Southern Baptists confront sexual abuse in churches

[Angry Floof]

Southern Baptists To Confront Sexual Abuse And Role Of Women In The Church

Well, good, I guess. It's about time "the right thing to do" took priority over tribalistic superiority complex and aversion to self correction.

But I won't hold my breath that there will be a new Southern Baptist denomination where women and children are safe and treated fairly by elders and pastors. When the most basic tenet of your ideology is "Do not question the authority figure or you'll burn in hell for eternity," I would not count on this new commitment to holding church authorities accountable to last very long.

"You're going to see a convention that is united in its agreement on the fact that this cannot be tolerated in our churches and that we have to do whatever it takes, regardless of what it costs us, to make our churches safe places," Greear told NPR.

Because clearly the conveniently invisible authority-of-authorities will not keep them safe.

It's always other human beings who keep people safe as well as hold people accountable. Always. This must be a real existential crisis for them.

 

[steve_bank]

Will they take on the Mormon polygamists? Teens are married to middle aged and older men.

 

[Angry Floof]

Will they take on the Mormon polygamists? Teens are married to middle aged and older men.

Why would the Southern Baptist convention take on Mormons?

Or is this an "all the other stupid religions do it, so don't criticize us" argument?

 

[steve_bank]

Will they take on the Mormon polygamists? Teens are married to middle aged and older men.

Why would the Southern Baptist convention take on Mormons?

Or is this an "all the other stupid religions do it, so don't criticize us" argument?

Don't have a freaking clue what you are rambling on about. It was not an argument, a question about Christian selective morality and actually doing the right thing across the board. Catholics, Jews, all of it.

It is not generally publicized. In the orthodox Jewish community in NYC there is a history of general wife abuse and non sexual child abuse. There are social programs to help children transition out of the culturem9nto mainstream society. It is ultra cloistered. Kids grow up never having been to a restaurant or store outside the community. Women have trouble escaping the environment.

 

[Angry Floof]

Will they take on the Mormon polygamists? Teens are married to middle aged and older men.

Why would the Southern Baptist convention take on Mormons?

Or is this an "all the other stupid religions do it, so don't criticize us" argument?

Don't have a freaking clue what you are rambling on about. It was not an argument, a question about Christian selective morality and actually doing the right thing across the board. Catholics, Jews, all of it.

It is not generally publicized. In the orthodox Jewish community in NYC there is a history of general wife abuse and non sexual child abuse. There are social programs to help children transition out of the culturem9nto mainstream society. It is ultra cloistered. Kids grow up never having been to a restaurant or store outside the community. Women have trouble escaping the environment.

In spite of your rambling here, I still ask, why would the SBC take on the issues of other religions?

Are you suggesting that groups like SBC would care about overall problems of controlling, patriarchal, authoritarian, ignorance-worshiping groups in the world? They'd have to become atheists or, at the very least, fundamentally reformed in their religious beliefs to recognize just what it is that they share with other groups and why abusers and predators find it so easy to take refuge among them.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

While it's a nice gesture on their part and clearly a step in the right direction, I won't be holding my breath waiting to see if they actually mean to do something about it or if this is just a PR statement which will allow them to look as if they're doing something about it without their actually then going and doing that something.

 

[Angry Floof]

While it's a nice gesture on their part and clearly a step in the right direction, I won't be holding my breath waiting to see if they actually mean to do something about it or if this is just a PR statement which will allow them to look as if they're doing something about it without their actually then going and doing that something.

I won't be holding mine, either. But I do believe there are a great many decent and concerned people in the SBC. If only they'd have the wherewithal to go the extra step in terms of reason and critical thinking and seek to understand the elements of their ideology that make their groups such cozy havens for predators.

Again, I truly believe they are largely caring, decent people, but they fail to extend that human empathy far enough to challenge their own beliefs. As long as they accept an authority figure (pastor, scripture, magical imaginary friend) to stand in place of their own conscience, they will serve as a liability to humanity and not in any way a force for good in a tribe of seven billion no matter how conscientious and good hearted they are within the group.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

While it's a nice gesture on their part and clearly a step in the right direction, I won't be holding my breath waiting to see if they actually mean to do something about it or if this is just a PR statement which will allow them to look as if they're doing something about it without their actually then going and doing that something.

I won't be holding mine, either. But I do believe there are a great many decent and concerned people in the SBC. If only they'd have the wherewithal to go the extra step in terms of reason and critical thinking and seek to understand the elements of their ideology that make their groups such cozy havens for predators.

Again, I truly believe they are largely caring, decent people, but they fail to extend that human empathy far enough to challenge their own beliefs. As long as they accept an authority figure (pastor, scripture, magical imaginary friend) to stand in place of their own conscience, they will serve as a liability to humanity and not in any way a force for good in a tribe of seven billion no matter how conscientious and good hearted they are within the group.

Well, that's the same with every organization. For instance, most Catholics are caring, decent people but that didn't stop the Catholic Church from covering up and enabling the rape of children for centuries because it only takes a small handful of individuals to abuse their power and authority within the organization in order to do so. It's the policies and procedures that are in place and the demand by those in charge that these things be adhered to which is the thing that makes the difference, not the attitude about the abuse from the general congregation member.

 

[Angry Floof]

While it's a nice gesture on their part and clearly a step in the right direction, I won't be holding my breath waiting to see if they actually mean to do something about it or if this is just a PR statement which will allow them to look as if they're doing something about it without their actually then going and doing that something.

I won't be holding mine, either. But I do believe there are a great many decent and concerned people in the SBC. If only they'd have the wherewithal to go the extra step in terms of reason and critical thinking and seek to understand the elements of their ideology that make their groups such cozy havens for predators.

Again, I truly believe they are largely caring, decent people, but they fail to extend that human empathy far enough to challenge their own beliefs. As long as they accept an authority figure (pastor, scripture, magical imaginary friend) to stand in place of their own conscience, they will serve as a liability to humanity and not in any way a force for good in a tribe of seven billion no matter how conscientious and good hearted they are within the group.

Well, that's the same with every organization. For instance, most Catholics are caring, decent people but that didn't stop the Catholic Church from covering up and enabling the rape of children for centuries because it only takes a small handful of individuals to abuse their power and authority within the organization in order to do so. It's the policies and procedures that are in place and the demand by those in charge that these things be adhered to which is the thing that makes the difference, not the attitude about the abuse from the general congregation member.

No, certainly not every organization, not even every religious organization. Quakers, for example, don't create that kind of environment for predators. They don't insist on blind trust in the church authority, they don't punish questioning, and they do respect autonomy and insist on extreme pacifism. These values are antithesis to most of Christianity and Islam, and other religions, and they serve to encourage a much more humane and responsible world view, and discourage ideological dogmatism.

And secular organizations are rarely based in authority worship, thought policing, antagonism to outsiders, us vs. them identity, etc. If they are, they are called religions or cults, not just "organizations." Sports is the closest secular type of organization to a religion that might create a welcoming, protective environment for predators.

As for attitudes among the congregation, I've seen too many instances where people I thought were sane and humane in their regard for others turn into savages when dealing with victims of corrupt religious authorities, particularly girl victims.

 

[steve_bank]

Don't have a freaking clue what you are rambling on about. It was not an argument, a question about Christian selective morality and actually doing the right thing across the board. Catholics, Jews, all of it.

It is not generally publicized. In the orthodox Jewish community in NYC there is a history of general wife abuse and non sexual child abuse. There are social programs to help children transition out of the culturem9nto mainstream society. It is ultra cloistered. Kids grow up never having been to a restaurant or store outside the community. Women have trouble escaping the environment.

In spite of your rambling here, I still ask, why would the SBC take on the issues of other religions?

Are you suggesting that groups like SBC would care about overall problems of controlling, patriarchal, authoritarian, ignorance-worshiping groups in the world? They'd have to become atheists or, at the very least, fundamentally reformed in their religious beliefs to recognize just what it is that they share with other groups and why abusers and predators find it so easy to take refuge among them.

Again, referring to Christians selective morality. Is there a sarcasm symbol? If there is I will use it in the future to make sure the meaning is clear.

 

[Angry Floof]

You wrote:

Will they take on the Mormon polygamists? Teens are married to middle aged and older men.

Who is "they" in your question? The OP is about the SBC. They, the SBC, are not going to give a flying shit about what Mormons do as long as Mormons don't interfere with the SBC.

I understand your words just fine. It's the relation of those words to the OP that is confusing.

 

[Bronzeage]

If someone read only the thread title, they might think it meant the Baptists are looking at all churches, or at least other churches.

This is basically the SBC's turn in the barrel. It's an inevitable situation in any hierarchy where there is no accountability for the people who hold the power. Les Moonves and Charlie Rose could be Baptist ministers and the story would be the same. When the hierarchy is based upon a great element of submission to authority, it's as good as done. As with most organizations, the people responsible for preventing sexual abuse, or at least stopping it and seeing that it stays stopped, are also those with the power to abuse. Their incentive to preserve the reputation of the organization is much greater than their incentive to protect the vulnerable

We'll have to wait and see if the Baptists devise a way to deal with this problem which is more effective than other organizations which have suffered the same thing.

 

[steve_bank]

If someone read only the thread title, they might think it meant the Baptists are looking at all churches, or at least other churches.

This is basically the SBC's turn in the barrel. It's an inevitable situation in any hierarchy where there is no accountability for the people who hold the power. Les Moonves and Charlie Rose could be Baptist ministers and the story would be the same. When the hierarchy is based upon a great element of submission to authority, it's as good as done. As with most organizations, the people responsible for preventing sexual abuse, or at least stopping it and seeing that it stays stopped, are also those with the power to abuse. Their incentive to preserve the reputation of the organization is much greater than their incentive to protect the vulnerable

We'll have to wait and see if the Baptists devise a way to deal with this problem which is more effective than other organizations which have suffered the same thing.

Good point. There are many churches called Batiste that represent a group of churches with a common theme. When I looked at the title I assumed SBC.

 

[southernhybrid]

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?17826-The-Southern-Baptist-sex-scandals

I started a thread about this in February if anyone is interested. I know this issue is getting even more publicity now, as both the NYTImes and the WaPo had articles about it within in the last week.

I think the primary lesson is that wherever there are children, teens and women, sexual predators will be there too. We are so used to thinking it's only Catholic priests that do these things, but it's pretty much any group where men have most or all of the power. And, from what I've read, it's not just the Southern Baptists, it's most any version of fundamentalist Christianity that has this issue confronting them. As I said, when men control things, sexual predators will be there too.

 

[skepticalbip]

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?17826-The-Southern-Baptist-sex-scandals

I started a thread about this in February if anyone is interested. I know this issue is getting even more publicity now, as both the NYTImes and the WaPo had articles about it within in the last week.

I think the primary lesson is that wherever there are children, teens and women, sexual predators will be there too. We are so used to thinking it's only Catholic priests that do these things, but it's pretty much any group where men have most or all of the power. And, from what I've read, it's not just the Southern Baptists, it's most any version of fundamentalist Christianity that has this issue confronting them. As I said, when men control things, sexual predators will be there too.

That sounds like you are focusing on one part of a larger set. What you posted is true but only part of the truth so a bit misleading. But then maybe you haven't noticed the many cases of female high school teachers who are sexual predators. Some had their teaching license revoked and a few were sentenced to jail time.

I think the primary lesson is that whenever there are adults (male or female) supervising children or teens, sexual predators will be there too.

 

[Angry Floof]

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?17826-The-Southern-Baptist-sex-scandals

I started a thread about this in February if anyone is interested. I know this issue is getting even more publicity now, as both the NYTImes and the WaPo had articles about it within in the last week.

I think the primary lesson is that wherever there are children, teens and women, sexual predators will be there too. We are so used to thinking it's only Catholic priests that do these things, but it's pretty much any group where men have most or all of the power. And, from what I've read, it's not just the Southern Baptists, it's most any version of fundamentalist Christianity that has this issue confronting them. As I said, when men control things, sexual predators will be there too.

That sounds like you are focusing on one part of a larger set. What you posted is true but only part of the truth so a bit misleading. But then maybe you haven't noticed the many cases of female high school teachers who are sexual predators. Some had their teaching license revoked and a few were sentenced to jail time.

I think the primary lesson is that whenever there are adults (male or female) supervising children or teens, sexual predators will be there too.

Another major factor that cannot be ignored is that religious groups get special leeway to do as they please with very little oversight and accountability. Schools and sports leagues don't typically insist on their own laws to follow.

When religious leaders abuse, it's almost always, overwhelmingly so, that secular society holds them accountable if they are ever held accountable at all. Church congregations, again overwhelmingly, protect and excuse predators while demonizing and blaming victims, often children.

This is only acceptable due to the pedestal and misplaced trust given to Christianity in the U.S. and that is partly what makes authoritarian church environments, already inviting and comfortable for predators, even more so.