Is it very careless to lend someone a gun?

[lpetrich]

On Twitter was this exchange:

Miya Shay on Twitter: "Five men tried to rob a young woman this morning. They didn’t expect her to grab her handgun and fire. Today, she is unharmed, and at least one suspect is shot. Exclusive #ABC13 interview at 4:30 & 6. [url]https://t.co/OW8oZoQTkQ #Hounews https://t.co/IS8htwfx7t" / Twitter[/url]

Dan Crenshaw on Twitter: "Situations like this story are why we protect the 2nd Amendment.
Side note: With universal background checks, I wouldn’t be able to let my friends borrow my handgun when they travel alone like this. We would make felons out of people just for defending themselves. https://t.co/x60mdd1WW1" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "You are a member of Congress. Why are you “lending” guns to people unsupervised who can’t pass a basic background check?
The people you’re giving a gun to have likely abused their spouse or have a violent criminal record, & you may not know it.
Why on earth would you do that? https://t.co/TQFjcLQebO" / Twitter

Dan Crenshaw on Twitter: "Just so I’m clear: you think my friends are domestic abusers/criminals? Seriously that’s your argument? That they can’t pass a background check?
Wrong. People lend guns to friends, esp if they don’t own a gun, for self-defense and hunting purposes.
This is America outside NYC. https://t.co/wkWPhfi0JB" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "You said w/ universal background checks, you wouldn’t be able to “lend” guns to friends.
If a background check would be a problem, then you shouldn’t “lend” a gun.
And btw, NY is one of the safest states in the country when it comes to guns, incl rural areas.
Try to keep up. https://t.co/4RV4DNg7FM" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Herein lies an important point abt domestic abuse: most of it is hidden.
You could know an abuser & have no clue. I’ve had friends come out to me as victims. It’s not obvious. Unsafe relationships are COMMON.
That’s why House Dems passed closing the boyfriend loophole in VAWA." / Twitter

EMILYMILLER on Twitter: "@2222vj @Neoavatara @DanCrenshawTX @AOC That's implicit in what Crenshaw is saying. He knows his friends and isn't being irresponsible. The criminals are the ones who give each other guns without care for society safety." / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "This idea of “I know the guy, there’s no way he beats his wife” as the way we keep guns out of the hands of abusers is ridiculous.
Any person who has been abused, assaulted, etc knows that abusers often present as “upstanding.”
There’s no way you’d know. That’s why it’s common. https://t.co/uuq17HT3Of" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Rapists can have Ivy League degrees. Abusers can look like “good dads” or have high incomes or “great jobs.”
Good appearances are often a cover for abusers. In fact, many abusers RELY on their public reputation to intimidate partners from leaving (ex: “no one will believe you.”)" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Domestic abusers can be master manipulators. Plus, domestic abuse is a HUGE indicator for gun violence.
That’s why “vouching for friend” isn’t a substitute for a background check.
You wouldn’t lend a car to someone w/o a license.Why lend a gun to someone w/o a background check?" / Twitter

AOC is D-NY and Rep. Dan Crenshaw is R-TX

Was AOC being too hard on Rep. Crenshaw about lending a gun?

 

[zorq]

In answer to the title, yes, it is as careless to lend someone a gun without a background check as it is to lend someone a car without a driver's license.

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

If your friend might need a gun they should get their own gun, or ask you to escort him/her with your gun... Or maybe they should just take a moment to reevaluate their life's decisions and ask themselves how they came to be in a situation where they expect to suddenly need a gun.

 

[fast]

It’s careless to lend just anyone a gun, but lending someone (oh like a close friend or relative) a gun that has not had a background check is not necessarily careless when there’s no indication it’ll be used for lawless purposes. If laws are changed further impeding our already corroding rights to bare arms such that the mere possession of a handgun without a prior background check becomes a felony, then we can’t legally lend someone a gun even for personal protection.

 

[Derec]

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

No, she did not follow it to its logical conclusion. She followed it to the AOCesque conclusion, which is not at all the same thing.
Just because getting a background check is cost and effort prohibitive to do just to lend a friend a gun for a week or whatever does not mean that said friend likely could not pass a background check because of a criminal record.

 

[Patooka]

I seriously doubt Dan Crenshaw was arguing in good faith.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Crenshaw was a self-imposed implosion of bullshit for sure.

 

[zorq]

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

No, she did not follow it to its logical conclusion. She followed it to the AOCesque conclusion, which is not at all the same thing.
Just because getting a background check is cost and effort prohibitive to do just to lend a friend a gun for a week or whatever does not mean that said friend likely could not pass a background check because of a criminal record.

I don't care if you COULD get a driver's licence. I'm simply not going to lend my car to you until you get one. Regardless of how cost or time prohibitive you think getting that driver's licence is.

 

[Patooka]

I can't think of a single scenario where this hypothetical would seem even remotely plausible. Lending your gun might make you a law-abiding gun owner, but it sure as fuck disqualifies you as being a responsible one.

 

[Jarhyn]

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

No, she did not follow it to its logical conclusion. She followed it to the AOCesque conclusion, which is not at all the same thing.
Just because getting a background check is cost and effort prohibitive to do just to lend a friend a gun for a week or whatever does not mean that said friend likely could not pass a background check because of a criminal record.

Sure. It's time and cost prohibitive for me to get a license. Months on end of my life to practice, more months to schedule the exam, and the risk of some shithead instructor getting their pants in a wad over whether they saw me look like I was looking in my mirrors obviously enough?

A background check is nothing compared to that.

 

[laughing dog]

I can't think of a single scenario where this hypothetical would seem even remotely plausible. Lending your gun might make you a law-abiding gun owner, but it sure as fuck disqualifies you as being a responsible one.

Lending any potential lethal tool to anyone without supervision is asking for trouble.

 

[Bronzeage]

Rudyard Kipling wrote the Just So stories and internet pundits write "Too Neat" stories. Somebody heard somebody say something about someone their friend knows.

It's just as likely an armed woman broke up a drug deal with the intent of stealing the money. She fires her weapon, which attracts attention to the five men fleeing the scene and she's the only one left to tell the tale.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In answer to the title, yes, it is as careless to lend someone a gun without a background check as it is to lend someone a car without a driver's license.

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

If your friend might need a gun they should get their own gun, or ask you to escort him/her with your gun... Or maybe they should just take a moment to reevaluate their life's decisions and ask themselves how they came to be in a situation where they expect to suddenly need a gun.

Which is certainly part of why I favor gun licenses. That makes a background check 10 seconds that can be done anywhere. You see their license before handing them the gun.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s careless to lend just anyone a gun, but lending someone (oh like a close friend or relative) a gun that has not had a background check is not necessarily careless when there’s no indication it’ll be used for lawless purposes. If laws are changed further impeding our already corroding rights to bare arms such that the mere possession of a handgun without a prior background check becomes a felony, then we can’t legally lend someone a gun even for personal protection.

In general we will know if family or close friends would pass a background check.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In answer to the question in the OP, no, AOC wasn't too hard on Crenshaw. Crenshaw opened the door to the discussion by clumsily linking lending a gun to a friend with universal background checks. AOC followed the argument to its logical conclusion.

No, she did not follow it to its logical conclusion. She followed it to the AOCesque conclusion, which is not at all the same thing.
Just because getting a background check is cost and effort prohibitive to do just to lend a friend a gun for a week or whatever does not mean that said friend likely could not pass a background check because of a criminal record.

I don't care if you COULD get a driver's licence. I'm simply not going to lend my car to you until you get one. Regardless of how cost or time prohibitive you think getting that driver's licence is.

Which is utterly missing the point.

A driver's license is a one-time expense. The background check if you lend a firearm is every time--and when they return it, also.

 

[Rhea]

Holy fuck. No. I would ABSOLUTELY NOT ever lend my hand gun to someone who did not already demonstrate their safety and skill. And you can’t very well demonstrate safety & skill if you’ve never had a license to own a handgun.

I can’t believe people are even taking this seriously. It’s poppycock. He’s insane if he would “lend” his lethal weapon to someone.

The only time anyone has ever shot my guns is when I’m standing right next to them. Let them go away with it? Are you fucking nuts? No!

 

[fast]

It’s careless to lend just anyone a gun, but lending someone (oh like a close friend or relative) a gun that has not had a background check is not necessarily careless when there’s no indication it’ll be used for lawless purposes. If laws are changed further impeding our already corroding rights to bare arms such that the mere possession of a handgun without a prior background check becomes a felony, then we can’t legally lend someone a gun even for personal protection.

In general we will know if family or close friends would pass a background check.

We need to compartmentalize and isolate background checks from our reasoning when examining the issue of carelessness. Before background checks for the purchase of a gun, every act of selling was not a careless act. Suppose all that was required was an ID and money to buy a gun and the ID was inadvertently not checked. That would be careless but suppose a person had an ID and money but appeared irratic and agitated. It would be foolish, irresponsible, and certainly lacking care and good judgement to sell that person a gun.

Carelessness is independent of background checks for purchasing guns when checks are not required. Lending someone a gun is not a purchase or sale. Suppose you’re a felon [of not only a crime not involving guns but also (because I don’t feel like excessive arguing) of a completely non-violent crime] and you have recently inherited a gun. Disclosing the location of the gun to you whereby all parties are aware that your possession of it is illegal and knowing full well that a background check would reveal as much, the presence of carelessness doesn’t hinge on and is independent of any background check. Illegal doesn’t mean careless. It would be inadvisable that you take possession of the gun, but it’s neither careless nor irresponsible for me to disclose the location unless I had a reason to suspect you would set out to harm someone. Why? Because the illegality of your possessing the gun has nothing to do with carelessness on my part. To see that, compartmentalize the fact felons may not possess guns and strike it from your reasoning when THE ISSUE IS CARELESSNESS.

If I am supposed to do something and don’t, that’s one thing, and if I do what I do with no care you were not of sound mind or suspected future harm beinfg caused, that is beyond carelessness, but to just willy nilly label an action as careless is short-sighted.

 

[Gun Nut]

I can't think of a single scenario where this hypothetical would seem even remotely plausible. Lending your gun might make you a law-abiding gun owner, but it sure as fuck disqualifies you as being a responsible one.

It does not, and is not legal to do so either... nor should it be.
It is highly irresponsible and the "lender" of the gun should be held as accountable for anything that happens with that gun, as if it was the owner themselves committing the act... in addition to loosing their permitted state-level privileges.

Among responsible gun owners, such an action is unheard of (apart from trying each other's guns at the range, under supervision, in that controlled environment - not the same thing as "lending").

Careless
Stupid
Irresponsible
Moronic
Foolish
Illegal
Immoral

these are things "lending" a gun to someone is.

 

[Gun Nut]

It’s careless to lend just anyone a gun, but lending someone (oh like a close friend or relative) a gun that has not had a background check is not necessarily careless when there’s no indication it’ll be used for lawless purposes. If laws are changed further impeding our already corroding rights to bare arms such that the mere possession of a handgun without a prior background check becomes a felony, then we can’t legally lend someone a gun even for personal protection.

In general we will know if family or close friends would pass a background check.

So then they go pass one, get their own license (if needed), and buy their own gun. What's the problem? I reject the claim that a gun ever "needs" to be lent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It’s careless to lend just anyone a gun, but lending someone (oh like a close friend or relative) a gun that has not had a background check is not necessarily careless when there’s no indication it’ll be used for lawless purposes. If laws are changed further impeding our already corroding rights to bare arms such that the mere possession of a handgun without a prior background check becomes a felony, then we can’t legally lend someone a gun even for personal protection.

In general we will know if family or close friends would pass a background check.

So then they go pass one, get their own license (if needed), and buy their own gun. What's the problem? I reject the claim that a gun ever "needs" to be lent.

What would strike me as a quite reasonable case is because they had something planned and their gun was in the shop.

 

[Gun Nut]

Holy fuck. No. I would ABSOLUTELY NOT ever lend my hand gun to someone who did not already demonstrate their safety and skill. And you can’t very well demonstrate safety & skill if you’ve never had a license to own a handgun.

I can’t believe people are even taking this seriously. It’s poppycock. He’s insane if he would “lend” his lethal weapon to someone.

The only time anyone has ever shot my guns is when I’m standing right next to them. Let them go away with it? Are you fucking nuts? No!

zactly... this is ridiculous. I would sooner lend someone my toothbrush to clean their asshole with.