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Reza Aslan, Ben Affleck, Bill Maher and Sam Harris walk into a bar... (Atheism, Islam and liberalism: This is what we are really fighting about)

AthenaAwakened

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NOTE: I am not saying I totally agree with the article or even the quote below (not even sure this is the right forum to put it in), but this is something that needs to be thought about and talked about

Indeed, I would argue that people who line up on opposing sides of the Harris-Aslan feud over religion and Islam represent fundamentally different worldviews, in ways they themselves may not recognize. I’m not talking about East vs. West or Muslim vs. Christian, and still less about lily-livered p.c. “progressives” vs. courageous contrarian truth-tellers, or however Bill Maher would like to phrase it. And I don’t precisely mean the difference between people of faith and the atheistic or irreligious. Those are facets of the dispute that are largely obvious. In a conversation between Richard Dawkins and Pope Francis (and I’d definitely pay to watch that), both would politely acknowledge that they hold divergent views about the fundamental nature of reality. What I really mean is the difference between humanities majors and science majors.

That may sound like crude or facetious shorthand, but I believe it contains a genuine insight. Given that I clearly belong to one of these tribes (you get only one guess), it’s entirely likely that I will mischaracterize the other one. Such is the nature of the epistemological division. When I say that one side is primarily concerned with facts and the other with narrative, or that one side understands the world primarily in subjective, experiential and relativistic terms while the other focuses on objective and quantifiable phenomena and binary true-false questions, that may help us frame the profound mutual misunderstanding at work. Harris’ conception of religion as bad science, which seems like a ludicrous misreading to those who understand religion as a mythic force that shapes community and collective meaning, is a classic example. One side insists that the only important question is whether the truth-claims of religion are actually true; the other side says that question doesn’t even matter, and then wonders what “truth” is, anyway. It’s the overly literal-minded versus the hopelessly vague.

What we see in discussions about religion in general and Islam in particular is a version of the same problem: People who barely speak the same language talking past each other, either making grand claims that refute themselves or raising legitimate questions that the other side ducks. I fall much closer to the Ben Affleck-Reza Aslan camp than to the tough-talkin’ pseudo-liberalism of Harris and Maher, as it slides toward a justification of permanent drone war and universal anti-Muslim profiling. But both sides engage in oversimplifications and ideological short cuts that seem like efforts to conceal what this debate is really about. Despite all its remarkable accomplishments, Western culture feels guilty and ill at ease. It traded in God for Snooki, swapped transcendent meaning and social cohesion for a vision of Enlightenment that started out bubbly and gradually went flat, like a can of week-old Mountain Dew. It’s not the kind of trade you can undo.

At this point, Harris and Maher have become war trolls and fellow travelers of Dick Cheney, without even realizing it. It’s a sad fate for Maher, who was an acrid voice of resistance under the Bush administration. As for Harris, he has played an elaborate intellectual game of bait-and-switch since at least 9/11: He makes inflammatory comments about how we must wage war against Islam, or about the need to consider a nuclear first strike against a Muslim nation, and then backs away, protesting that he’s been taken out of context and actually thinks those things would be dreadful. He and Maher have provided covert aid and comfort to bigots who firebomb mosques or beat up “Muslim-looking” people at the mall, while officially being horrified by such hateful actions. They’re analogous to polite Southern whites of 1955, who did not personally use the N-word and found the Klan distasteful, but who never questioned the fundamental rightness of white supremacy.

But Harris and Maher and other prominent anti-Muslim voices are right about one thing: Western leftists are often reluctant to criticize Islam, and it isn’t entirely healthy. This reluctance stems from many understandable causes: from sheer politeness, from a desire to promote harmony rather than discord, and from an eagerness not to come off as smug, xenophobic blowhards, the way Maher and Harris so often do. Of course the overwhelming majority of Muslims around the world do not support terrorism; that hardly need to be said. Despite right-wing claims to the contrary, any number of imams and Islamic community leaders have spoken out against the likes of al-Qaida and ISIS and Boko Haram. As Aslan has repeatedly observed, Islam looks very different in different countries, and like any other major religion it has many competing and overlapping currents. A Muslim woman cannot drive a car or go outdoors unaccompanied in Saudi Arabia, but she can go to the beach in cutoffs in Istanbul or go dancing all night in Dubai.

Ultimately it does not aid the cause of tolerance to deny that social practice in most majority-Muslim nations involves a lot of stuff that Western liberals rightly find appalling: the subordination of women, the suppression or persecution of LGBT people, extremely limited tolerance for those of other faiths (or none) and sharply restricted freedom of expression. One can discuss these troubling aspects of real-world Islam – as Reza Aslan and many other Western Muslims frequently do, in fairness – while also insisting that you can’t understand them independent of social and historical context. We don’t have to follow Maher and Harris down the rabbit hole of unjustified assumptions and disastrous conclusions: Illiberality and intolerance are intrinsic elements of Muslim doctrine, they argue, and Islam is a zone of monolithic groupthink unlike any other world religion (“the mother lode of bad ideas,” says Harris). Therefore Islam is a global cancer or disease, which must be killed or cut out.
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/11/ath...sm_this_is_what_we_are_really_fighting_about/
 
islam phobia is NOT harmful to muslims but to the west
 
islam phobia is NOT harmful to muslims but to the west
Riiiiiiiiight, Syed. Because, what, we might miss out on a wonderful opportunity to join up and oppress our women or something? If that's helpful, i'd rather be harmed.
Besides, Syed, you don't want us embracing your religion. The way American fundamentalists go, if Islam swept our nation, we'd decide ours was the REAL Islam and kill all you pretenders to the faith.
 
One thing that is not mentioned in Haris's criticism of Arab nations is this little thing called "oil".

It seems completely absent from his analysis.

And oil is a much bigger factor in terms of what is happening in Arab nations than religion.

What we see are the effects of powerful foreign interests securing oil for themselves and control of oil for themselves.

One thing we see from this is the Saudi Arabian dictatorship, a fundamentalist brutal dictatorship, that has been propped up by the West for decades.

And Saudi Arabia with it's fundamentalist views of Islam is the cause of may problems in the Arab world. The 911 hijackers grew out of this Saudi cesspool of fundamentalism.

Add the invasion of Iraq and things get worse.

If you take oil out of the equation the problem seems to be one mainly related to religion but that is not looking at the whole picture.

I agree we should condemn nations that treat women badly, but we shouldn't forget why fundamentalism has so much power in the Arab world. It is a reaction to encroachment and meddling from the West that has been going on since oil was discovered in the region.
 
One thing that is not mentioned in Haris's criticism of Arab nations is this little thing called "oil".

It seems completely absent from his analysis.

And oil is a much bigger factor in terms of what is happening in Arab nations than religion.

What we see are the effects of powerful foreign interests securing oil for themselves and control of oil for themselves.

One thing we see from this is the Saudi Arabian dictatorship, a fundamentalist brutal dictatorship, that has been propped up by the West for decades.

And Saudi Arabia with it's fundamentalist views of Islam is the cause of may problems in the Arab world. The 911 hijackers grew out of this Saudi cesspool of fundamentalism.

Add the invasion of Iraq and things get worse.

If you take oil out of the equation the problem seems to be one mainly related to religion but that is not looking at the whole picture.

I agree we should condemn nations that treat women badly, but we shouldn't forget why fundamentalism has so much power in the Arab world. It is a reaction to encroachment and meddling from the West that has been going on since oil was discovered in the region.

OIL

In capitalism and middle east politics, this is the love that dare not speak its name
 
OIL

In capitalism and middle east politics, this is the love that dare not speak its name

I can't say that Harris definitely does not mention oil anywhere. I've never heard him address the issue, but I've only heard him speak on a few topics, mostly against religion where he talks about Islam and it's problems.

You can't discuss the problems of the power of Islamic fundamentalism without talking about oil and the things done in the region to secure access to it. Like create this huge fundamentalist fountainhead in Saudi Arabia.
 
I want to focus on Harris, the neuroscientist and “New Atheist” philosopher, because he’s a fascinating and troublesome figure who embodies many of these contradictions. His premise that the primary role of religion in human history has been as “failed science” – as a set of factual claims about the universe that have now been proven false (or are inherently unfalsifiable) – lies at the core of his atheist worldview. It’s also dramatically at odds with the standard view in religious studies, and would provoke eye-rolling from a sophomore seminar in the subject. At best, it’s a partial account of one of the roles filled by religion, and an account that ignores overwhelming evidence that believers interpret religious doctrine and scripture different ways in different contexts. Did the ancient Greeks literally believe that Zeus and Athena and Apollo lived in palaces on top of Mt. Olympus? It would take a sociologist with a time machine to supply a definitive answer, but the best available evidence suggests a situation we ought to recognize: Some did, some did not and a great many weren’t sure or hadn’t really thought about it.

Actually, if you read Plato's Apology, on Socrates' process, it really didn't matter if you believed or not or "sort of" believed in the Gods, you had BETTER show you believed! And that's just it, isn't it? This "All we are saying is give religion a chance" cræp about religion giving people meaning is a tacit appeal to ignore the fact religion is hogwash and not only that, but mandatory hogwash, and therefore a form of violence. It is inhumane to force BS onto your children and into other people's children, as it is inhumane that they try to do the same to us full-grown adults. Religion is no good, because even the charity it produces would not be necessary in a world where people are more effective at fixing their problems because they are not so concerned and controlled by BS.

Religion -it's just what it is. And fck Islam, fck it and very hard. The fact that a Harris now has something in common with hysterical fundy Christians who whambulance about anything non-Christian is beside the point. If religion is bullocks (of a very harmful and odious kind) let's not be coy about it. I'm glad there are moderate Muslims as there are moderate whatever else, but that doesn't make sudden rainbows and care bears dancing ring around the rosie.
 
I dunno. Salon seems like an atheist bashing mag as of late. I didn't find the article all that insightful. More like preaching to the choir with lots of word salad window dressing.

As far as Aslan is concerned, there's few better at turning the ugly side of Islam, and shining that turd to look like gold. His scholarship is is not merely misrepresentation, I fail to see how it couldn't be outright purposeful misrepresentation given his knowledge of the subject. As to the Real Time show, I've seen it in entirety. I'm not saying Ben Affleck is an actor buffoon like many are trying to characterize him to be. I actually find him well versed in many current issues. But in this case, Harris barely had a chance to speak. Affleck was obviously overly emotional to the point of butthurt over what he perceived to be racism. He came off childish and dismissive, and it was definitely not his best moment. Harris never got much of a chance to ever make his points on the show, and Maher didn't articulate it particularly well at all.
 
I dunno. Salon seems like an atheist bashing mag as of late. I didn't find the article all that insightful. More like preaching to the choir with lots of word salad window dressing.

As far as Aslan is concerned, there's few better at turning the ugly side of Islam, and shining that turd to look like gold. His scholarship is is not merely misrepresentation, I fail to see how it couldn't be outright purposeful misrepresentation given his knowledge of the subject. As to the Real Time show, I've seen it in entirety. I'm not saying Ben Affleck is an actor buffoon like many are trying to characterize him to be. I actually find him well versed in many current issues. But in this case, Harris barely had a chance to speak. Affleck was obviously overly emotional to the point of butthurt over what he perceived to be racism. He came off childish and dismissive, and it was definitely not his best moment. Harris never got much of a chance to ever make his points on the show, and Maher didn't articulate it particularly well at all.

What Harris says is true but he stops his analysis too soon.

Yes there is this very large fundamentalist power center in the Arab world.

He doesn't seem to wonder why though. He immediately says the problem is fundamentally Islam.

He completely ignores the factors that have led to this huge fundamentalist power.

The US imposition of the Shah in Iran that led to fundamentalist control. The training and support of fundamentalist groups to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. The support of the Saudi fundamentalist dictatorship and the huge amounts of funding in support of fundamentalism that occurs in the region as a result. The invasion of Iraq and the igniting of sectarian violence that has led to groups like ISIS.

I agree that fundamentalism is a problem. But I also agree that outside interference in the region has greatly increased fundamentalism in the region. It is not just some natural evolution of Islam.
 
Actually Harris has said that those are contributing factors as well. He does not focus exclusively on fundamentalism, but he does not ignore it either, and this gets people upset. Harris is by no means error free when it comes to analyzing the complex politics of the Middle East, (hell I don't think anyone has a full grasp of all the complexities of such a problem) I also don't recall him ever mentioning oil as Athena stated, for example. I do see a LOT of people misrepresenting his views however, and rather dishonestly at that.
 
Actually Harris has said that those are contributing factors as well. He does not focus exclusively on fundamentalism, but he does not ignore it either, and this gets people upset. Harris is by no means error free when it comes to analyzing the complex politics of the Middle East, (hell I don't think anyone has a full grasp of all the complexities of such a problem) I also don't recall him ever mentioning oil as Athena stated, for example. I do see a LOT of people misrepresenting his views however, and rather dishonestly at that.

Harris didn't say a word about it on the show. I've never heard him discuss the effects of oil and the efforts of the West to control oil on the level and power of fundamentalism in the region.

Since you say he does can you quote him?
 
I noted in that quote that I don't think he does say anything about oil. From that post of mine: "I also don't recall him ever mentioning oil as Athena stated, for example." I was speaking to the West interfering in Middle East politics. ( I grant that a lot of the motivation for that interference is oil, though.)

Completely off topic, I like to use parentheses. Neither putting the period on the inside nor the outside looks right to me...

ETA: I did a very quick search for oil and Sam Harris and got this quote:

This is one of the many ways to see that our troubles in the Muslim world are not purely a matter of our lust for oil, our support for dictators, or any aspect of U.S. foreign policy.

From HERE if you want to ensure context. Kinda long article.

He seems to indicate here that oil, support of dictators and U.S. foreign policy is also to blame, but not exclusively the problem. Obviously he is concentrated on the religious aspects of the problem. It would be interesting to ask and receive an answer for his actual opinion. If I have time I may search around a bit more later to see if I can get a feel for where he's coming from on that front.
 
I noted in that quote that I don't think he does say anything about oil. From that post of mine: "I also don't recall him ever mentioning oil as Athena stated, for example." I was speaking to the West interfering in Middle East politics. ( I grant that a lot of the motivation for that interference is oil, though.)

Completely off topic, I like to use parentheses. Neither putting the period on the inside nor the outside looks right to me...

I claim the major reason fundamentalism has so much power in the region is because of interference and violence from the West.

It is absurd to say the region represents a natural evolution over the past 100 years. Over the past 100 years the region has been fucked with over and over by the West in it's quest to control the oil.

I pointed out a few instances where interference has led to massive fundamentalist power. Saudi Arabia represents massive fundamentalist power projecting fundamentalism into the region.

Imagine if Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz, two Christian fundamentalists, had absolute power like the dictators of Saudi Arabia.

Do you think the US would change?

Would it be because of religion or the power of certain fundamentalists that have a religion?

The problem in the region is that fundamentalists, beginning in Saudi Arabia, have too much power.

It is always a problem when fundamentalists have too much power. And it is not a problem of Islam. It is a problem of Muslim fundamentalists with too much power.
 
ETA: I did a very quick search for oil and Sam Harris and got this quote:

This is one of the many ways to see that our troubles in the Muslim world are not purely a matter of our lust for oil, our support for dictators, or any aspect of U.S. foreign policy.

From HERE if you want to ensure context. Kinda long article.

He seems to indicate here that oil, support of dictators and U.S. foreign policy is also to blame, but not exclusively the problem. Obviously he is concentrated on the religious aspects of the problem. It would be interesting to ask and receive an answer for his actual opinion. If I have time I may search around a bit more later to see if I can get a feel for where he's coming from on that front.

Here is the first comment about oil.

Western conflict with the Muslim world has arisen, off and on, for centuries. Thomas Jefferson sued for peace with the Barbary Pirates who had enslaved something like 1.5 million Europeans and Americans between 16th and 18th centuries. As Christopher Hitchens once pointed out, the explicit justification for this piracy was the doctrine of Islam. In fact, this collision with Islam helped ensure the ratification of the U.S. Constitution, for it was argued that only a federation of states with a strong navy could stand against such a persistent threat. Consequently, one could argue that the American war on terror formally began in 1801 with the Barbary Wars—waged by the Jefferson and Madison administrations. This is one of the many ways to see that our troubles in the Muslim world are not purely a matter of our lust for oil, our support for dictators, or any aspect of U.S. foreign policy. As the much-maligned Samuel Huntington one said, “Islam has bloody borders.” It always has. But many people seem determined to deny this.

His claim is basically because the US was fighting Barbary Pirates in the 18th century, before the industrial revolution and the discovery of oil in the ME, that means Islam is a really bad thing and it is bad unrelated to the violence in the region that has resulted directly because of the West's desire to control oil.

His claim is absurd. The Barbary Pirates were slave traders, like the US slave traders. The only difference and what makes them so appalling is they made white people submit to slavery. That is their big crime. That is the difference between them and the Christian slave traders and slave owners. You know, slave owners like Jefferson.

That's just the first I found. I'll go through more later. Oh wait, that's the only time he mentions the word. This is his big examination of the effects of oil.
 
Save your time. I was commenting in the thread and not looking for a debate on "It's not Islam, it's all the Wests' fault and Sam Harris is a douche debate." Unless someone else wishes to debate you, but I don't think that was really what the OP was a bout, although perhaps I'm wrong.
 
Save your time. I was commenting in the thread and not looking for a debate on "It's not Islam, it's all the Wests' fault and Sam Harris is a douche debate." Unless someone else wishes to debate you, but I don't think that was really what the OP was a bout, although perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm just passionate about the topic, perhaps a bit like Affleck.

I think the problem in the Muslim world is not Islam. It is that fundamentalists have too much power.

When fundamentalists have too much power that is a problem. It doesn't matter what religion they belong to.
 
I think the problem in the Muslim world is not Islam. It is that fundamentalists have too much power.

But why do the fundamentalists have such power? Enabled by the religion, of course. Once you elevate a medieval Mein Kampf to the level of the sacred and of the oh-so-fcking-true-my-balls-just-fell-off, prepare for all hell breaking loose.

That's the problem.

So fck Islam and Christianity and homeopathy and vaccines-are-giving-everybody-autism. That faith-based crp must die before we do.



---

That sounded so coarse, didn't it? We all want is to live in peace and harmony and not see our neighbors as potential possee members and have a good time --that's the reason we start saying things like "Religion is not the problem, fundamentalism is". Why, of course. It's like saying "The flu virus is not the problem, sneezing and touching door knobs with your viral sweat is the problem!". Well guess what produced what. If only religion didn't produce fundamentalism... hmmm... how do we tackle that one?

The only safe religionist is the religionist who takes his religion with a grain of salt. I'm sorry to break it to you, but that grain of salt is not really believing the sht. Believing makes you do stuff, isn't it obvious?
 
I don't think beat up on people gets us anywhere.

However critique of ideas is a necessity when engaged in social commentary.

I don't feel Affleck was the best spokesman for the cause, but he did have a point. Islam is not some super religion that is just so much worse than any other and to believe so can lead a person down a very dangerous path.

Maher was also right that liberals must not fall silent about human rights abuses just because an out group is perpetrating the abuse.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. And yet if you listen to the debate noted in the OP, you would think they were.

You can critique the religion and still treat the people like, well, people and not incarnations of evil.
 
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I think the problem in the Muslim world is not Islam. It is that fundamentalists have too much power.

But why do the fundamentalists have such power? Enabled by the religion, of course. Once you elevate a medieval Mein Kampf to the level of the sacred and of the oh-so-fcking-true-my-balls-just-fell-off, prepare for all hell breaking loose.

They don't have power just because they have this amazing religion that gets it for them.

Ever since oil was found in the region the West has carried out activities that have fueled and enabled fundamentalism. From supporting the Saudi dictatorship, to installing the Shah, to supporting fundamentalists in the fight against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, to the diplomatic cover of Israeli crimes and theft at the UN, to the invasion of Iraq, and countless other things, all these things have greatly increased the power of fundamentalists.

Look at the hysteria in the US after 911.

Iraq underwent hundreds of 911's. The violence did nothing but strengthen extreme fundamentalists.

The problem is the power of fundamentalists and the power of religion in general. The problem is not any particular religion.
 
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