This week in the strange death of America: Professor removed for using Mandarin word that sounds like a slur in English

[Metaphor]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...gainst-words-sound-like-are-not-slurs/616404/

This is a long read. I have selectively quoted it below.

The article points to similar incidents, as late as 1999, where people had taken offence to words that were not slurs but evoked them. But back then, the media ridiculed the offence taking.

The brazen entitlement, hysteria, and calculated malice by the students putting in the complaint, evident from the language and misrepresentations in their letter, is also disheartening to read.

If your only response is to tell me people are dying of COVID-19 while I fret over this, I respectfully request you do not point that out to me.

When the news began circulating on social media, many couldn’t believe it was true––that the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California would remove a longtime professor from a class because a Mandarin word he used correctly in a lesson sounded sort of like a racial slur. One skeptic warned that the “ridiculous sounding story” seemed like a “fabricated Reddit meme.” Another was suspicious that it so neatly fit a narrative of “wacky campus leftists repressing free speech.”


Then angry faculty and alumni began confirming the story: During a Zoom class on August 20, Greg Patton, a 53-year-old professor, told students that in business settings they should avoid filler words such as um or er. Then he gave another example of a filler word that—I learned—he added to his lecture perhaps five years ago to be more inclusive of international students. “Like in China, the common word is that—that, that, that, that,” he explained. “So in China it might be nèi ge—nèi ge, nèi ge, nèi ge. So there’s different words that you’ll hear in different countries.”


To some students, the Mandarin word, rendered 那个, sounded too much like the N-word for their liking. They sent a letter of complaint to administrators and pressed their grievance in a meeting. Soon after, Patton was removed from the class, investigated, and excoriated in a mass email. “Professor Greg Patton repeated several times a Chinese word that sounds very similar to a vile racial slur,” Geoffrey Garrett, the Marshall School’s dean, wrote. “Understandably, this caused great pain and upset among students, and for that I am deeply sorry. It is simply unacceptable for faculty to use words in class that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our students.”

 

[repoman]

"I'm So Tired" is the new "We Shall Overcome"

 

[Politesse]

I certainly wouldn't make a "joke" like that in front of my students. He obviously knew that what he was saying would come across as a white guy "getting away with" using the n-word due to a supposedly humorous context (an experience Black students have to put up with constantly) because his whole story does not make sense unless you are aware of the homophone and why it would cause a problem. Especially since he very likely misprounounced neige in order to make said joke work at all. Removal seems like an extreme step, but universities are protective of their image for good reason. Financially speaking, keeping disruptive staff members on out of principle isn't usually worth the potential drop in enrollment and therefore state apportionment, which in California is based on a combination of enrollment and an estimation of student demographics/need. Specifically going out of your way to offend minority students is makes you therefore a double threat to the financial solvency of the school. Without a student complaint, this probably wouldn't have resulted in anything more than a stern conversation. But once the media is involved, harsher measures are a practicla necessity. It's likely he'll be seen on staff again in a few terms, if he hasn't seized the moment to retire. You brush aside COVID lightly, but it is not a light matter; the school system USC belongs to is already looking at possibly 20%-30% cuts in funding come Spring if nothing is done, and the president is threatening to cancel as much federal funding to the college system in California as he possibly can. If you want a system where the UCs can afford to keep people on staff while they intentionally drive away enrolled students, you are otherwise backing the wrong political horse.

 

[J842P]

I certainly wouldn't make a "joke" like that in front of my students. He obviously knew that what he was saying would come across as a white guy "getting away with" using the n-word due to a supposedly humorous context (an experience Black students have to put up with constantly) because his whole story does not make sense unless you are aware of the homophone and why it would cause a problem. Especially since he veyr likely misprounounced neige in order to make said joke work at all. .

He wasn't making a joke. Why do you say that? Here's the clip:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24JhHLpgjXI[/YOUTUBE]

Quite frankly, the students who complained are deranged. If it is true that their mental health was affected, then they probably don't belong at a university.

This certainly doesn't require anything in response, not even a "stern conversation".

 

[laughing dog]

I live in America and I didn't realize it is dead. Certainly doesn't seem dead to me. In fact, this OP indicates America is pretty lively.

I think the students over-reacted and the dean over-reacted. But to claim this part of a "strange death" is hysterical rhetoric.

 

[fromderinside]

Excepting five members in my family who went to USC I believe most all USC alums are crazy. I was a professional in LA so I do know. Trojan mafia and all that.

 

[Axulus]

Even The Onion couldn't make up better material than this

 

[ZiprHead]

If anything becomes the death of America, it will be Trump.

 

[Metaphor]

I certainly wouldn't make a "joke" like that in front of my students.

He wasn't making a joke. He had introduced the phrase five years ago as a conscious attempt to make his course more inclusive by including examples of filler phrases in languages other than English.

He obviously knew that what he was saying would come across as a white guy "getting away with" using the n-word due to a supposedly humorous context (an experience Black students have to put up with constantly) because his whole story does not make sense unless you are aware of the homophone and why it would cause a problem. Especially since he very likely misprounounced neige in order to make said joke work at all.

Your prejudice against white men is showing, or you did not read the article, or both.

The students accused him of mispronouncing it, but Chinese people who have heard the recording have said he didn't.

Why does your mind go straight to malice? My name is one of the unpronounceables - to people of white Anglo-Celtic ancestry, Asians, and probably many other ancestries. I like it when people make an effort to say my name properly, but some people literally cannot do it. They can't hear the difference between what they are saying and what I am saying. I experience the same for some sounds in other languages.

Removal seems like an extreme step, but universities are protective of their image for good reason. Financially speaking, keeping disruptive staff members on out of principle isn't usually worth the potential drop in enrollment and therefore state apportionment, which in California is based on a combination of enrollment and an estimation of student demographics/need. Specifically going out of your way to offend minority students

Nobody did that.

is makes you therefore a double threat to the financial solvency of the school. Without a student complaint, this probably wouldn't have resulted in anything more than a stern conversation. But once the media is involved, harsher measures are a practicla necessity. It's likely he'll be seen on staff again in a few terms, if he hasn't seized the moment to retire. You brush aside COVID lightly, but it is not a light matter; the school system USC belongs to is already looking at possibly 20%-30% cuts in funding come Spring if nothing is done, and the president is threatening to cancel as much federal funding to the college system in California as he possibly can. If you want a system where the UCs can afford to keep people on staff while they intentionally drive away enrolled students, you are otherwise backing the wrong political horse.

I mentioned COVID-19 for a different reason; because many people on this board cannot abide me posting topics they don't like, and respond to my threads only to criticise my priorities.

 

[Metaphor]

I live in America and I didn't realize it is dead. Certainly doesn't seem dead to me. In fact, this OP indicates America is pretty lively.

I think the students over-reacted and the dean over-reacted. But to claim this part of a "strange death" is hysterical rhetoric.

We've been through this before; it's sad that you don't understand the figurative speech in my thread title.

 

[Politesse]

He wasn't making a joke. He had introduced the phrase five years ago as a conscious attempt to make his course more inclusive by including examples of filler phrases in languages other than English.

Then he's incredibly bad at projects of inclusion. Telling a joke that will make the white students chuckle and everyone else cringe does not come across as "inclusion" to anyone. I wasn't born yesterday.

Your prejudice against white men is showing, or you did not read the article, or both.

It has nothing to do with his skin color except the seeming inappropriateness it lends to the situation. The vast majority of my colleagues in academia are white men, as am I, and we all manage to give hours and hours of lectures every week without once making jokes about incompetent Asian businessmen and the dirtiest word in American race relations. The problem is not his skin color, it's his stupidity and thoughtless malice toward the feelings of others .

The students accused him of mispronouncing it, but Chinese people who have heard the recording have said he didn't.

Anyone who knows the slightest thing about Mandarin knows that it is a tonal language. I'm sure your conservative social media nitwits found some Asian to endorse him, but realistically that's not going to be the capstone to the affair.

Why does your mind go straight to malice? My name is one of the unpronounceables - to people of white Anglo-Celtic ancestry, Asians, and probably many other ancestries. I like it when people make an effort to say my name properly, but some people literally cannot do it. They can't hear the difference between what they are saying and what I am saying. I experience the same for some sounds in other languages.

Which is fine, if you aren't peddling some bullshit about trying to be inclusive of other languages in your lectures. If your name were actually a part of your supposed lesson, and not just a cheap joke to get laughs from white students, I would expect you to learn how to pronounce it before including it. Again, this guy seems more incompetent than malicious, but his fate was unavoidable the second the complaints were lodged, for money alone if no other reason, and he could easily have avoided the problem by not including something so obviously problematic and race-baiting in his lectures to begin with.

Nobody did that.

Anybody with a brain, and any experience teaching, could have told you this would eventually be the outcome. Making jokes about n*ggers and things that sound like n*ggers is not something you can do innocently or accidentally in the US, or without realizing that someone, somewhere, might be upset by what you've said. Like, at some point, the realization that you are referencing the dirtiest word in US social politics is going to occur to you. So he's either phenomenally dumb, or he actually wanted, as do a great many conservatives in my country, to be made a martyr for his cause.

 

[J842P]

Then he's incredibly bad at projects of inclusion. Telling a joke that will make the white students chuckle and everyone else cringe does not come across as "inclusion" to anyone. I wasn't born yesterday.

It has nothing to do with his skin color except the seeming inappropriateness it lends to the situation. The vast majority of my colleagues in academia are white men, as am I, and we all manage to give hours and hours of lectures every week without once making jokes about incompetent Asian businessmen and the dirtiest word in American race relations. The problem is not his skin color, it's his stupidity and thoughtless malice toward the feelings of others .

The students accused him of mispronouncing it, but Chinese people who have heard the recording have said he didn't.

Anyone who knows the slightest thing about Mandarin knows that it is a tonal language. I'm sure your conservative social media nitwits found some Asian to endorse him, but realistically that's not going to be the capstone to the affair.

Why does your mind go straight to malice? My name is one of the unpronounceables - to people of white Anglo-Celtic ancestry, Asians, and probably many other ancestries. I like it when people make an effort to say my name properly, but some people literally cannot do it. They can't hear the difference between what they are saying and what I am saying. I experience the same for some sounds in other languages.

Which is fine, if you aren't peddling some bullshit about trying to be inclusive of other languages in your lectures. If your name were actually a part of your supposed lesson, and not just a cheap joke to get laughs from white students, I would expect you to learn how to pronounce it before including it. Again, this guy seems more incompetent than malicious, but his fate was unavoidable the second the complaints were lodged, for money alone if no other reason, and he could easily have avoided the problem by not including something so obviously problematic and race-baiting in his lectures to begin with.

Nobody did that.

Anybody with a brain, and any experience teaching, could have told you this would eventually be the outcome. Making jokes about n*ggers and things that sound like n*ggers is not something you can do innocently or accidentally in the US, or without realizing that someone, somewhere, might be upset by what you've said. Like, at some point, the realization that you are referencing the dirtiest word in US social politics is going to occur to you. So he's either phenomenally dumb, or he actually wanted, as do a great many conservatives in my country, to be made a martyr for his cause.

You have no evidene it was a joke. And I've already posted the clip, and it doesn't come across as him trying to tell a joke. You are just making shit up because you are totally ideologically possessed.

 

[Metaphor]

Then he's incredibly bad at projects of inclusion. Telling a joke

It was not a joke. He had included the phrase for five years without anyone raising an eyebrow.

that will make the white students chuckle and everyone else cringe does not come across as "inclusion" to anyone. I wasn't born yesterday.

You are right, you were not born yesterday. It takes time for somebody to be as deeply prejudiced as you are.

It has nothing to do with his skin color except the seeming inappropriateness it lends to the situation. The vast majority of my colleagues in academia are white men, as am I, and we all manage to give hours and hours of lectures every week without once making jokes about incompetent Asian businessmen and the dirtiest word in American race relations. The problem is not his skin color, it's his stupidity and thoughtless malice toward the feelings of others .

It was not a joke.

Anyone who knows the slightest thing about Mandarin knows that it is a tonal language. I'm sure your conservative social media nitwits found some Asian to endorse him, but realistically that's not going to be the capstone to the affair.

It is evident you haven't read the article, or you have failed to process what's in the article. Please stop replying until you have done both.

Which is fine, if you aren't peddling some bullshit about trying to be inclusive of other languages in your lectures. If your name were actually a part of your supposed lesson, and not just a cheap joke to get laughs from white students,

It was not a joke.

I would expect you to learn how to pronounce it before including it. Again, this guy seems more incompetent than malicious, but his fate was unavoidable the second the complaints were lodged, for money alone if no other reason, and he could easily have avoided the problem by not including something so obviously problematic and race-baiting in his lectures to begin with.

He had included it for five years in the same course he had taught previously. Nobody raised an eyebrow, including all the students who went to the same course. It was not obviously problematic then and it is not obviously problematic now.

Anybody with a brain, and any experience teaching, could have told you this would eventually be the outcome. Making jokes about n*ggers and things that sound like n*ggers

He did not make a joke.

is not something you can do innocently or accidentally in the US, or without realizing that someone, somewhere, might be upset by what you've said. Like, at some point, the realization that you are referencing the dirtiest word in US social politics is going to occur to you. So he's either phenomenally dumb, or he actually wanted, as do a great many conservatives in my country, to be made a martyr for his cause.

He was not referencing the word.

 

[Axulus]

The responses I'm seeing about how it was a bad joke that was obviously inappropriate is a textbook example of how fake news and misinformation gets so easily spread to fit one's ideological narrative about any and every event even remotely political. Welcome to the Facebook Twitter age. I hope we can recover, but I'm not optimistic it will happen any time soon.

 

[Politesse]

If you don't think it was intended as a joke, I'm confused as to what you think it was.

He had included it for five years in the same course he had taught previously. Nobody raised an eyebrow, including all the students who went to the same course. It was not obviously problematic then and it is not obviously problematic now.

You and I clearly have different definitions of the word "problematic" as well. Mine is, "causes a problem".

 

[Metaphor]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...gainst-words-sound-like-are-not-slurs/616404/

This is a long read. I have selectively quoted it below.

The article points to similar incidents, as late as 1999, where people had taken offence to words that were not slurs but evoked them. But back then, the media ridiculed the offence taking.

The brazen entitlement, hysteria, and calculated malice by the students putting in the complaint, evident from the language and misrepresentations in their letter, is also disheartening to read.

If your only response is to tell me people are dying of COVID-19 while I fret over this, I respectfully request you do not point that out to me.

When the news began circulating on social media, many couldn’t believe it was true––that the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California would remove a longtime professor from a class because a Mandarin word he used correctly in a lesson sounded sort of like a racial slur. One skeptic warned that the “ridiculous sounding story” seemed like a “fabricated Reddit meme.” Another was suspicious that it so neatly fit a narrative of “wacky campus leftists repressing free speech.”


Then angry faculty and alumni began confirming the story: During a Zoom class on August 20, Greg Patton, a 53-year-old professor, told students that in business settings they should avoid filler words such as um or er. Then he gave another example of a filler word that—I learned—he added to his lecture perhaps five years ago to be more inclusive of international students. “Like in China, the common word is that—that, that, that, that,” he explained. “So in China it might be nèi ge—nèi ge, nèi ge, nèi ge. So there’s different words that you’ll hear in different countries.”


To some students, the Mandarin word, rendered 那个, sounded too much like the N-word for their liking. They sent a letter of complaint to administrators and pressed their grievance in a meeting. Soon after, Patton was removed from the class, investigated, and excoriated in a mass email. “Professor Greg Patton repeated several times a Chinese word that sounds very similar to a vile racial slur,” Geoffrey Garrett, the Marshall School’s dean, wrote. “Understandably, this caused great pain and upset among students, and for that I am deeply sorry. It is simply unacceptable for faculty to use words in class that can marginalize, hurt and harm the psychological safety of our students.”

To address the note at the top, I did not post the entire article. I posted selected paragraphs, and I added an extra space with '...' in between paragraphs where I had edited out paragraphs.

 

[laughing dog]

I live in America and I didn't realize it is dead. Certainly doesn't seem dead to me. In fact, this OP indicates America is pretty lively.

I think the students over-reacted and the dean over-reacted. But to claim this part of a "strange death" is hysterical rhetoric.

We've been through this before; it's sad that you don't understand the figurative speech in my thread title.

To quote you, words have meaning. I understand the purpose of "figurative" speech. I understand it is fucking stupid hyperbole to represent your indignation instead of a reasoned analysis.

 

[laughing dog]

If you don't think it was intended as a joke, I'm confused as to what you think it was.

He had included it for five years in the same course he had taught previously. Nobody raised an eyebrow, including all the students who went to the same course. It was not obviously problematic then and it is not obviously problematic now.

You and I clearly have different definitions of the word "problematic" as well. Mine is, "causes a problem".

If you go to this professor's website, it says he is an expert in communication.

 

[Metaphor]

If you don't think it was intended as a joke, I'm confused as to what you think it was.

He had included it for five years in the same course he had taught previously. Nobody raised an eyebrow, including all the students who went to the same course. It was not obviously problematic then and it is not obviously problematic now.

You and I clearly have different definitions of the word "problematic" as well. Mine is, "causes a problem".

I have a problem with your attitude. Are you problematic?

 

[Metaphor]

I live in America and I didn't realize it is dead. Certainly doesn't seem dead to me. In fact, this OP indicates America is pretty lively.

I think the students over-reacted and the dean over-reacted. But to claim this part of a "strange death" is hysterical rhetoric.

We've been through this before; it's sad that you don't understand the figurative speech in my thread title.

To quote you, words have meaning. I understand the purpose of "figurative" speech. I understand it is fucking stupid hyperbole to represent your indignation instead of a reasoned analysis.

Well, I simply do not value your opinion on my thread titles.