Derail from Feminist Gamer: Catcalling on the Streets

[RavenSky]

Shoshana B. Roberts — who walked around New York City for 10 hours while being filmed by a hidden camera so that she could record the harassment she received from men on the street — is already getting rape threats.

Women quickly learn that as awful as catcalling is, they can't respond to it. To respond is to risk being harassed more, or followed, or worse. To respond is to risk making the man who is shouting at you on the street, after dark, actually angry.

Similarly, the response to Roberts's video is so offensive because it is, again, so familiar. Rape and death threats have become a standard response to any woman who dares to speak out on the internet about, well, anything. Look at #Gamergate. Look at Emma Watson. And there, too, to respond is to risk making it worse. When geek hero Felicia Day lamented the harassment of women in #Gamergate, her home address and other personal information was posted online. To respond is to risk making the men who are digging through your personal information and threatening to rape or kill you actually angry.

This video wasn't made for women facing harassment. It was made for men who remain blissfully unaware of how women are treated when they walk down the street. But instead of listening, instead of taking the time to realize how women might feel when men yell at them, these commenters — backed by their anonymity and privilege — have threatened to rape Roberts for daring to talk about it.

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/29/7088867/catcall-video-hollaback-rape-threats

 

[Axulus]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

 

[ksen]

Now? No, that's always been harassment.

 

[Axulus]

Now? No, that's always been harassment.

"How are you this evening?" or "have a nice evening" has always been harassment? Are you serious?

Is there some sort of unwritten code that talking to strangers in public is off limits harassment that I've completely missed?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

In the middle of a night so dark that black is just a lighter shade of pale
In the middle of a sleep so deep that the ocean seems like a kiddy pool
In the middle of a dream so real you taste the color and touch the sound
In the middle of a peace so still that you can hear god’s heart beat
You hear it

Ring. Ring.

Confused and dazed and half in dreams half in foggy consciousness
You reach through the midst of smoke and shadow and then you hear

“Yo Baby what’s up”

In the middle of a day so bright the sun not shines but sings its light
In the middle of a song that only you can hear in your very inner ear
In the middle of a music that’s somewhere between Bach and Basie
In the middle of a rapture that just makes you feel like “Damn life is Good”
You hear it

(Wolf whistle)

Confused and startled and half in fantasy and half in bare awareness
You turn into the blinding day star, look up and around and then you hear

“Yo baby what’s up”

What was I thinking?

To think that there was a place even in my own mind
That was just for me.
A place where dicks and pricks and balls and sheer unmitigated gall
Were simply not allowed to be.

What was I thinking?

To think that I exist outside of high cut briefs and a double d cup
That I had a mind
A place defined by me inside of me that was just for me
Where I could be … alone

Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am here for your entertainment
Thank you, my bother
For reminding me that I am here to bring you release
Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am your queen, your goddess, your possession
Thank you, my brother
For rescuing me from my selfish obsession
With the idea that I could just be … me

 

[RavenSky]

Now? No, that's always been harassment.

"How are you this evening?" or "have a nice evening" has always been harassment? Are you serious?

Is there some sort of unwritten code that talking to strangers in public is off limits harassment that I've completely missed?

Apparently, yes.

 

[Juma]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

Yes. Of course. There is no friendliness and goid will in those greetings, just an uncontromled libido.

 

[Axulus]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

Yes. Of course. There is no friendliness and goid will in those greetings, just an uncontromled libido.

Is it because she is walking? If they were standing at a bus stop, is it now appropriate because there is time to chat to get to know each other, or is talking to strangers strictly off limits unless in a bar or something?

 

[Juma]

Yes. Of course. There is no friendliness and goid will in those greetings, just an uncontromled libido.

Is it because she is walking? If they were standing at a bus stop, is it now appropriate because there is time to chat to get to know each other, or is talking to strangers strictly off limits unless in a bar or something?

What is wrong with you? You surely do not realize that ca

 

[Axulus]

Is it because she is walking? If they were standing at a bus stop, is it now appropriate because there is time to chat to get to know each other, or is talking to strangers strictly off limits unless in a bar or something?

What is wrong with you? You surely do not realize that ca

Harassment in my mind means pressuring someone to do something they don't want to by being overly aggressive or intimidating/threatening them in some way, NOT merely giving someone unwanted attention. Am I being "harassed" under this loose definition when a pan handler says to me "good day, can you spare some change?" There is no good will in his greeting, he just wants some of my change.

I would say no. It does become harassment if he gets up in my face and starts acting threatening or doesn't leave it alone if I say "no" to his question. Are pan handlers annoying? Sometimes, but I would never say the behavior of the vast majority of them rises to the level of harassment.

 

[Juma]

What is wrong with you? You surely do not realize that ca

Harassment in my mind means pressuring someone to do something they don't want to by being overly aggressive or intimidating/threatening them in some way, NOT merely giving someone unwanted attention. Am I being "harassed" under this loose definition when a pan handler says to me "good day, can you spare some change?" There is no good will in his greeting, he just wants some of my change.

I would say no. It does become harassment if he gets up in my face and starts acting threatening or doesn't leave it alone if I say "no" to his question. Are pan handlers annoying? Sometimes, but I would never say the behavior of the vast majority of them rises to the level of harassment.

What planet are you from? The harassement lies in you never knowing how far these guys go. A pan handler that assaults you? Not common. A guy raping women? Just too common. There is the harassement.

 

[Axulus]

So extroverted/outgoing men complimenting a good looking woman or greeting her on the street now constitutes harassment?

In the middle of a night so dark that black is just a lighter shade of pale
In the middle of a sleep so deep that the ocean seems like a kiddy pool
In the middle of a dream so real you taste the color and touch the sound
In the middle of a peace so still that you can hear god’s heart beat
You hear it

Ring. Ring.

Confused and dazed and half in dreams half in foggy consciousness
You reach through the midst of smoke and shadow and then you hear

“Yo Baby what’s up”

In the middle of a day so bright the sun not shines but sings its light
In the middle of a song that only you can hear in your very inner ear
In the middle of a music that’s somewhere between Bach and Basie
In the middle of a rapture that just makes you feel like “Damn life is Good”
You hear it

(Wolf whistle)

Confused and startled and half in fantasy and half in bare awareness
You turn into the blinding day star, look up and around and then you hear

“Yo baby what’s up”

What was I thinking?

To think that there was a place even in my own mind
That was just for me.
A place where dicks and pricks and balls and sheer unmitigated gall
Were simply not allowed to be.

What was I thinking?

To think that I exist outside of high cut briefs and a double d cup
That I had a mind
A place defined by me inside of me that was just for me
Where I could be … alone

Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am here for your entertainment
Thank you, my bother
For reminding me that I am here to bring you release
Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am your queen, your goddess, your possession
Thank you, my brother
For rescuing me from my selfish obsession
With the idea that I could just be … me

Your examples constitute leering or disrespectful speech directed at the person, not the examples I'm referring to such as "You look really beautiful" or "Have a nice evening" or "How are you doing today?"

Note that, for the video in question, I agree that some of the actions constitute harassment and disrespect. I'm specifically referring to these other cases that I didn't know were considered disrespectful and harassment.

If you consider these examples harassment, then is it your opinion that a pan handler who says to you "good day, can you spare some change?" is harassing you?

 

[Arctish]

IMO most of the call-outs in that video aren't harassment by themselves, but the cumulative effect can feel like it. If you can't simply walk down the street without random guys shouting "Notice me!" at you, then you really can't have a nice quiet walk, can you? Especially when some guys get offended and start making less friendly comments when you just keep walking. And most especially when one of them insists on being noticed by stalking you for 5 minutes.

 

[Axulus]

IMO most of the call-outs in that video aren't harassment by themselves, but the cumulative effect can feel like it. If you can't simply walk down the street without random guys shouting "Notice me!" at you, then you really can't have a nice quiet walk, can you? Especially when some guys get offended and start making less friendly comments when you just keep walking. And most especially when one of them insists on being noticed by stalking you for 5 minutes.

The thing is, several are taking the position that all of the call-outs were harassment by themselves. I agree that the guy who walked with her for 5 minutes was creepy and harassing. I agree that those who insulted her and intimated her for not smiling or saying thank you were engaging in harassment. Those who were making disrespectful comments on her appearance? That is borderline. Really classless and bad manners, sure, but harassment is usually a step above just being an annoying classless jerk, rising to the level of intimidation or threats. Those who greeted her: "hope you're having a nice evening", or "you are really beautiful" didn't even seem to constitute bad manners to me, until I read this thread where, not only is it bad manners, it is harassment.

 

[Axulus]

Harassment in my mind means pressuring someone to do something they don't want to by being overly aggressive or intimidating/threatening them in some way, NOT merely giving someone unwanted attention. Am I being "harassed" under this loose definition when a pan handler says to me "good day, can you spare some change?" There is no good will in his greeting, he just wants some of my change.

I would say no. It does become harassment if he gets up in my face and starts acting threatening or doesn't leave it alone if I say "no" to his question. Are pan handlers annoying? Sometimes, but I would never say the behavior of the vast majority of them rises to the level of harassment.

What planet are you from? The harassement lies in you never knowing how far these guys go. A pan handler that assaults you? Not common. A guy raping women? Just too common. There is the harassement.

Is every guy that looks at you harassment? I'm not talking about leering and/or staring, but rather just takes a look for a few seconds to admire the beauty? You never know how far he'll go.

 

[Metaphor]

What is wrong with you? You surely do not realize that ca

Harassment in my mind means pressuring someone to do something they don't want to by being overly aggressive or intimidating/threatening them in some way, NOT merely giving someone unwanted attention. Am I being "harassed" under this loose definition when a pan handler says to me "good day, can you spare some change?" There is no good will in his greeting, he just wants some of my change.

I would say no. It does become harassment if he gets up in my face and starts acting threatening or doesn't leave it alone if I say "no" to his question. Are pan handlers annoying? Sometimes, but I would never say the behavior of the vast majority of them rises to the level of harassment.

I think rather than argue over the semantic differential between 'harassent' and 'unwanted attention', for me the issue is 'is it okay to give someone unwanted attention' and 'what is the cumulative effect of many people doing this'.

I get a lot of unwanted attention because of my height, and if I could choose, I'd rather most of those people didn't talk to me. Being told that I am tall is not news to me, and I can't fathom what these people think they're contributing to my life.*

Many of the men portrayed in the video are simply downright uncivil, and don't seem to understand, or at least don't care about, very obvious social signals. (If someone doesn't respond or look at you even though they clearly heard what you said, it means they don't want to interact with you. MOVE ON.)

*I give public permission for hot guys to talk to me, even complete strangers, even if I'm in an elevator in a foreign country. But you better be sure you're hot.

 

[Juma]

What planet are you from? The harassement lies in you never knowing how far these guys go. A pan handler that assaults you? Not common. A guy raping women? Just too common. There is the harassement.

Is every guy that looks at you harassment? I'm not talking about leering and/or staring, but rather just takes a look for a few seconds to admire the beauty? You never know how far he'll go.

"Just take a look for a few seconds to admire the beauty"?

This is exactly the problem: you dont realize that eyeing someone out also is a signal that you are interested. That your body language are saying: i wanna fuck you.

 

[ksen]

Now? No, that's always been harassment.

"How are you this evening?" or "have a nice evening" has always been harassment? Are you serious?

Is there some sort of unwritten code that talking to strangers in public is off limits harassment that I've completely missed?

goalposts moved

 

[RavenSky]

IMO most of the call-outs in that video aren't harassment by themselves, but the cumulative effect can feel like it. If you can't simply walk down the street without random guys shouting "Notice me!" at you, then you really can't have a nice quiet walk, can you? Especially when some guys get offended and start making less friendly comments when you just keep walking. And most especially when one of them insists on being noticed by stalking you for 5 minutes.

I agree that the incessant nature of this type of sexual harrassment is a large part of why even the mildest intrusion is still considered offensive. Moreover, when a woman is walking down the street wearing what Jessica Williams at the Daily Show called "bitch face", it means "don't bother me". The men catcalling know this - that's why so many of them comment on her expression. So even the most seemingly innocuous comment is the man telling the woman that his immediately needs/wants/desires are more important to him than her personal autonomy. That is never anything other than harrassment.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

In the middle of a night so dark that black is just a lighter shade of pale
In the middle of a sleep so deep that the ocean seems like a kiddy pool
In the middle of a dream so real you taste the color and touch the sound
In the middle of a peace so still that you can hear god’s heart beat
You hear it

Ring. Ring.

Confused and dazed and half in dreams half in foggy consciousness
You reach through the midst of smoke and shadow and then you hear

“Yo Baby what’s up”

In the middle of a day so bright the sun not shines but sings its light
In the middle of a song that only you can hear in your very inner ear
In the middle of a music that’s somewhere between Bach and Basie
In the middle of a rapture that just makes you feel like “Damn life is Good”
You hear it

(Wolf whistle)

Confused and startled and half in fantasy and half in bare awareness
You turn into the blinding day star, look up and around and then you hear

“Yo baby what’s up”

What was I thinking?

To think that there was a place even in my own mind
That was just for me.
A place where dicks and pricks and balls and sheer unmitigated gall
Were simply not allowed to be.

What was I thinking?

To think that I exist outside of high cut briefs and a double d cup
That I had a mind
A place defined by me inside of me that was just for me
Where I could be … alone

Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am here for your entertainment
Thank you, my bother
For reminding me that I am here to bring you release
Thank you, my brother
For reminding me that I am your queen, your goddess, your possession
Thank you, my brother
For rescuing me from my selfish obsession
With the idea that I could just be … me

Your examples constitute leering or disrespectful speech directed at the person, not the examples I'm referring to such as "You look really beautiful" or "Have a nice evening" or "How are you doing today?"

Note that, for the video in question, I agree that some of the actions constitute harassment and disrespect. I'm specifically referring to these other cases that I didn't know were considered disrespectful and harassment.

If you consider these examples harassment, then is it your opinion that a pan handler who says to you "good day, can you spare some change?" is harassing you?

So you like, the men in the piece, don't really give a damn about how I feel about intrusions in my life. Or about how any woman feels about intrusions made by any man into her life. It's all about what you think, what the man thinks, and the if the woman doesn't understand that then something is wrong with her.

Do you not get what harassment means? it is "characteristically repetitive" It is not about one guy saying

"You look really beautiful" or "Have a nice evening" or "How are you doing today?"

But you already know that.

And you do realize that in many places, panhandling is illegal, right? That asking people for money, female or male, is seen as disturbing the peace, as a form of harassment, and can get you a free ride in a police car?