France: Just Another Regressive Left Shithole

[JonA]

So, I'd rather they have to choose between the putting sex slaves in prison and making the whole profession fully legal.

Why are those the only option?

Even if prostitution is illegal, can't there be an exemption in charging people who are victims of sex trafficking?

(Of course it should be legal and the demonstrations in the streets are telling me that French sex workers are pissed about being treated like society's low down unfortunate filth too pathetic to make their own decisions just cause they want to give a fuck and make a buck.)

 

[KeepTalking]

Pathetic. Just pathetic. And sad.

That's a pretty accurate description of the OP, but it is rather meta. Did you have some other point to make?

 

[Underseer]

What do the weirdoes mean by 'left', I always wonder. Normal or human. I suppose

To the FOX News crowd, there are only three political ideologies in the entire world: libertarianism, conservatism (which are completely different, I swear!), and everything else. Thus, words like communism, socialism, fascism, anarchism, etc. can be used interchangeably because they all mean the same thing.

That's what they mean by "left."

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So, I'd rather they have to choose between the putting sex slaves in prison and making the whole profession fully legal.

Why are those the only option?

Even if prostitution is illegal, can't there be an exemption in charging people who are victims of sex trafficking?

(Of course it should be legal and the demonstrations in the streets are telling me that French sex workers are pissed about being treated like society's low down unfortunate filth too pathetic to make their own decisions just cause they want to give a fuck and make a buck.)

Why are we spending so much time talking about the legalization of prostitution?

I thought the thread was supposed to be about how horrible everything is in France because they don't watch enough FOX News or something.

 

[ronburgundy]

So, I'd rather they have to choose between the putting sex slaves in prison and making the whole profession fully legal.

Why are those the only option?

Even if prostitution is illegal, can't there be an exemption in charging people who are victims of sex trafficking?

Which prostitutes won't claim they are victims of sex trafficking to get out of prosecution? None.
And many that are victims won't have clear cut evidence of it, so they will be prosecuted. IOW, there will plenty of false positive and false negatives in the categorization of which are victims and which are not. That means any prosecution of the sex workers, will result in some victims being prosecuted. So the real choices are either we don't arrest anyone except for "employers" or clients that commit other crimes of assault, kidnapping, blackmail, etc. (aka legalize prostitution itself), or we arrest anyone involved in prostitution except the sex workers (what France is doing), or we arrest anyone engaged in prostitution including workers who are not clearly "slaves", which will mean arresting many who cannot "prove" it, but are in fact coerced and threatened victims and people with mental health problems due to childhood abuse.

 

[laughing dog]

Ideally, if the goal is to dramatically reduce the amount of trafficked sex slaves, then legalizing prostitution with licensed sex workers coupled with drastic fines and punishment for promoting and pimping prostitution with unlicensed sex workers would be more effective. In addition, the licensing would include documenting the status of the sex workers, perhaps even requiring a waiting period for verification. In the case of illegal prostitution, the treatment of the sex worker would depend on whether or not she or he was a sex slave or not. Such a scheme would dramatically increase the costs of using trafficked sex workers and reduce the demand for illegal prostitution, thereby reducing the profits in France made by such traffickers.

However, politics is the art of compromise. Perhaps there was no majority to set up such a scheme (or an analogous one). It is a blunt first step approach to a documented real French problem. The French population is neither stupid nor silly. Sometimes real progress takes time.

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Why are we spending so much time talking about the legalization of prostitution?

Maybe some people are planning their next trip to France.

 

[ronburgundy]

Ideally, if the goal is to dramatically reduce the amount of trafficked sex slaves, then legalizing prostitution with licensed sex workers coupled with drastic fines and punishment for promoting and pimping prostitution with unlicensed sex workers would be more effective. In addition, the licensing would include documenting the status of the sex workers, perhaps even requiring a waiting period for verification. In the case of illegal prostitution, the treatment of the sex worker would depend on whether or not she or he was a sex slave or not. Such a scheme would dramatically increase the costs of using trafficked sex workers and reduce the demand for illegal prostitution, thereby reducing the profits in France made by such traffickers.

However, politics is the art of compromise. Perhaps there was no majority to set up such a scheme (or an analogous one). It is a blunt first step approach to a documented real French problem. The French population is neither stupid nor silly. Sometimes real progress takes time.

This presumes that the resistance to legality and the resistance to prosecuting the sex workers is not coming from the same people, and it is very plausible that it is.
France doesn't have a strong religious right that would be capable of keeping it illegal against the will of the rather liberal mainstream. It is likely that many leftists are behind its illegality and thus helping create the criminal underworld that lead to the sex slaves which they don't want to prosecute. IOW, stupid and silly people who are only "compromising" with their internally incoherent illogical selves could very easily be responsible for this law.

 

[laughing dog]

This presumes that the resistance to legality and the resistance to prosecuting the sex workers is not coming from the same people, and it is very plausible that it is...

The only presumption it makes it that there are different blocs with different motives, and no single bloc has enough power to push its agenda through. I am not an expert on French politics nor do I pretend to be. Sometimes, the result of the legislative process is less than desirable because of the necessity for compromise.

 

[ronburgundy]

This presumes that the resistance to legality and the resistance to prosecuting the sex workers is not coming from the same people, and it is very plausible that it is...

The only presumption it makes it that there are different blocs with different motives, and no single bloc has enough power to push its agenda through. I am not an expert on French politics nor do I pretend to be. Sometimes, the result of the legislative process is less than desirable because of the necessity for compromise.

That is what I said. It presumes there is a sufficient pro illegal bloc that does not overlap with the bloc that doesn't want to prosecute sex workers. If those bloc overlap, then it is not a product of "compromise" but of the morons fighting to make it illegal and fighting to no prosecute sex workers. Without those people there wouldn't be enough support for illegality and the sane people who don't want to prosecute sex slave and also realize legality is the best approach would win.

 

[laughing dog]

The only presumption it makes it that there are different blocs with different motives, and no single bloc has enough power to push its agenda through. I am not an expert on French politics nor do I pretend to be. Sometimes, the result of the legislative process is less than desirable because of the necessity for compromise.

That is what I said. It presumes there is a sufficient pro illegal bloc that does not overlap with the bloc that doesn't want to prosecute sex workers. If those bloc overlap, then it is not a product of "compromise" but of the morons fighting to make it illegal and fighting to no prosecute sex workers. Without those people there wouldn't be enough support for illegality and the sane people who don't want to prosecute sex slave and also realize legality is the best approach would win.

What if the block that does not wish to prosecute sex workers includes people who wish to make prostitution legal? Unless you have specific information about the diversity and sizes of the different possible blocs, pinning down the exact rationales is not possible.

 

[ronburgundy]

That is what I said. It presumes there is a sufficient pro illegal bloc that does not overlap with the bloc that doesn't want to prosecute sex workers. If those bloc overlap, then it is not a product of "compromise" but of the morons fighting to make it illegal and fighting to no prosecute sex workers. Without those people there wouldn't be enough support for illegality and the sane people who don't want to prosecute sex slave and also realize legality is the best approach would win.

What if the block that does not wish to prosecute sex workers includes people who wish to make prostitution legal? Unless you have specific information about the diversity and sizes of the different possible blocs, pinning down the exact rationales is not possible.

Yes, there are many possibilities, which is why you are incorrect to presume this is a result of "compromise" and not a result of too many French people being "stupid or silly". They are quite capable of it, just as Americans are. I am not claiming, it is for sure a result of incoherent morons who support both illegality and not prosecuting the sex workers because they are already mistreated due partly to the illegal market these morons created. I am just saying that this is a very plausible possibility, especially since it seems unlikely that illegal prostitution would have enough support if in France, if it were only supported by sexual prudes whose opposition isn't about concern for mistreatment of sex workers.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What if the block that does not wish to prosecute sex workers includes people who wish to make prostitution legal? Unless you have specific information about the diversity and sizes of the different possible blocs, pinning down the exact rationales is not possible.

Yes, there are many possibilities, which is why you are incorrect to presume this is a result of "compromise" and not a result of too many French people being "stupid or silly". They are quite capable of it, just as Americans are. I am not claiming, it is for sure a result of incoherent morons who support both illegality and not prosecuting the sex workers because they are already mistreated due partly to the illegal market these morons created. I am just saying that this is a very plausible possibility, especially since it seems unlikely that illegal prostitution would have enough support if in France, if it were only supported by sexual prudes whose opposition isn't about concern for mistreatment of sex workers.

If you read news articles you will find that, no, it wasn't about that.

 

[prideandfall]

If you read news articles you will find that, no, it wasn't about that.

if living in the US and spending my life observing priests and preachers and politicians has taught me anything, it's that what people say the reasons are for the things they do and the ACTUAL reasons for the things they do are rarely aligned.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

If you read news articles you will find that, no, it wasn't about that.

if living in the US and spending my life observing priests and preachers and politicians has taught me anything, it's that what people say the reasons are for the things they do and the ACTUAL reasons for the things they do are rarely aligned.

Personally I am not a prude and I have concern about minors, sex trafficking, violent pimps, and trauma. It doesn't mean I agree with their conclusion 100% or even 60%.

 

[arkirk]

if living in the US and spending my life observing priests and preachers and politicians has taught me anything, it's that what people say the reasons are for the things they do and the ACTUAL reasons for the things they do are rarely aligned.

Personally I am not a prude and I have concern about minors, sex trafficking, violent pimps, and trauma. It doesn't mean I agree with their conclusion 100% or even 60%.

So England had Tony Blair who supposedly represented Labor, but actually was just another warhawk. France's problem is the tentacles of the old empire it tried to maintain and still can't quite get over having lost control over it. Its leader today Hollande is more a nationalist than a socialist. But to call France left is to ignore how it acts. It is actually a fractured society with extreme right wing nuts on one side of the scale and nationalistic Socialists on the other and neither side being too concerned with anything but power. About the only part of the OP I would agree with...It is somewhat of a shithole but it still makes good wine.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes, there are many possibilities, which is why you are incorrect to presume this is a result of "compromise" and not a result of too many French people being "stupid or silly"....

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I said it was a possibility (hint - the term perhaps does not indicate certainty). A compromise is certainly more plausible than your theory about French being stupid or silly.

 

[Derec]

Yes, there are many possibilities, which is why you are incorrect to presume this is a result of "compromise" and not a result of too many French people being "stupid or silly"....

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I said it was a possibility (hint - the term perhaps does not indicate certainty). A compromise is certainly more plausible than your theory about French being stupid or silly.

Given that the law before the change was that sex work was legal and that the left wingers announced their intention to impose the Swedish model, your "compromise" hypothesis does not hold water.

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What if the block that does not wish to prosecute sex workers includes people who wish to make prostitution legal?

Then they should have left the status quo.

Unless you have specific information about the diversity and sizes of the different possible blocs, pinning down the exact rationales is not possible.

The parliamentarians who passed this law were pretty explicit about their intentions.

 

[Derec]

What do the weirdoes mean by 'left', I always wonder. Normal or human. I suppose

Certainly not in this case. As authoritarian and illiberal and any right wingers can be.

 

[Derec]

So Derec do you really have some statistics on this?

No. My point is that even if their statistics is legit, their conclusion isn't.

Also, do you have any conflicts of interest in determining a conclusion?

You call it conflict of interest, I call it first hand experience.

I don't. To both JonA and Derec, I did not say anywhere that I 100% support the conclusion. I just wrote what the facts are that break down the typical way libertarians/masculinists/wingers/whatever conceptualize the argument. Indeed it is far more complicated than that. If you're going to make threads about the issue while supporting your stance you're going to have to include such facts and show your work. Just posting "France is a shithole" isn't good enough. I'm not going to sit around playing devil's advocate or tit-for-tat all day either because it's not my onus.

You say it is "far more complicated than that". Exactly. That's why the broad brush "solution" now passed as law is such a bad idea. It attempts to flatten complexities with simplistic "sex worker victims, customers criminal" assignments that bear no relationship to reality.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It attempts to flatten complexities with simplistic "sex worker victims, customers criminal" assignments that bear no relationship to reality.

They do bear a relationship to reality though Derec.

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I said it was a possibility (hint - the term perhaps does not indicate certainty). A compromise is certainly more plausible than your theory about French being stupid or silly.

Given that the law before the change was that sex work was legal and that the left wingers announced their intention to impose the Swedish model, your "compromise" hypothesis does not hold water.

Actually, given what you wrote, it does to anyone who can reason.

Then they should have left the status quo.

And if they were not strong enough to do so? Really, do you even bother to think outside your very restricted box of memes?

The parliamentarians who passed this law were pretty explicit about their intentions.

Thenyou should have no trouble showing the size of each block and their motivations with actual data.