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Debt: The fabric of our lives

AthenaAwakened

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Debt is central to most Americans’ life experience. We obtain housing, education, transport and medical services through our access to credit — and as such we spend most of our lives deeply indebted. How dispiriting debt is; it gnaws at us, this non-dischargeable burden.

But most Americans begin life woefully undercapitalized for the life we lead — we are unable to purchase homes, raise families, provide for medical care or retirement, or even buy cars and refrigerators, from our own resources. Rather, we stealthily borrow to enjoy “basic” requirements, taking comfort, I suppose, in the notion that everyone does it. And Americans are, of course, rich. The life cycle of most Americans involves getting a job and then using one’s anticipated future income to access credit, which is then used for obtaining life’s necessities (and then some). The resulting debt persists thereafter; we no longer celebrate paying off mortgages, we refinance and extend up through the hour of our death.

The economy thrives when we take on debt. Indeed, assuming our fair share of debt can be seen as an American duty. Without the fuel of debt (that is, without access to credit) the American economy can and will collapse. The ongoing economic malaise results in part from the deleveraging of American households, depressing our consumption. Consumer debt drives the American economy — America is built on debt.

...

Debt is a larger phenomenon, of course, than our personal obligations. Our institutions are also indebted. Pity our “poor” universities, saddled by witless borrowings to pay for tony student centers, luxo-dorms, and pampered professors. Cities and towns cut back on public services as debt takes greater bites from budgets. States watch their credit ratings slide with each new social program. Indeed, a progressive’s take on the current budgetary stalemate (the proverbial Fiscal Cliff) involves a cynical embrace of public debt reduction by the “fiscal conservatives” in order to justify rollback of social entitlements.

The current financial stress has revealed all these points of weakness. And even at the highest level of social organization — the interactions among sovereign nation-states — we find debt everywhere. There is the unconscionable and unpayable debt owed by the world’s poorest countries; if any debt merits a Jubilee it is certainly this. But even rich countries (the United States first among them) are significantly indebted.

...

debt is not a neutral social institution. It is first and foremost an institution allowing for the exercise of power. Debt is the foundation of hierarchy and hence much social structure. Its presence marks the divided spheres of our lives: between the “communist” family and small community domains where obligations reflect caring, resist quantification and meld into a richer cultural and moral life, and the larger, grossly more impersonal economy with its rigid demands.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/06/debt_is_ingrained_in_americas_way_of_life/

To say that a person's indebtedness or credit worthiness is merely a reflection of that person's individual choices is limited thinking in the extreme to say the least.
 
Debt is central to most Americans’ life experience. We obtain housing, education, transport and medical services through our access to credit — and as such we spend most of our lives deeply indebted. How dispiriting debt is; it gnaws at us, this non-dischargeable burden.

But most Americans begin life woefully undercapitalized for the life we lead — we are unable to purchase homes, raise families, provide for medical care or retirement, or even buy cars and refrigerators, from our own resources. Rather, we stealthily borrow to enjoy “basic” requirements, taking comfort, I suppose, in the notion that everyone does it. And Americans are, of course, rich. The life cycle of most Americans involves getting a job and then using one’s anticipated future income to access credit, which is then used for obtaining life’s necessities (and then some). The resulting debt persists thereafter; we no longer celebrate paying off mortgages, we refinance and extend up through the hour of our death.

The economy thrives when we take on debt. Indeed, assuming our fair share of debt can be seen as an American duty. Without the fuel of debt (that is, without access to credit) the American economy can and will collapse. The ongoing economic malaise results in part from the deleveraging of American households, depressing our consumption. Consumer debt drives the American economy — America is built on debt.

...

Debt is a larger phenomenon, of course, than our personal obligations. Our institutions are also indebted. Pity our “poor” universities, saddled by witless borrowings to pay for tony student centers, luxo-dorms, and pampered professors. Cities and towns cut back on public services as debt takes greater bites from budgets. States watch their credit ratings slide with each new social program. Indeed, a progressive’s take on the current budgetary stalemate (the proverbial Fiscal Cliff) involves a cynical embrace of public debt reduction by the “fiscal conservatives” in order to justify rollback of social entitlements.

The current financial stress has revealed all these points of weakness. And even at the highest level of social organization — the interactions among sovereign nation-states — we find debt everywhere. There is the unconscionable and unpayable debt owed by the world’s poorest countries; if any debt merits a Jubilee it is certainly this. But even rich countries (the United States first among them) are significantly indebted.

...

debt is not a neutral social institution. It is first and foremost an institution allowing for the exercise of power. Debt is the foundation of hierarchy and hence much social structure. Its presence marks the divided spheres of our lives: between the “communist” family and small community domains where obligations reflect caring, resist quantification and meld into a richer cultural and moral life, and the larger, grossly more impersonal economy with its rigid demands.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/06/debt_is_ingrained_in_americas_way_of_life/

To say that a person's indebtedness or credit worthiness is merely a reflection of that person's individual choices is limited thinking in the extreme to say the least.

Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.
 
Nothing wrong with debt as long as one continually has the income to deal with it.

Nothing wrong with buying a home by borrowing. As long as you can make your payments.

The reason debt looks so ominous is because wages haven't risen in real terms in decades and it is very easy to find yourself out of work with no replacement in modern day speculative capitalism.
 
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/06/debt_is_ingrained_in_americas_way_of_life/

To say that a person's indebtedness or credit worthiness is merely a reflection of that person's individual choices is limited thinking in the extreme to say the least.

Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.
And I would question education. Choosing an Ivy League school would make it damned difficult but many people pay for their education in state schools by working part time during school sessions and full time during school breaks. The added plus for this is that they have work experience to put on their resume after graduation that puts them a leg up competing for a job. There are also many scholarships that can help, especially for the needy.

The trap many fall into with buying a house is that they buy a more expensive house than they can really afford which straps them financially, leaving nothing for emergencies.
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Indeed, assuming our fair share of debt can be seen as an American duty.

That sentence taken from the link begs for us to use an adhominum attack towards the author.[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Indeed, assuming our fair share of debt can be seen as an American duty.

That sentence taken from the link begs for us to use an adhominum attack towards the author.[/FONT]

That's what GW Bush , boy genius, said after 911.

Go out and get in debt. Keep this damn stupid game going. I have mansions, and yachts, and you morons playing the game set up by the rich bought it all.

And the people feel the sucking from above.
 
Debt makes complete sense when the benefits of the item received last over a period of time.

The length of the debt should be no longer than the length of time the benefit of the item received will be.

This means that the expense for the thing being used (house, car, college education) is paid for as the benefit is being received, evening out the expense with the benefit, rather than having a benefit and expense mismatch.

Debt is bad when used for something like a vacation or for Christmas presents, when the benefits are quickly consumed but the expense associated with it continues on after that.

Similarly with government: if the debt is used to buy things like buildings, infrastructure, etc. - something which benefits the citizenry over a period of time, then debt is fine to pay for it - it matches the expense (taxation to pay for the debt) with the benefit received if the publicly owned property (current taxpayers).
 
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/06/debt_is_ingrained_in_americas_way_of_life/

To say that a person's indebtedness or credit worthiness is merely a reflection of that person's individual choices is limited thinking in the extreme to say the least.

Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.

A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.
 
Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.

A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.
I would add the general category that using debt to purchase appreciating assets that are within a person's risk tolerance is good.
 
Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.

A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.
I would disagree with the car loan being necessary. Sure personal transportation is necessary for many, many people but that doesn't mean they need a new car that they can't afford - though they may want one as a status symbol. An older used car is much cheaper to buy, the insurance is much lower, and the advalorum taxes are much lower. Someone can save enough in these costs alone (not to mention the cost of interest payments) over five years, or even less, of driving an old car as opposed to a new car to buy another used car.
 
A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.
I would disagree with the car loan being necessary. Sure personal transportation is necessary for many, many people but that doesn't mean they need a new car that they can't afford - though they may want one as a status symbol. An older used car is much cheaper to buy, the insurance is much lower, and the advalorum taxes are much lower. Someone can save enough in these costs alone (not to mention the cost of interest payments) over five years, or even less, of driving an old car as opposed to a new car to buy another used car.

You can still get a loan on an older car. I bought a 2 year old car and got a 3% interest loan on it. I could've paid for the car in full by drawing on my HELOC but it turns out the HELOC not only had a higher interest rate, but it freed up those funds to be used for my business I decided to start a year later.

As far as insurance goes, I guess it depends on whether you were planning to get full coverage insurance anyway or just want liability. Yeah, if your goal is to play it a little bit risky and pass on full coverage to save some money, then you'll have to buy the car outright.
 
I would disagree with the car loan being necessary. Sure personal transportation is necessary for many, many people but that doesn't mean they need a new car that they can't afford - though they may want one as a status symbol. An older used car is much cheaper to buy, the insurance is much lower, and the advalorum taxes are much lower. Someone can save enough in these costs alone (not to mention the cost of interest payments) over five years, or even less, of driving an old car as opposed to a new car to buy another used car.

You can still get a loan on an older car. I bought a 2 year old car and got a 3% interest loan on it.
I don't disagree that people can and do get car loans for used cars. I was saying that it was not necessarily a necessity. If you had any savings then you could have likely bought a 4 year old car for cash, or maybe even the car you bought if you were willing to use your savings. My position is that car loans are not absolutely necessary if someone is willing to drive older cars.
 
Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.
I agree.
Any borrowing is a gamble. The safest course is to buy only what you can afford out-of-pocket.

You may have to defer gratification for a few years, and buy a cheaper version of what you want, but, in the long run, you'll never know the threat of debt, and the interest payments you've avoided will grow.

It seems to me that spending $300,000 for a house listed at $100,000, putting your family in debt and at a lower economic status for thirty years, when you could have endured a lower economic status for a few years, bought it for cash, and put $200,000 to your own needs might be the better and more secure choice.
 
Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.
I agree.
Any borrowing is a gamble. The safest course is to buy only what you can afford out-of-pocket.

You may have to defer gratification for a few years, and buy a cheaper version of what you want, but, in the long run, you'll never know the threat of debt, and the interest payments you've avoided will grow.

It seems to me that spending $300,000 for a house listed at $100,000, putting your family in debt and at a lower economic status for thirty years, when you could have endured a lower economic status for a few years, bought it for cash, and put $200,000 to your own needs might be the better and more secure choice.
Oh come on, you don't want at least some chance of bankruptcy? Axulus has a much (much) higher tolerance for risk. Of course, even he has limits ... oh, how did he put it, some underlying premise that the length of time to pay back ought not exceed the life expectancy of the product or service. He even added a car loan. Piles and piles of risk, just so long as the term matches (at a maximum) the useful life of the debt service. Gotta tell ya, you two are at opposite extremes, and your advice path is slow and conservative while his is expedient and liberal. Yours is safe. His is very (very) high risk. I'm not in the middle. I'm closer to you. I would allow for a house though.
 
Nothing wrong with debt as long as one continually has the income to deal with it.

Nothing wrong with buying a home by borrowing. As long as you can make your payments.

The reason debt looks so ominous is because wages haven't risen in real terms in decades and it is very easy to find yourself out of work with no replacement in modern day speculative capitalism.

No. One should not factor wage increases into borrowing decisions.

- - - Updated - - -

Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.
And I would question education. Choosing an Ivy League school would make it damned difficult but many people pay for their education in state schools by working part time during school sessions and full time during school breaks. The added plus for this is that they have work experience to put on their resume after graduation that puts them a leg up competing for a job. There are also many scholarships that can help, especially for the needy.

The trap many fall into with buying a house is that they buy a more expensive house than they can really afford which straps them financially, leaving nothing for emergencies.

While I do agree Ivy League schools are overpriced a student without parental support most likely needs loans to get any college degree.
 
Our gotta-have-it-now! idea is a personal choice. There are really only two things you really need to borrow for: Education and a house. Everything else is almost always wants, not needs.

A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.

You likely can get a cheap car when you're starting out and then put the money you would use on a car payment aside to buy the next one.

As for a business, it depends on what sort of business. Since many can be started without loans I wouldn't put it as really need to.
 
A car should be added to that category as well. Also, starting a business.

You likely can get a cheap car when you're starting out and then put the money you would use on a car payment aside to buy the next one.

As for a business, it depends on what sort of business. Since many can be started without loans I wouldn't put it as really need to.

Why does it depend on the sort of business? Costs? If the costs are astronomical, that doesn't mean loans must be on the table. It could mean that another business choice is in order. It could mean (possibly) that starting small is the path to take. If starting small isn't optional, then perhaps starting that business with the current state of financial affairs needs to come off the table.

It takes strength of character to let a great opportunity pass, and learning how to turn one's back on the pressure of time constraints is a very uplifting experience that severely minimizes regret. I've heard people speak of chances of a life time, but the life-time chance is in being able to walk away in face of great desire. Make decisions, yes we should, and being decisive is perhaps a virtue, and a risk-taker, I surely am, but a gambler mind-set is not the way to go.

It doesn't depend on the business. At least, it shouldn't.
 
You likely can get a cheap car when you're starting out and then put the money you would use on a car payment aside to buy the next one.

As for a business, it depends on what sort of business. Since many can be started without loans I wouldn't put it as really need to.

Why does it depend on the sort of business? Costs? If the costs are astronomical, that doesn't mean loans must be on the table. It could mean that another business choice is in order. It could mean (possibly) that starting small is the path to take. If starting small isn't optional, then perhaps starting that business with the current state of financial affairs needs to come off the table.

It takes strength of character to let a great opportunity pass, and learning how to turn one's back on the pressure of time constraints is a very uplifting experience that severely minimizes regret. I've heard people speak of chances of a life time, but the life-time chance is in being able to walk away in face of great desire. Make decisions, yes we should, and being decisive is perhaps a virtue, and a risk-taker, I surely am, but a gambler mind-set is not the way to go.

It doesn't depend on the business. At least, it shouldn't.

Both my wife and I started service-type businesses for under $1000. No need to borrow.
 
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