particular arrestee is racism, or simple neglect, changes nothing. Civilised societies do not mistreat arrestees.

What you write is true, and for which I would agree, once in custody the police are responsible for his care. To say that the police did not timely notice his condition and provide him with medical care is a different question than alleging that they caused his injury; for that, there is no evidence.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/21/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-what-we-know/

Gray was placed inside a police van and was able to talk, said [Baltimore Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry] Rodriguez who described Gray as upset.

"And when Mr. Gray was taken out of that van, he could not talk, and he could not breathe," according to Rodriguez.

:hmmm:

If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

You'd think, yet here we are. He was able to talk going into the van, he was not able to talk or breathe coming out of the van and the police don't know why.

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

What I wouldn't expect with a severe spinal injury is being able to run away from the police to begin with. And if he fell without police help and suffered the injury I'd expect that to be some of the first information the police department to give out.

A traffic accident from something like 20 years ago comes to mind. A friend of the family was rear-ended on the freeway but with a relatively low closing velocity--at the time she didn't realize she had actually been hurt. A few days later she went to the doctor--who promptly sent her to the hospital. Her neck was cracked and hanging by a thread, she could have dropped dead at any moment.

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

I'm curious, what in the fuck would a red flag indicating possible abuse by police look like to you? I understand you don't have a personal anecdote to draw from, but please, if a nearly severed spine isn't a red flag that doesn't prevent instant defense of the police, what in the hell is?

 

[Rhea]

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

 

[Derec]

Unlucky? How many sporting events on the planet, and there is one video of one incident. Seems like unlucky may be an understatement. How many athletes have broken their back in the US during physical play? Three, four? From how many games, how many sports? How many pro wrestlers sever their spine?

And many people get arrested every day. Very unlikely freak accidents will still happen occasionally.

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.

It gives an example of a similar freak accident.

Do you have any evidence this was a "murder" (as the protesters are claiming) and not an accident?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And many people get arrested every day. Very unlikely freak accidents will still happen occasionally.

It's dreadful, it is, to have a house fall on you, but accidents will happen. - Glinda from Wicked

My statement still stands. Attaching that video is nothing but a pathetic attempt to whitewash what should be obviously a red flag in an incident involving the police. This shouldn't even be an argument.

It gives an example of a similar freak accident.

Do you have any evidence this was a "murder" (as the protesters are claiming) and not an accident?

Do you have a single shred of evidence to suggest I have claimed this was a murder. What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

 

[Sarpedon]

Freak accidents happen, but the atmosphere of mistrust that has turned this incident into a crisis has been years in the making.

If the police had cultivated trust and good behavior, they could easily sail through the occasional freak accident.