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Standing Rock brutality, Young Turks blast Obama administration

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Starting at around five minutes, one of the commentators really nails the situation.

You want to know why Democratic voters and Republican voters have turned on both establishments? Because of this kind of stuff right here. Rich people and large corporations can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and expect that they will never be held accountable.

This is not OK. This was never OK.
 


Starting at around five minutes, one of the commentators really nails the situation.

You want to know why Democratic voters and Republican voters have turned on both establishments? Because of this kind of stuff right here. Rich people and large corporations can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and expect that they will never be held accountable.

This is not OK. This was never OK.


Oh, I'm sure that Trump the Messiah will improve conditions and fight the evil corporations.
 


Starting at around five minutes, one of the commentators really nails the situation.

You want to know why Democratic voters and Republican voters have turned on both establishments? Because of this kind of stuff right here. Rich people and large corporations can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and expect that they will never be held accountable.

This is not OK. This was never OK.


Oh, I'm sure that Trump the Messiah will improve conditions and fight the evil corporations.


neither here nor there
 
Trump will do that as much as Obama, meaning not at all. But Hillary woulda wagged her impotent finger and told them to cut it out. Huge difference there eh?
 


Starting at around five minutes, one of the commentators really nails the situation.

You want to know why Democratic voters and Republican voters have turned on both establishments? Because of this kind of stuff right here. Rich people and large corporations can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and expect that they will never be held accountable.

This is not OK. This was never OK.


It is the rich glitterati like Mark Ruffalo, Susan Sarandon and Neal Young, etc. and billionaires like Tim Steyer that tend to oppose this pipeline. They can also afford to fuel their limos and private jets (oh the irony given their hostility to oil!) with $4/gal fuel that will be the reality if their goals of "no more pipelines" and "keep it in the ground" were to become reality and we had to get vast majority of our oil from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia.
It is the regular people who benefit from these construction projects. Directly through construction jobs, but also Bakken oil project is facilitated by this pipeline and it employs many people. And regular people feel the impact of higher oil prices or lower government revenues due to less domestic production (which generate taxes and royalty fees) much more than rich limousine liberals who support and fund these protests. Giving more money to unsavory regimes like Putinist Russia or Islamist Saudi Arabia also helps entrench and spread these ideologies.

Hillary should have come out in favor of this pipeline. Obama should not have delayed it (or killed Keystone XL, or blocked Arctic drilling etc.). I mean what happened to his "all of the above" approach? Bernie should not have sold out the working class people he claimed to be working for. Then Hillary would have stood better chance of winning the blue collar voters of Wisconsin or Pennsylvania.

It sucks what happened to this girl Sophia. She might have been throwing a stun grenade back at police or might have used an improvised explosive (these protests were anything but peaceful). Or she just might have been unlucky that a stun grenade hit her directly. We don't really know what happened. What we do know is that neither she nor the other 400 #nodapl activists should have been on that bridge that night. They were trying to force their way to the construction site to vandalize equipment or otherwise block construction, and that is not ok. That is not 'peaceful protesting'. That is not protected by the constitution.

Sophia Wilansky, all of 21 years old, has a history of illegal, disruptive activity. This summer she was arrested when trespassing at construction sites for gas pipelines in Vermont and Boston.

Pipeline demonstrators blocked Vt. Gas work at three Williston sites Monday

Grief and Resistance: The Mass Grave Pipeline Action

She was also a member of Shut it Down NYC, a radical group with the stated goal of, well, shutting down NYC.

P.S.: Damn, those photos look nasty!
sophia-1.jpg
arminjury3.png
sophia-2.jpg
From here. A biased article (not fitting the "freethought" moniker) but they are the only place I have seen these uncensored photos at.
 
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Those kids don't know how to do it. They are supposed to be heavily armed and threaten violence. That way they will be left alone and then acquitted in a trial.
 
Those kids don't know how to do it. They are supposed to be heavily armed and threaten violence. That way they will be left alone and then acquitted in a trial.
And one of them shot and killed. FBI did not use rubber bullets on Finicum. And many of these anti-pipeline idiots get acquitted or get their charges dropped too. So why derail this thread by harping on a few Malheur occupiers getting acquitted?
Judge throws out felony charges against several north camp protesters
 


Starting at around five minutes, one of the commentators really nails the situation.

You want to know why Democratic voters and Republican voters have turned on both establishments? Because of this kind of stuff right here. Rich people and large corporations can do whatever they want to whomever they want, and expect that they will never be held accountable.

This is not OK. This was never OK.


It is the rich glitterati like Mark Ruffalo, Susan Sarandon and Neal Young, etc. and billionaires like Tim Steyer that tend to oppose this pipeline. They can also afford to fuel their limos and private jets (oh the irony given their hostility to oil!) with $4/gal fuel that will be the reality if their goals of "no more pipelines" and "keep it in the ground" were to become reality and we had to get vast majority of our oil from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia.
It is the regular people who benefit from these construction projects. Directly through construction jobs, but also Bakken oil project is facilitated by this pipeline and it employs many people. And regular people feel the impact of higher oil prices or lower government revenues due to less domestic production (which generate taxes and royalty fees) much more than rich limousine liberals who support and fund these protests. Giving more money to unsavory regimes like Putinist Russia or Islamist Saudi Arabia also helps entrench and spread these ideologies.

Hillary should have come out in favor of this pipeline. Obama should not have delayed it (or killed Keystone XL, or blocked Arctic drilling etc.). I mean what happened to his "all of the above" approach? Bernie should not have sold out the working class people he claimed to be working for. Then Hillary would have stood better chance of winning the blue collar voters of Wisconsin or Pennsylvania.

It sucks what happened to this girl Sophia. She might have been throwing a stun grenade back at police or might have used an improvised explosive (these protests were anything but peaceful). Or she just might have been unlucky that a stun grenade hit her directly. We don't really know what happened. What we do know is that neither she nor the other 400 #nodapl activists should have been on that bridge that night. They were trying to force their way to the construction site to vandalize equipment or otherwise block construction, and that is not ok. That is not 'peaceful protesting'. That is not protected by the constitution.

Sophia Wilansky, all of 21 years old, has a history of illegal, disruptive activity. This summer she was arrested when trespassing at construction sites for gas pipelines in Vermont and Boston.

Pipeline demonstrators blocked Vt. Gas work at three Williston sites Monday

Grief and Resistance: The Mass Grave Pipeline Action


From here. A biased article (not fitting the "freethought" moniker) but they are the only place I have seen these uncensored photos at.


She might have been throwing a stun grenade back? That's heroic.
 
She might have been throwing a stun grenade back? That's heroic.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

A stun grenade doesn't have the power to do that kind of injury, period. And if you're throwing it back (crazy, the fuse is too short to be able to do this) it's your hand that would be hurt, not your arm. A contact wound from a stun grenade is a burn, not having your arm blown open to the bone like that.
 
She might have been throwing a stun grenade back? That's heroic.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

A stun grenade doesn't have the power to do that kind of injury, period. And if you're throwing it back (crazy, the fuse is too short to be able to do this) it's your hand that would be hurt, not your arm. A contact wound from a stun grenade is a burn, not having your arm blown open to the bone like that.

I was throwing it out as a possibility. The police themselves are claiming she blew herself up.
Propane cylinders recovered at explosion site of DAPL protest
Valley News said:
Law enforcement say around 3:00 a.m. November 21, protester activity had de-escalated near the Backwater Bridge, but they noticed two males and a female using a barricade to hide their activity.
Officials say they gave repeated orders for the three people to come out from behind the barricade and they attempted to force them out with “less than lethal” bean bags and sponge rounds. It was then the officers noticed the protesters approach and roll multiple metallic cylinder objects.
“The subjects were given opportunities to retreat back, but it became obvious that they were tampering with the vehicle or planting a device,” said Highway Patrol Lieutenant Tom Iverson. “Their strange mannerisms led law enforcement to believe they were there for a purpose with a calculated effort to either cause harm or breach the line.”
Lt. Iverson says after the cylinders were rolled, law enforcement witnessed an explosion. Several protesters ran to the area, pulled a female from under the vehicle, and fled the scene.
Law Enforcement received information that protesters were using one-pound propane cylinders as explosives and the North Dakota Bureau of Criminal Investigation with support from Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms recovered three of these propane canisters from the site of the explosion.

Her father is a lawyer, so I am sure there will be a huge lawsuit no matter what actually happened.
 
This doesn't make any sense at all.

A stun grenade doesn't have the power to do that kind of injury, period. And if you're throwing it back (crazy, the fuse is too short to be able to do this) it's your hand that would be hurt, not your arm. A contact wound from a stun grenade is a burn, not having your arm blown open to the bone like that.

I was throwing it out as a possibility. The police themselves are claiming she blew herself up.

I'm much more willing to believe that. That injury basically has to be from something going boom and throwing a large fragment. The only part of the police department that even has the capability of doing that is the bomb squad and there was neither an IED to be destroyed nor a barricade to be blown, they wouldn't have been doing that. Therefore it's almost certainly some kind of accident or a bomb made by the protesters.

I could easily buy someone getting careless with a propane tank as the cause.
 
She might have been throwing a stun grenade back? That's heroic.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

A stun grenade doesn't have the power to do that kind of injury, period. And if you're throwing it back (crazy, the fuse is too short to be able to do this) it's your hand that would be hurt, not your arm. A contact wound from a stun grenade is a burn, not having your arm blown open to the bone like that.

The explosive force from a flashbang is enough to blow off an extremity even without fragmentation if it's in close proximity to the body. There's a pretty gruesome video on the internet of a guy who was attempting to throw one back at police in 2014 from Ukraine which basically blew his hand off, as well as reports from other incidents as well. I'm not sure if that's what happened here, but it's not the impossibility you're claiming it is.
 
This doesn't make any sense at all.

A stun grenade doesn't have the power to do that kind of injury, period. And if you're throwing it back (crazy, the fuse is too short to be able to do this) it's your hand that would be hurt, not your arm. A contact wound from a stun grenade is a burn, not having your arm blown open to the bone like that.

The explosive force from a flashbang is enough to blow off an extremity even without fragmentation if it's in close proximity to the body. There's a pretty gruesome video on the internet of a guy who was attempting to throw one back at police in 2014 from Ukraine which basically blew his hand off, as well as reports from other incidents as well. I'm not sure if that's what happened here, but it's not the impossibility you're claiming it is.

There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.
 
The explosive force from a flashbang is enough to blow off an extremity even without fragmentation if it's in close proximity to the body. There's a pretty gruesome video on the internet of a guy who was attempting to throw one back at police in 2014 from Ukraine which basically blew his hand off, as well as reports from other incidents as well. I'm not sure if that's what happened here, but it's not the impossibility you're claiming it is.

There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.

He was lucky. Officer Fred Thornton died when his flash bang went off as he was trying to secure it.

Those things are dangerous.
 
There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.

He was lucky. Officer Fred Thornton died when his flash bang went off as he was trying to secure it.

Those things are dangerous.

And another story:

https://www.wired.com/2009/08/military-still-trying-to-replace-dangerous-stun-grenades/

“They immediately medevaced me back to the States… I lost my little finger, had severe nerve damage to my hand, and lost portions of the medial part of my left hand. My next year was spent having multiple surgeries and occupational therapy.”

To note here, while the grenades were defective - the defect was with the fuse and not the explosive. The physics of a device that can incapacitate someone within a meter or two is enough for me to not want it exploding within close proximity of me.

There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.

Same with this guy:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2ezCNvBeU[/YOUTUBE]

And the point is that flashbangs can cause serious damage - countering that with a case where it didn't is specious reasoning. Would you similarly advocate looking down the barrel of a gun after a hang-fire like ol' Elmer because it only cost him the use of his hat?
 
He was lucky. Officer Fred Thornton died when his flash bang went off as he was trying to secure it.

Those things are dangerous.

And another story:

https://www.wired.com/2009/08/military-still-trying-to-replace-dangerous-stun-grenades/

“They immediately medevaced me back to the States… I lost my little finger, had severe nerve damage to my hand, and lost portions of the medial part of my left hand. My next year was spent having multiple surgeries and occupational therapy.”

To note here, while the grenades were defective - the defect was with the fuse and not the explosive. The physics of a device that can incapacitate someone within a meter or two is enough for me to not want it exploding within close proximity of me.

There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.

Same with this guy:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2ezCNvBeU[/YOUTUBE]

And the point is that flashbangs can cause serious damage - countering that with a case where it didn't is specious reasoning. Would you similarly advocate looking down the barrel of a gun after a hang-fire like ol' Elmer because it only cost him the use of his hat?

Something to consider with explosives--how contained they are makes a big difference. A gripped explosive will do far more harm than the same charge simply sitting on you.

This wound was on her arm--how do you confine an explosive with your arm??


Also, a flashbang doesn't strike me as something you would throw at a protester in the first place. The purpose of a flashbang is a momentary stun as cover for an assault. You only throw them when you plan to enter the space just after the detonation and want to keep from being shot in the process. That's not a situation that would occur in a protest.
 
And another story:

https://www.wired.com/2009/08/military-still-trying-to-replace-dangerous-stun-grenades/

“They immediately medevaced me back to the States… I lost my little finger, had severe nerve damage to my hand, and lost portions of the medial part of my left hand. My next year was spent having multiple surgeries and occupational therapy.”

To note here, while the grenades were defective - the defect was with the fuse and not the explosive. The physics of a device that can incapacitate someone within a meter or two is enough for me to not want it exploding within close proximity of me.

There's a You-Tube video I saw some time ago, a SWAT officer made a mistake with a flashbang and it detonated in his pocket. No injury beyond his pride.

Same with this guy:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2ezCNvBeU[/YOUTUBE]

And the point is that flashbangs can cause serious damage - countering that with a case where it didn't is specious reasoning. Would you similarly advocate looking down the barrel of a gun after a hang-fire like ol' Elmer because it only cost him the use of his hat?

Something to consider with explosives--how contained they are makes a big difference. A gripped explosive will do far more harm than the same charge simply sitting on you.

This wound was on her arm--how do you confine an explosive with your arm??

Who says she confined the flashbang with her arm?

You appeared to be incredulous that a flashbang could do serious damage to a person's arm. You've been shown evidence the damn things can be lethal when they go off in close proximity. You can either accept that a flashbang can tear open huge gaping wounds on people not actually holding them or you can go find evidence they must be held against the body in order to cause that type of injury.

Also, a flashbang doesn't strike me as something you would throw at a protester in the first place. The purpose of a flashbang is a momentary stun as cover for an assault. You only throw them when you plan to enter the space just after the detonation and want to keep from being shot in the process. That's not a situation that would occur in a protest.

Right.

Just like police only use their trained attack dogs when lives are at stake, so the dogs biting unarmed people exercising their Constitutional right of free assembly isn't a situation that would occur at a protest. And they only use firefighting equipment when there's a fire and they're putting it out, so using fire hoses to blast peaceful protesters with high pressure streams of water isn't a situation that would occur at a protest.


Except when it does.
 
Also, a flashbang doesn't strike me as something you would throw at a protester in the first place. The purpose of a flashbang is a momentary stun as cover for an assault. You only throw them when you plan to enter the space just after the detonation and want to keep from being shot in the process. That's not a situation that would occur in a protest.

Right.

Just like police only use their trained attack dogs when lives are at stake, so the dogs biting unarmed people exercising their Constitutional right of free assembly isn't a situation that would occur at a protest. And they only use firefighting equipment when there's a fire and they're putting it out, so using fire hoses to blast peaceful protesters with high pressure streams of water isn't a situation that would occur at a protest.


Except when it does.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZLyUK0t0vQ[/YOUTUBE]
 


I like this guy, even though he is too liberal for my taste in general. At least he is old school liberal and not an identity politics, clickbait bullshit liberal...

What he said about if the water cannons sprayed racial euphemisms at the crowd, then it would be covered more by the Daily Beast is true.
 
I like this guy, even though he is too liberal for my taste in general. At least he is old school liberal and not an identity politics, clickbait bullshit liberal...
Wouldn't an "old school liberal" be in favor of the pipeline and domestic oil production in general because it provides well paying jobs for blue collar workers, it lowers gas prices (especially important for lower income people) and increases government revenue?

What he said about if the water cannons sprayed racial euphemisms at the crowd, then it would be covered more by the Daily Beast is true.
I have heard that it was actually the protesters who hurled racial insults at the police. But in any case, Daily Beast has written about #nodapl and quite favorably. Here is an especially egregious example, written by that guy who made Gasland.
Shot in the Back at Standing Rock
It is a very biased hit piece, but that is not even the worst thing. The worst thing are the glaring factual errors (or more likely deliberate lies).
Daily Beast said:
The moral soul of this continent is at Standing Rock, and at the moment that soul is being beaten, maced, pepper-sprayed, tear-gassed, and locked up by a militarized police force acting on behalf of foreign oil companies.

Quite an intro and already the first factual error/lie. Energy Transfer Partners is not a foreign company.
As North Dakota police lock up and abuse peaceful “water protectors,”
These activists are definitely not "peaceful". Second factual error/lie.
it becomes clear that the fight over the tribal land of Standing Rock is not only the primary battleground for indigenous sovereignty; it is the center of the fight for clean water, to fight climate change, and to ban hydraulic fracturing. At its base, this is a struggle between the people and a government corrupted by corporate power.
At least he is honest about the endgame/motive of the #nodapl activists and does not pretend this is all about the route of the pipeline.
Shale oil companies have dug up their backyards to transport some of this, the dirtiest, most polluting fuel on the planet, from another Indian reservation, Fort Berthold.
Third factual error/lie. Just last year the ecomentalists claimed "the dirtiest, most polluting fuel on the planet" was Canadian oil sands (Venezuelan oil sands were fine of course, because socialism covers a multitude of pollutants). Now it's supposedly the light sweet crude fracked from Bakken. Of course, neither could ever hold a candle to coal.
Their primary rallying cry was for their water. The Dakota Access Pipeline is slated to run beneath the Cannonball River, a tributary to the Missouri and part of a watershed that supplies 17 million people.
No, it is not slated to cross the Cannonball River, but the Missouri itself, just like many other pipelines.
The pipeline was originally planned to go through Bismarck, but the residents there objected and the Army Corps of Engineers along with Dakota Access Pipeline LLC decided to reroute it—straight through the Native American reservation.
When routing a pipeline it makes sense to avoid densely populated areas as much as possible. Bismarck is a city of some 70k people on 31 square miles. The population of the entire 3500 square miles of the Standing Rock reservation is under 10k. And of course, another glaring factual error/lie is that the pipeline is not going "straight through the reservation" but passing just north of it, and it is furthermore not close to any population centers in the reservation. And lastly, even this route is closer to Bismarck than to most points within the reservation because the reservation is so spread out (most of it is actually in South Dakota).
StandingRockReservation529px.png

Go ahead, and look for yourselves on Google Earth. Look at the current route passing through North Dakota and at the vicinity of Bismarck. Where would you route a pipeline through?
Routing the pipeline through Standing Rock Reservation rather than via the predominantly white state capital city is emblematic of a century’s worth of housing the most dangerous energy projects in communities of color.
Doubling down on the factual error/lie of the pipeline going through the reservation and accusing people of racism when a much simpler explanation is that it is better to avoid densely populated areas. Besides, there are some 3000 Indians living in Bismarck. Fewer Indians are probably affected by this route than would be by the Bismarck route. But, I know, to modern "liberals", it's identity politics über alles, über alles in der Welt!
But this is not a just a symbolic or abstract moment of environmental grandstanding. The Native Americans at Standing Rock have a real point when it comes to the danger to their water supply. Pipelines the world over leak at an alarming rate—more than 2,000 in the last two decades. “Since 2009, the annual number of significant accidents on oil and petroleum pipelines has shot up by almost 60 percent,” according to the Associated Press. In fact, the industry exists in what I call a permanent state of criminal negligence, and spills are more often the result of decades of neglect than chance malfunctions.
A new pipeline would not be affected by "decades of neglect". And yes, many pipelines in the US are 40 or 50 years old and the pipes need replacing. But pipeline operator would rather not do it when idiotic activists oppose each and every pipeline project.
Also, leak volumes are usually small. If this pipeline was such an existential danger to the Missouri, it would have been killed long since by the dozens of pipelines passing under it already.
 
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