DOJ demands Berkley make free online education materials accessible to disabled, Berkley planning to remove the materials as a result

[Axulus]

In the "you can't make this shit up" category, we have the following:

The Department of Justice has sent a letter to UC Berkeley threatening a lawsuit unless the university modifies all of its free online educational materials to meet conditions of accessibility. In response the Vice Chancellor for Undergraduate Education writes:

…we have attempted to maximize the accessibility of free, online content that we have made available to the public. Nevertheless, the Department of Justice has recently asserted that the University is in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act because, in its view, not all of the free course and lecture content UC Berkeley makes available on certain online platforms is fully accessible to individuals with hearing, visual or manual disabilities.

…We look forward to continued dialog with the Department of Justice regarding the requirements of the ADA and options for compliance. Yet we do so with the realization that, due to our current financial constraints, we might not be able to continue to provide free public content under the conditions laid out by the Department of Justice to the extent we have in the past.

In many cases the requirements proposed by the department would require the university to implement extremely expensive measures to continue to make these resources available to the public for free. We believe that in a time of substantial budget deficits and shrinking state financial support, our first obligation is to use our limited resources to support our enrolled students. Therefore, we must strongly consider the unenviable option of whether to remove content from public access.

In short, the DOJ is saying that unless all have access, none can and UC Berkeley is replying that none will.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/09/egalitarianism-versus-online-education.html

 

[repoman]

 

[zorq]

This sounds unreasonable. Public libraries must have wheelchair ramps, sure. But I don't think there is any requirement that every book they stock must be offered in a medium convenient for the visually impaired. Otherwise almost EVERY library in the country would be in violation of the ADA. Similarly, I don't see why offering SOME free educational materials online would violate the ADA.

 

[Axulus]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

 

[zorq]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

I doubt it. It was probably one frustrated person with disabilities who couldn't take a javascript powered quiz with their braille reader and filed the ADA complaint as retaliation/hope for improvement in the future.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. That holds here too.
When you have the choice between blaming inefficient bureaucracy, or a malevolent conspiracy, It's probably just the bureaucracy.

 

[Axulus]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

I doubt it. It was probably one frustrated person with disabilities who couldn't take a javascript powered quiz with their braille reader and filed the ADA complaint as retaliation/hope for improvement in the future.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. That holds here too.
When you have the choice between blaming inefficient bureaucracy, or a malevolent conspiracy, It's probably just the bureaucracy.

Someone filing a compliant doesn't mean the DOJ is obligated to file a lawsuit over it, that is their choice. They are making the claim that the ADA requires that UC Berekley make its free online materials "fully accessible to individuals with hearing, visual or manual disabilities" and are threatening to file a lawsuit to enforce it.

 

[laughing dog]

Since when does "we must strongly consider x" mean "we will do x"?

 

[zorq]

I doubt it. It was probably one frustrated person with disabilities who couldn't take a javascript powered quiz with their braille reader and filed the ADA complaint as retaliation/hope for improvement in the future.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. That holds here too.
When you have the choice between blaming inefficient bureaucracy, or a malevolent conspiracy, It's probably just the bureaucracy.

Someone filing a compliant doesn't mean the DOJ is obligated to file a lawsuit over it, that is their choice. They are making the claim that the ADA requires that UC Berekley make its free online materials "fully accessible to individuals with hearing, visual or manual disabilities" and are threatening to file a lawsuit to enforce it.

Are you seriously still proposing a secret conspiracy between teacher unions and the DOJ (why would they conspire together? And you realize that Berkeley ALREDY IS a brick and mortar educational institution right?) to shut down free information on the internet rolleyes: as if free information wasn't already available everywhere in the information age) as a more likely scenario than the legitimate complaint that the website published by a quazi-governmental entity doesn't work for disabled people? And that MIGHT be illegal according to the ADA?

I think it shouldn't be illegal, but the ADA was written in the early 90's before politicians were cognizant the internet. Laws need to be reviewed from time to time as the societies that use them change. It might be time to review this one but that won't happen until it is proven to have failed in some way.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

Actually we aren't threatened at all. The vast majority of students prefer in-person instruction, and this shows in enrollments in courses with in-person and online options. I hear regular complaints about having to take an online course because the in-person sections are closed. Online courses are expensive to produce, but hey do have their place within education. As for party affiliation, Conservatives like to demonize any educators.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Looks like the DOJ is looking to have all of Berkley's MOOCs on Youtube and iTunes converted.

 

[laughing dog]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

How would extending this already free material to the remaining small segment of the potential student population protect jobs?

 

[barbos]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

But these are courses from the same universities. They are essentially recorded lectures. And it is usually very basic, introductory and fairly entertaining courses. Real courses with actual math are much harder to convert into this form.
But I do see the future where AI can replace boring part of teaching, eventually.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

And am I too cynical to think this might be motivated, at least in part, by a desire to protecting bricks-and-mortar educational institutions against competition from free, online courses? After all, both K12 teachers and university faculty — whose jobs might eventually be threatened by the success of online education — are the among the most loyal of the Democratic Party base.

But these are courses from the same universities. They are essentially recorded lectures. And it is usually very basic, introductory and fairly entertaining courses. Real courses with actual math are much harder to convert into this form.
But I do see the future where AI can replace boring part of teaching, eventually.

I'm looking forward to Matrix-style education where we can just plug the information directly into our brain and become experts in the subject matter after just a few seconds.

 

[JonA]

But these are courses from the same universities. They are essentially recorded lectures. And it is usually very basic, introductory and fairly entertaining courses. Real courses with actual math are much harder to convert into this form.
But I do see the future where AI can replace boring part of teaching, eventually.

I'm looking forward to Matrix-style education where we can just plug the information directly into our brain and become experts in the subject matter after just a few seconds.

That's not education. That's downloading.

 

[barbos]

I'm looking forward to Matrix-style education where we can just plug the information directly into our brain and become experts in the subject matter after just a few seconds.

That's not education. That's downloading.

Education is often downloading

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's not education. That's downloading.

Education is often downloading

Ya, what's the difference? You read a book or attend a lecture and update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information - or you just update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information. Education does nothing except get you to an end state. Whatever method you use to arrive at that end state still has you at the same end state.

 

[barbos]

Education is often downloading

Ya, what's the difference? You read a book or attend a lecture and update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information - or you just update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information. Education does nothing except get you to an end state. Whatever method you use to arrive at that end state still has you at the same end state.

yes, you described downloading. But not all education is downloading, some involves thinking.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, what's the difference? You read a book or attend a lecture and update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information - or you just update the neural connections in your brain to hold new information. Education does nothing except get you to an end state. Whatever method you use to arrive at that end state still has you at the same end state.

yes, you described downloading. But not all education is downloading, some involves thinking.

So what? Code and insert that as well. It's nothing but patterns of electrical signals.

 

[atrib]

But these are courses from the same universities. They are essentially recorded lectures. And it is usually very basic, introductory and fairly entertaining courses. Real courses with actual math are much harder to convert into this form.
But I do see the future where AI can replace boring part of teaching, eventually.

I'm looking forward to Matrix-style education where we can just plug the information directly into our brain and become experts in the subject matter after just a few seconds.

You should read the short story "Profession" in Asimov's Nine Tomorrows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Tomorrows

There are interesting side effects to being educated by instant download to the brain.

 

[Malintent]

The educational facility accepts public money under certain terms. If those terms include that any material they offer as educational content must be accessible in the way the DoJ is asserting, then they have to do that for all of their content.
Besides simply taking down the 'non-compliant' content there is another option. They can 'gift' the content to an organization that does not take public money, under terms that the receiving organization maintains the online access to it. Then, the educational facility is no longer offering that free content, but the content is still available to the public (although it may find itself covered in Ads and other click-bait).