Freddie Gray dies a week after being injured during arrest

[Loren Pechtel]

Now, it's very common for bad guys to fake injuries when being arrested. Barring an obvious situation that warrants the ER they're probably going to take them to the jail and examine them there.

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.

Yeah, that'd take experience and training to be able to get a handle on someone faking it.

 

[ZiprHead]

I've heard of cops doing "brake Jobs" on people in their custody. Someone is belligerent, hit the brakes quickly and let them smash into the shield.

 

[Trausti]

What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

 

[Trausti]

I've heard of cops doing "brake Jobs" on people in their custody. Someone is belligerent, hit the brakes quickly and let them smash into the shield.

That explains why the paddy wagon had a cracked windshield.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on.

Just a near severed spine. That's all. It is serious deal, but we can write that off. I mean other than the whole near severed spine, no indications of any physical abnormalities that could have occurred when in custody.

I mean sure, he was breathing and fine when put into the vehicle and near dead a half hour later when removed, but to suggest something happened to him in the vehicle, there is simply no evidence... (and certainly no reason to suspect something may have happened in there... what are you a cop hater?) excluding the nearly severed spine of course. And we know that at least one case of whacky spine bustage happened in India in a football fixture once. Therefore... what are you looking at?!

 

[Trausti]

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on.

Just a near severed spine. That's all. It is serious deal, but we can write that off. I mean other than the whole near severed spine, no indications of any physical abnormalities that could have occurred when in custody.

I mean sure, he was breathing and fine when put into the vehicle and near dead a half hour later when removed, but to suggest something happened to him in the vehicle, there is simply no evidence... (and certainly no reason to suspect something may have happened in there... what are you a cop hater?) excluding the nearly severed spine of course. And we know that at least one case of whacky spine bustage happened in India in a football fixture once. Therefore... what are you looking at?!

If we're gonna blame the cops for the injury, we need to decide whether the injury occurred at the time Gray was arrested or while he was in the van. Consistency, people, consistency!

 

[ksen]

What I actually said was that a nearly severed spine is a serious red flag. Should be a red flag for everyone and the Police owe answers immediately. Why that isn't the case with you, Trausti, Loren, etc... I can only try to imagine.

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

The autopsy hasn't been released so how do you know none of those things were present?

 

[Rhea]

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.

So you agree with me completely that when someone claims to have a medical issue, Cops call an ambulance and don't try to diagnose it themselves. Then we never again have to watch a video of a man dying in a backseat of a cop car over the course of 8 minutes while he begs for medical attention, or a man with a nearly severed spine getting no medical attention as he cries out for it.

 

[Trausti]

Well, it's certainly serious, but it is because of the rare nature of this type injury that police conduct is an unlikely cause; especially, here, where there is no indication of bruising, swelling, scaring, bleeding, and so on. That the police did not immediately recognize that he had a catastrophic injury is not that surprising. Being able to spot incomplete spinal cord injury, and rule out other diagnoses, is something within the expertise of an ER doc or neurologist, not a lay person. Breathing difficulty, which Gray apparently reported, is associated with incomplete spinal cord injury but it not diagnostic of it. Many illnesses have shortness of breath as a symptom. Regardless, it's not certain that had he been taken to the hospital sooner it would have made any difference in the outcome.

The autopsy hasn't been released so how do you know none of those things were present?

Good point. The deputy police commissioner is a notorious scallywag.

"The autopsy was done today (Monday) ... We have no evidence of any use of force," Rodriguez said.

Rodriguez said the autopsy shows Gray suffered a serious injury to his spinal cord that caused his death. There were no broken limbs or other injury to his body.

"What we don't have at this point is how Mr. Gray sustained those injuries," Rodriguez said.

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/charging-documents-freddie-gray-ran-from-police/32468120

 

[RavenSky]

No. The police said that he died in their custody. If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

Yet entered the van under his own power - NOT something you would expect with a pre-existing spinal cord injury.

On the other hand, being thrown head first into the van after having your legs shackled (and your hands already cuffed) could have caused the injury

 

[RavenSky]

And many people get arrested every day. Very unlikely freak accidents will still happen occasionally.

One of the Baltimore reporters made a very astute observation. She's been a reporter in Baltimore for 25 years, and she noted that there are currently an average of 100,000 arrests per year for a city of 600,000. She said that 25 years ago it was a tiny fraction of annual arrests, and that the vast majority of current arrests are for things that would have only gotten a warning before.

And in the case of Freddie Gray, police had zero justifiable cause to chase down and arrest him in the first place.

Of course freak accidents will happen from time to time. But when the police force is arresting people for no good reason, or no reason at all in the case of Freddie Gray, those freak accidents mean innocent civilians are dead.

- - - Updated - - -

If the police are (demonstrably) unable to detect the difference between fake injury and real injury, what do you suppose the procedure ought to be?

I mean, really. This disturbing excuse of, "well, a lot of guys pretend to be hurt, so we couldn't detect this (umpteenth) one dying," should be a wake-up call that police should stop pretending to be trauma ward triage. Are they really okay with people dying in their custody? Are they really okay with this and think they should just keep letting people DIE in custody without a trial? What kind of monsters do that?

It's not reasonable to expect the police to be able to tell--that's an issue for a doctor, not a cop.

Then they should go straight to the doctor, NOT (as you suggested) to the jail first.

 

[Trausti]

No. The police said that he died in their custody. If the police admit that he was injured while in their custody, then they'd know how he was injured. Right?

I would say to re-review the first video released on the incident. It clearly shows that Gray is not well when taken to the paddy wagon. He's wailing in pain and can't walk. What you'd expect with a spinal injury.

Yet entered the van under his own power - NOT something you would expect with a pre-existing spinal cord injury.

On the other hand, being thrown head first into the van after having your legs shackled (and your hands already cuffed) could have caused the injury

So being carried by by cops, feet dragging behind, and a bystander yelling that a leg looks broke is "under his own power"? M'kay.

 

[ZiprHead]

As I understand it, there's a trick cops do called "rattling the can" where they throw the detainee into the back of the paddy wagon then bounce him around quite a bit while en route to the jail house.

 

[Trausti]

As I understand it, there's a trick cops do called "rattling the can" where they throw the detainee into the back of the paddy wagon then bounce him around quite a bit while en route to the jail house.

Let's not dismiss aliens. Ya know, missing time? They abduct you and ya not aware of it. There's no video of what happened in the van! Aliens coulda of got him then, and did a botched probe. The evidence is just as consistent.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Sometimes it's just a man's time to die. If it hadn't been from a mysteriously broken spine while in police custody, he'd probably have been eaten by an escaped tiger or crushed by a meteor. There's nothing to do except accept it as an example of the transience of life and move on.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Just a near severed spine. That's all. It is serious deal, but we can write that off. I mean other than the whole near severed spine, no indications of any physical abnormalities that could have occurred when in custody.

I mean sure, he was breathing and fine when put into the vehicle and near dead a half hour later when removed, but to suggest something happened to him in the vehicle, there is simply no evidence... (and certainly no reason to suspect something may have happened in there... what are you a cop hater?) excluding the nearly severed spine of course. And we know that at least one case of whacky spine bustage happened in India in a football fixture once. Therefore... what are you looking at?!

If we're gonna blame the cops for the injury, we need to decide whether the injury occurred at the time Gray was arrested or while he was in the van. Consistency, people, consistency!

Am I blaming the cops? I'm asking a question as to why the instantaneous defense of the cops, linking of a video showing how it is impossible to sever a spine by yourself, when from the most basic looking over of the facts, it is definitely worth standing back and waiting to see what comes out.

- - - Updated - - -

As I understand it, there's a trick cops do called "rattling the can" where they throw the detainee into the back of the paddy wagon then bounce him around quite a bit while en route to the jail house.

Let's not dismiss aliens. Ya know, missing time? They abduct you and ya not aware of it. There's no video of what happened in the van! Aliens coulda of got him then, and did a botched probe. The evidence is just as consistent.

Exactly. A man who was put into a van breathing and talking and leaving a van 30 minutes later (30 minutes? Where are they going?) almost dead, how dare anyone ask what happened in the Police van!?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Exactly. A man who was put into a van breathing and talking and leaving a van 30 minutes later (30 minutes? Where are they going?) almost dead, how dare anyone ask what happened in the Police van!?

Ya, it's like if you go into Jeffrey Dahmer's house and find a half-eaten guy on the kitchen table. You don't know who was eating him. Stop jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

 

[scombrid]

So being carried by by cops, feet dragging behind, and a bystander yelling that a leg looks broke is "under his own power"? M'kay.

Wouldn't that contradict the cops' "Well he was fine when we put him in the van" position?

I mean if he's in that bad of shape, why did they ride him around? If he's in that bad of shape when they put him in the van, why are they telling us he was fine?

 

[RavenSky]

Yet entered the van under his own power - NOT something you would expect with a pre-existing spinal cord injury.

On the other hand, being thrown head first into the van after having your legs shackled (and your hands already cuffed) could have caused the injury

So being carried by by cops, feet dragging behind, and a bystander yelling that a leg looks broke is "under his own power"? M'kay.

Watch the video before you make an ass of yourself with the snark :rollingeyes: He is standing on the edge of the van, on his own legs, and turns to look at something behind the cops before turning back around to duck into the van.