Religion sucks

[SLD]

Religion sucks. Seriously. It really is a horrible institution that is guilty of many crimes throughout history. If it were only history I wouldn’t care so much, but it’s reign of terror in our country continues unabated and it is getting worse. Religion is a big driver of division and discord in our country. It is fundamentally racist. Without religion Donald Trump would never have even come close to being nominated, much less elected. We’d have real debates on the efficacy of conservative and liberal policies.

Religion however demands that all adhere to its stupid dogma. It’s irrationality that’s raised to the untouchable level. It’s unquestionable, yet so blatantly obviously bullshit. You’re not allowed to call it out in polite society, but proselytizing on street corners is fine. If you dare to oppose it openly you’re branded as unpatriotic, and accused of trying to outlaw religious freedom.

Religion wants you to believe that a 2000 year old middle eastern zombie is the savior of all humanity and must be worshipped above all things. This despite his absence for 1988 years (+/-). Give me a fucking break. BRB!

Religion teaches us to hate gays, and really anyone who disagrees with us. It tries to repress the most basic rights of women and effectively return them to the status of chattel to their menfolk. It is also sexually repressive to men as well, forcing normal men to lurk around for sexual outlets that they desire and it comes out in unnatural ways such as with vulnerable children.

Religion is against basic scientific principles. Science and logic and reason are the opposite of religion. Religion cannot abide such competition. Thus it seeks to repress scientific education in the country. You may not be able to teach creationism in schools, but just try teaching evolution and see what happens. Same is true for climate change. We have failed generations of school children as a result. Trump is a symptom.

It is a death cult focused on some imaginary afterlife at the expense of building a peaceful and just society. After all what’s 80 years or so of suffering compared to an eternity of bliss? Thus many religions shun medical practice for prayer. What bullshit. For millennia people prayed for cures, but only science delivered them. Religion must be logically rejected.

Religion seeks absolute political power, and it has virtually achieved it, despite growing numbers of nones. The Family provides housing for our representatives and senators and no one questions it. Preachers preach politics nowadays from the pulpit and the IRS says not a word. They pay no taxes and if anyone dares to question their status, well oh my, they’re against religious freedom. It’s now likely to impose its views via the Supreme Court now dominated by religious conservatives. It is used to justify voting against ones basic economic interests while really allied with corporate greed. Tax cuts are now a religious issue.

It is no accident that the KKK is a Christian organization. Heck, the Bible justifies slavery. Obey your masters! That is the mandate of religion. That’s why kings and despots have used it for centuries to control their populations. It is a war loving institution. They all claim to be religions of peace, but only to those who bend to their particular brand. All others must be put to the sword. Look at 9/11, or even the first and second world wars. Not to mention the crusades. Really every war.

Yes religion sucks. I say fuck it. I’m sick of these religious fucktards like Amy Barrett and their condescending shit. Religion should die. The sooner the better. I just wish I could hurry it along.

 

[Coleman Smith]

Now tell us how you really feel about it.

 

[Atheos]

At the risk of sounding pedantic I think the OP is largely about fundamentalist Christianity, not religion in general. Fundamentalism sucks, that's for sure, whether Christian, Islamic or Incan. Once you get to the point where the life and liberty of others is less important than your religious dogma you've crossed the suckage line.

 

[DBT]

Faith is the foundation of religion. Faith sucks.

Faith, a belief held without the support of evidence, sucks because it permits any sort of unjustified or absurd belief to flourish.

"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)

 

[ideologyhunter]

Well, you're going to hell, it's that simple.
Whereas me, I'm going to be with Jesus and Ronald Reagan and Dale Evans. And Ethel Waters.
Are you sure you want to tempt fate? As Buckwheat said, "You need to git otay with God because it can't do no harm." That is called Rascal's Wager.
You better get some Jesus and drive a wedge up Satan's buttcrack before it's too late.

 

[Brian63]

SLD--

Atheos makes an important caveat about the dangers being focused on fundamentalism rather than more moderate religions (although I think the latter enable the former, so we should get rid of them both). I think you are right in your frustration with religion. It is responsible for so much harm throughout human history, the present day, and will be in the future. It is simply stunning that in the 21st century we still effectively have people behaving as if we were surrounded by magic, wizards, witches, etc. Except it takes the form of religion. Just as nonsensical. It all belongs in the dustbin of history.

Even among atheists (some on this forum, who I shall not name), many still dogmatically and repeatedly hold to the mantra of "As long as they do not impose it on me, then I do not care what they believe." That line is clearly horseshit. Religion cannot restrain itself. It survives only by imposing itself onto others via numerous methods and extents. Even if it is not done through direct legislation, it still affects the psychology, morals, and rationality of people. So it affects us still.

Regardless of the outcomes of this election in the U.S. coming up, I do think atheists have to take a more prominent role in the movement for progress. Religion is a massive focus of harm to the world, and atheists/freethinkers/humanists seem to be among the few that realize that. That is one of my life goals, and I hope other atheists would be willing to join in.

This entire forum helped changed my life for the better when I first encountered it a couple decades ago. Becoming aware of the existence of the need to have a sound worldview (in contrast to religion) was an eye-opener for me. Now, it seems this place has devolved into more of a casual hangout to talk about entertainment or hobbies, alongside whining about politics for the purpose of driving up our egos. There is less of a focus on anything about enhancing the status of atheists in the world and criticizing religion. There used to be a subforum called "Positive Atheism and Secular Activism" and I never understood why that was scrapped. Atheists elsewhere around the internet have become more proactive, and now have other popular podcasts, Twitter and Facebook groups, websites, etc. Why does this forum even exist anymore? Why are we not contributing much to the promotion of secular activism? I really am not sure of the answer to that one.

Good post though. Thank you for writing that.

 

[southernhybrid]

SLD--

Atheos makes an important caveat about the dangers being focused on fundamentalism rather than more moderate religions (although I think the latter enable the former, so we should get rid of them both). I think you are right in your frustration with religion. It is responsible for so much harm throughout human history, the present day, and will be in the future. It is simply stunning that in the 21st century we still effectively have people behaving as if we were surrounded by magic, wizards, witches, etc. Except it takes the form of religion. Just as nonsensical. It all belongs in the dustbin of history.

Even among atheists (some on this forum, who I shall not name), many still dogmatically and repeatedly hold to the mantra of "As long as they do not impose it on me, then I do not care what they believe." That line is clearly horseshit. Religion cannot restrain itself. It survives only by imposing itself onto others via numerous methods and extents. Even if it is not done through direct legislation, it still affects the psychology, morals, and rationality of people. So it affects us still.

Regardless of the outcomes of this election in the U.S. coming up, I do think atheists have to take a more prominent role in the movement for progress. Religion is a massive focus of harm to the world, and atheists/freethinkers/humanists seem to be among the few that realize that. That is one of my life goals, and I hope other atheists would be willing to join in.

This entire forum helped changed my life for the better when I first encountered it a couple decades ago. Becoming aware of the existence of the need to have a sound worldview (in contrast to religion) was an eye-opener for me. Now, it seems this place has devolved into more of a casual hangout to talk about entertainment or hobbies, alongside whining about politics for the purpose of driving up our egos. There is less of a focus on anything about enhancing the status of atheists in the world and criticizing religion. There used to be a subforum called "Positive Atheism and Secular Activism" and I never understood why that was scrapped. Atheists elsewhere around the internet have become more proactive, and now have other popular podcasts, Twitter and Facebook groups, websites, etc. Why does this forum even exist anymore? Why are we not contributing much to the promotion of secular activism? I really am not sure of the answer to that one.

Good post though. Thank you for writing that.

Well, I'm one of those atheists who totally disagree with the idea that all aspects of religion are bad, that it's going away or that we atheists should help move it along. In fact, I find it very offensive to assume that we atheists should try to get rid of religion.

I have many Christian friends who are good people. Some of them find hope in their church communities. Some others are inspired to do charitable work due to their religion. We atheists have totally failed at some of the things that religion does, so I find it offensive to make generalizations about all aspects of religion. Unless we can replace the things that religion offers people, we have nothing to brag about.

So, tell me this. I have a very sweet, loving dirt poor Black female friend who is also extremely religious. She and I have never discussed religion but I know, due to her language that she is very religious. I've never told her that I'm an atheist because it's irrelevant to our relationship. I have given her money once to help her buy gifts for her grandchild and I've been very supportive of her when she needs to vent about her health issues.

I have another Black Christian friend who knows I'm an atheist. She is middle class. Neither of us care what the other believes since neither of us have ever used our beliefs to harm anyone or try to force anyone to believe what we do. We have too many other things in common to let this one aspect of our lives interfere with our relationship.

I have a White friend who is a Christian but never talks about it. She knows I'm an atheist and she doesn't care. We have many other things in common, despite being 20 years apart in age. She doesn't like fundamentalism any more than I do.

So, please tell me what can we atheists offer a person like my very poor friend? Where is the community that will take in a poor woman who has never had an opportunity for higher education, who has likely suffered from some degree of racism, who can barely pay her bills, etc. What the fuck do we atheists have to offer her? I think that secular humanism tried to be a secular religion, but that didn't work out too well.

Not all religious beliefs has been harmful. I find that idea very narrow minded. Not all religious people deny science or attack others who don't think like they do. Not all religions are divisive.

I agree that the OP describes fundamentalist varieties of religion, but I don't see Unitarians or liberal varieties of religion as being anything like what was mentioned in the OP. I have had some strident atheist friends. I value their friendship. I just don't agree with them when it comes to how they perceive religion.

When you say that atheists need to take a more prominent role in making progress, I'm sure you mean well, but that almost sounds like the evangelical religion that I was taught as a child. To me, that's a bit disturbing. My goal in life has always been to care for others, while doing my best not to judge them. Attacking all religion or making generalizations about all aspects of religion isn't going to help. Just because you and I have realized that no gods exist, doesn't mean that we are superior to others, or that we have all the answers to life.

But, I would be happy to agree that fundamentalist varieties of religion suck.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

One fact to keep in mind is that historically, atheists and religious dissidents generally have been systematically murdered. So there's a lot of selection pressure that explains the strong presence of religious behavior. If presently both religions and non religion were presented as wholesome, we'd see a lot less religion. We'll still have tribalism, however.

Associating empathy and decency with being religious is like associating whiteness with intelligence. If I'm going to judge a stranger as being better because that stranger is religious then I have a prejudice. If I judge a stranger as being better because they are not religious I have a prejudice. It's easy to do this because we all have personal experiences that shape our expectations. Best we think of religiousness as clothing.

 

[jab]

SLD--

Atheos makes an important caveat about the dangers being focused on fundamentalism rather than more moderate religions (although I think the latter enable the former, so we should get rid of them both). I think you are right in your frustration with religion. It is responsible for so much harm throughout human history, the present day, and will be in the future. It is simply stunning that in the 21st century we still effectively have people behaving as if we were surrounded by magic, wizards, witches, etc. Except it takes the form of religion. Just as nonsensical. It all belongs in the dustbin of history.

Even among atheists (some on this forum, who I shall not name), many still dogmatically and repeatedly hold to the mantra of "As long as they do not impose it on me, then I do not care what they believe." That line is clearly horseshit. Religion cannot restrain itself. It survives only by imposing itself onto others via numerous methods and extents. Even if it is not done through direct legislation, it still affects the psychology, morals, and rationality of people. So it affects us still.

Regardless of the outcomes of this election in the U.S. coming up, I do think atheists have to take a more prominent role in the movement for progress. Religion is a massive focus of harm to the world, and atheists/freethinkers/humanists seem to be among the few that realize that. That is one of my life goals, and I hope other atheists would be willing to join in.

This entire forum helped changed my life for the better when I first encountered it a couple decades ago. Becoming aware of the existence of the need to have a sound worldview (in contrast to religion) was an eye-opener for me. Now, it seems this place has devolved into more of a casual hangout to talk about entertainment or hobbies, alongside whining about politics for the purpose of driving up our egos. There is less of a focus on anything about enhancing the status of atheists in the world and criticizing religion. There used to be a subforum called "Positive Atheism and Secular Activism" and I never understood why that was scrapped. Atheists elsewhere around the internet have become more proactive, and now have other popular podcasts, Twitter and Facebook groups, websites, etc. Why does this forum even exist anymore? Why are we not contributing much to the promotion of secular activism? I really am not sure of the answer to that one.

Good post though. Thank you for writing that.

Well, I'm one of those atheists who totally disagree with the idea that all aspects of religion are bad, that it's going away or that we atheists should help move it along. In fact, I find it very offensive to assume that we atheists should try to get rid of religion.

I have many Christian friends who are good people. Some of them find hope in their church communities. Some others are inspired to do charitable work due to their religion. We atheists have totally failed at some of the things that religion does, so I find it offensive to make generalizations about all aspects of religion. Unless we can replace the things that religion offers people, we have nothing to brag about.

So, tell me this. I have a very sweet, loving dirt poor Black female friend who is also extremely religious. She and I have never discussed religion but I know, due to her language that she is very religious. I've never told her that I'm an atheist because it's irrelevant to our relationship. I have given her money once to help her buy gifts for her grandchild and I've been very supportive of her when she needs to vent about her health issues.

I have another Black Christian friend who knows I'm an atheist. She is middle class. Neither of us care what the other believes since neither of us have ever used our beliefs to harm anyone or try to force anyone to believe what we do. We have too many other things in common to let this one aspect of our lives interfere with our relationship.

I have a White friend who is a Christian but never talks about it. She knows I'm an atheist and she doesn't care. We have many other things in common, despite being 20 years apart in age. She doesn't like fundamentalism any more than I do.

So, please tell me what can we atheists offer a person like my very poor friend? Where is the community that will take in a poor woman who has never had an opportunity for higher education, who has likely suffered from some degree of racism, who can barely pay her bills, etc. What the fuck do we atheists have to offer her? I think that secular humanism tried to be a secular religion, but that didn't work out too well.

Not all religious beliefs has been harmful. I find that idea very narrow minded. Not all religious people deny science or attack others who don't think like they do. Not all religions are divisive.

I agree that the OP describes fundamentalist varieties of religion, but I don't see Unitarians or liberal varieties of religion as being anything like what was mentioned in the OP. I have had some strident atheist friends. I value their friendship. I just don't agree with them when it comes to how they perceive religion.

When you say that atheists need to take a more prominent role in making progress, I'm sure you mean well, but that almost sounds like the evangelical religion that I was taught as a child. To me, that's a bit disturbing. My goal in life has always been to care for others, while doing my best not to judge them. Attacking all religion or making generalizations about all aspects of religion isn't going to help. Just because you and I have realized that no gods exist, doesn't mean that we are superior to others, or that we have all the answers to life.

But, I would be happy to agree that fundamentalist varieties of religion suck.

Is Catholicism fundamentalist?
My parents were fundamantalist Christians and good people, and very left-wing economically.
Three problems with religion:
it is out of touch with reality and with rational thought.
When it is allied with political power it often becomes deadly--and religions that thrive tend to be those allied with political power.
The type of religion that is particularly dangerous is that that believes it has monopoly on truth, including moral truth, and knows the only way to eternal happiness for individual people. This danger is amplified when the religion is one that stresses converting others--e. g. Christianity and Islam. People who won't convert, who backslide, and especially those who try to convince others to deconvert are thus particularly dangerous to everyone's eternal happiness and need to be severely controlled, even exterminated.

 

[southernhybrid]

SLD--

Atheos makes an important caveat about the dangers being focused on fundamentalism rather than more moderate religions (although I think the latter enable the former, so we should get rid of them both). I think you are right in your frustration with religion. It is responsible for so much harm throughout human history, the present day, and will be in the future. It is simply stunning that in the 21st century we still effectively have people behaving as if we were surrounded by magic, wizards, witches, etc. Except it takes the form of religion. Just as nonsensical. It all belongs in the dustbin of history.

Even among atheists (some on this forum, who I shall not name), many still dogmatically and repeatedly hold to the mantra of "As long as they do not impose it on me, then I do not care what they believe." That line is clearly horseshit. Religion cannot restrain itself. It survives only by imposing itself onto others via numerous methods and extents. Even if it is not done through direct legislation, it still affects the psychology, morals, and rationality of people. So it affects us still.

Regardless of the outcomes of this election in the U.S. coming up, I do think atheists have to take a more prominent role in the movement for progress. Religion is a massive focus of harm to the world, and atheists/freethinkers/humanists seem to be among the few that realize that. That is one of my life goals, and I hope other atheists would be willing to join in.

This entire forum helped changed my life for the better when I first encountered it a couple decades ago. Becoming aware of the existence of the need to have a sound worldview (in contrast to religion) was an eye-opener for me. Now, it seems this place has devolved into more of a casual hangout to talk about entertainment or hobbies, alongside whining about politics for the purpose of driving up our egos. There is less of a focus on anything about enhancing the status of atheists in the world and criticizing religion. There used to be a subforum called "Positive Atheism and Secular Activism" and I never understood why that was scrapped. Atheists elsewhere around the internet have become more proactive, and now have other popular podcasts, Twitter and Facebook groups, websites, etc. Why does this forum even exist anymore? Why are we not contributing much to the promotion of secular activism? I really am not sure of the answer to that one.

Good post though. Thank you for writing that.

Well, I'm one of those atheists who totally disagree with the idea that all aspects of religion are bad, that it's going away or that we atheists should help move it along. In fact, I find it very offensive to assume that we atheists should try to get rid of religion.

I have many Christian friends who are good people. Some of them find hope in their church communities. Some others are inspired to do charitable work due to their religion. We atheists have totally failed at some of the things that religion does, so I find it offensive to make generalizations about all aspects of religion. Unless we can replace the things that religion offers people, we have nothing to brag about.

So, tell me this. I have a very sweet, loving dirt poor Black female friend who is also extremely religious. She and I have never discussed religion but I know, due to her language that she is very religious. I've never told her that I'm an atheist because it's irrelevant to our relationship. I have given her money once to help her buy gifts for her grandchild and I've been very supportive of her when she needs to vent about her health issues.

I have another Black Christian friend who knows I'm an atheist. She is middle class. Neither of us care what the other believes since neither of us have ever used our beliefs to harm anyone or try to force anyone to believe what we do. We have too many other things in common to let this one aspect of our lives interfere with our relationship.

I have a White friend who is a Christian but never talks about it. She knows I'm an atheist and she doesn't care. We have many other things in common, despite being 20 years apart in age. She doesn't like fundamentalism any more than I do.

So, please tell me what can we atheists offer a person like my very poor friend? Where is the community that will take in a poor woman who has never had an opportunity for higher education, who has likely suffered from some degree of racism, who can barely pay her bills, etc. What the fuck do we atheists have to offer her? I think that secular humanism tried to be a secular religion, but that didn't work out too well.

Not all religious beliefs has been harmful. I find that idea very narrow minded. Not all religious people deny science or attack others who don't think like they do. Not all religions are divisive.

I agree that the OP describes fundamentalist varieties of religion, but I don't see Unitarians or liberal varieties of religion as being anything like what was mentioned in the OP. I have had some strident atheist friends. I value their friendship. I just don't agree with them when it comes to how they perceive religion.

When you say that atheists need to take a more prominent role in making progress, I'm sure you mean well, but that almost sounds like the evangelical religion that I was taught as a child. To me, that's a bit disturbing. My goal in life has always been to care for others, while doing my best not to judge them. Attacking all religion or making generalizations about all aspects of religion isn't going to help. Just because you and I have realized that no gods exist, doesn't mean that we are superior to others, or that we have all the answers to life.

But, I would be happy to agree that fundamentalist varieties of religion suck.

Is Catholicism fundamentalist?
My parents were fundamantalist Christians and good people, and very left-wing economically.
Three problems with religion:
it is out of touch with reality and with rational thought.
When it is allied with political power it often becomes deadly--and religions that thrive tend to be those allied with political power.
The type of religion that is particularly dangerous is that that believes it has monopoly on truth, including moral truth, and knows the only way to eternal happiness for individual people. This danger is amplified when the religion is one that stresses converting others--e. g. Christianity and Islam. People who won't convert, who backslide, and especially those who try to convince others to deconvert are thus particularly dangerous to everyone's eternal happiness and need to be severely controlled, even exterminated.

Sometimes Catholicism is very conservative, and sometimes it's liberal. The current pope is fairly liberal. Although I was raised by fundamentalists Baptists, most of my childhood friends were Catholics. Their parents disregarded most of the craziest teachings of the church. They used birth control and they didn't judge non Catholics. My parents were fairly liberal when it came to politics, but their beliefs were so crazy that by the time I was 18, I could no longer believe what they did. My mother knew I'm an atheist but we never let our different beliefs harm our lifelong friendship. We had a lot in common, other than our beliefs concerning the supernatural. In fact, late in life, my mother told my husband that she no longer believed that a person like me was going to hell, so even a fundamentalist is capable of disagreeing with some aspects of what they've been told to believe.

Speaking of Catholics, there are Catholics who considered themselves to be charismatic. Yes! They are fundamentalists. I think the new member of SCOTUS falls in that category, based on what I've read about the sect of Catholicism that she embraces. So, sure that's potentially dangerous. All branches of religion tend to have some extremists, but the same could be said about many secular philosophies as well.


I've already stated that extreme or fundamentalist versions of religion are potentially dangerous. I just don't see that to be true of liberal religious beliefs. I've never heard of a liberal Christian using their beliefs to obtain political power or to try to change the law to support their religion. Any extreme ideology, secular or religious has the potential to be dangerous and harmful. I don't expect atheists to all agree with me. That's fine. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, and I have no problem with respectfully agreeing to disagree with others.

 

[Atheos]

While I personally would prefer if everyone in the world was smart enough to see eye to eye with me about everything I recognize that it would be quite boring without all those people out there needing my help to straighten them out. Just in case it's not obvious that was said very much tongue in cheek.

Which brings me to my thinking about what Brian63 said earlier. He said (among other things),

Even among atheists (some on this forum, who I shall not name), many still dogmatically and repeatedly hold to the mantra of "As long as they do not impose it on me, then I do not care what they believe." That line is clearly horseshit. Religion cannot restrain itself. It survives only by imposing itself onto others via numerous methods and extents. Even if it is not done through direct legislation, it still affects the psychology, morals, and rationality of people. So it affects us still.

I'm going to have to put myself in the group who doesn't care what others believe so long as they don't impose it on anyone else. Perhaps the world would be a better place if nobody practiced any religion of any fashion, but since we've never had the opportunity to find this out it's still something that remains untested. Would the world be a better place without the art, architecture and music inspired by religion? What of the many benevolence programs that have brought food, medicine and other necessities to starving people all over the world? Would the non-stamp-collecting cat herd that is atheism step up?

I still think religion is something of a zero sum game but again that's because of fundamentalism, not religion as a whole. The crusades, the Inquisitions, Islamic (and Christian) terrorism, human sacrifice, jihad, holy wars, blue laws and broken families/relationships are borne of religious intolerance directly related to fundamentalism.

There's little reason to believe the human race is capable of evolving mentally into a species that is not mostly addicted to religion. Evolution seems to have handed us a hodgepodge of brain layers that include a lot of lizard-brain activity that will not be denied. It's the hand we were dealt and we're learning through scientific disciplines methods to deal with it. But it's still there and I seriously doubt it's ever going to be gone completely. There will always be that void in our thought processes that can only be filled with superstition, and there will always be those few charismatic Jim Jones's and David Koresh's who will exploit it. Education can and does help but it can only do so much.

 

[Lion IRC]

Religion sucks. Seriously. It really is a horrible institution that is guilty of many crimes throughout history.

The benefits of religion far outweigh the (undisputed) atrocities committed in the name OF religion. Seriously!

...If it were only history I wouldn’t care so much, but it’s reign of terror in our country continues unabated and it is getting worse.

In the USA? Reign of 'terror'???
I get it that youre running a polemic but a reign of terror?

...Religion is a big driver of division and discord in our country.

I thought religion was on the decline? Yes, things in the secular, increasingly irreligious West seem to be getting worse (social pathologies like drug abuse, domestic violence, racial division, suicide, selfishness, etc.) but are you sure religion is the correlation/cause?

... It is fundamentally racist.

The Hindu caste system? A big problem in the US?

... Without religion Donald Trump would never have even come close to being nominated, much less elected.

Communist States understood the problem with religion. And their solution was/is compulsory atheism.

... We’d have real debates on the efficacy of conservative and liberal policies.

'real' debates. LOL
No True Scotsman fallacy much?
Democracy gave you Donald Trump - not religion.

...Religion however demands that all adhere to its stupid dogma.

Nope. Adherence is voluntary. Notwithstanding your disbelief, many ppl actually do agree with the doctrines and dogmas they adhere to.

... It’s irrationality that’s raised to the untouchable level.

LOL.
Who did that? And how did they manage to do so? The age of reason never started because, for homo sapiens, it has always been the age of reason.

... It’s unquestionable, yet so blatantly obviously bullshit.

Not so obvious to me and several hundreds of billions of your fellow primates who have existed throughout the history of human reasoning and sensory experience. Do you know something we dont? Evidence for atheism?

... You’re not allowed to call it out in polite society, but proselytizing on street corners is fine.

Do you routinely see crowds gathering to hear street corner preaching? The way you 'call out' religion is by not going to church. The way you call out religion is by voting for atheists. The way you call out religion is by a handy little device called free speech.

... If you dare to oppose it openly you’re branded as unpatriotic, and accused of trying to outlaw religious freedom.

I'm interested in this preachy New Atheism which wants to openly oppose religion. I always thought atheists were 'non stamp collectors' who merely lacked belief. If you want to join Ray Comfort on the street corner and preach atheism - go for it. He would LOVE to hear your views and learn what you have to offer.

... Religion wants you to believe that a 2000 year old middle eastern zombie is the savior of all humanity and must be worshipped above all things. This despite his absence for 1988 years (+/-). Give me a fucking break.

Your disinterest in salvation and ingratitude to an all powerful, loving Creator is entirely optional.

...Religion teaches us to hate gays, and really anyone who disagrees with us.

I dont hate gays.
I dont hate smokers either.

... It tries to repress the most basic rights of women and effectively return them to the status of chattel to their menfolk.

Are you aware that women adhere to religion in much larger numbers than men.
Why is that? Aren't they smart enough to know that they are being oppressed by the patriarchy?
It's hugely insulting to women to accuse them of not being able to freely decide for themselves that God exists.

... It is also sexually repressive to men as well, forcing normal men to lurk around for sexual outlets that they desire and it comes out in unnatural ways such as with vulnerable children.

I could bury you under a mountain of bible verses which condemn sexual immorality. But if you want to talk about pedophiles masquerading as priests I think you'll find its the absence of religion which enables all manner of unnatural sex. (Disclaimer* I dont claim absolute certainty in the area of where the line is drawn between natural and unnatural sex. SSM advocates tell me homosexuality is 'natural' in the animal kingdom. But then again, so is rape.)

...Religion is against basic scientific principles. Science and logic and reason are the opposite of religion.

Nope. Science and logic are predicated and enabled by the apparent fact that we live in an ordered, designed state of reality the architecture of which is governed by coherent laws. Religion is the product OF logic and reason deployed by humans in their search for answers to existential questions.

... Religion cannot abide such competition.

Rubbish.
Religion faces NO SUCH COMPETITION.

...Thus it seeks to repress scientific education in the country.

Last time I checked science is helping not hindering (my) religion. Who would have ever guessed that science would give us hope that parallel dimensions of space time exist. Has quantum physics given us greater certainty about the nature of reality or LESS?

... You may not be able to teach creationism in schools, but just try teaching evolution and see what happens.

Evolution class only runs for about 15 minutes.
Lesson 1 - Unpredictable, uncaused stuff happens spontaneously. (abiogenesis, random mutations, blah blah blah.)
Lesson 2 - Natural selection. WOW! Amazing. Survival of the luckiest.
YAY - I just got my degree in Evolution^TM

... Same is true for climate change. We have failed generations of school children as a result. Trump is a symptom.

Climate change gave us Donald Trump?

...It is a death cult focused on some imaginary afterlife at the expense of building a peaceful and just society.

Existential angst has existed for as long as humans have understood that we are not in control of where we came from nor where we end up. Dont blame religion for human mortality. Atheism is as much a response to existential angst as theism.

... After all what’s 80 years or so of suffering compared to an eternity of bliss?

What a great question.

... Thus many religions shun medical practice for prayer.

Jesus' medical skills were amazing.

... What bullshit. For millennia people prayed for cures, but only science delivered them.

People DO pray for their surgery to go well.
But as CS Lewis said, most of the worlds religions came into existence and have been in existence for millennia long before the discovery of chloroform. (And penicillin likewise, was DISCOVERED by science - not invented by science.)

... Religion must be logically rejected.

No. Atheism must be logically rejected.

...Religion seeks absolute political power, and it has virtually achieved it, despite growing numbers of nones.

This is self-contradictory.

... The Family provides housing for our representatives and senators and no one questions it. Preachers preach politics nowadays from the pulpit and the IRS says not a word. They pay no taxes...

Taxing the church is false economy. Taxation would simply discourage people from putting money in the collection bowl.
Just you sit and watch those soup kitchens and homeless shelters start closing when the money runs out and then the State rather than the Church would have to pay for all those HIV AIDS charities that the Catholic Church now operates. And all those church funded schools would close and the fee-paying parents of those kids would start sending their children to taxpayer funded schools.

...and if anyone dares to question their status, well oh my, they’re against religious freedom.

Youre free to criticize publicly religion. But maybe youre just too gutless.
I guarantee you, religious people know a LOT more about suffering persecution for their beliefs than atheists.

...It’s now likely to impose its views via the Supreme Court now dominated by religious conservatives.

Nope. SCOTUS judges are wise, trustworthy and impartial.
They would never let their personal views interfere with their legal obligations.
Right?

...It is no accident that the KKK is a Christian organization.

Yeah, you see KKK uniforms all the time. They are so emboldened these days
...because their widely accepted religion is so ubiquitous.

... Heck, the Bible justifies slavery. Obey your masters! That is the mandate of religion.

"But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves." Luke 22:26

He sat down, called the twelve disciples over to him, and said, “Whoever wants to be first must take last place and be the servant of everyone else.” Mark 9:35

"The greatest among you must be a servant" Matthew 23:11

... That’s why kings and despots have used it for centuries to control their populations. It is a war loving institution. They all claim to be religions of peace, but only to those who bend to their particular brand.

Using God/religion to justify your own selfish objectives or politics is common

... All others must be put to the sword.

Jesus said those who live by the sword reap what they sow.

...Look at 9/11...

Yeah...?
A success or failure?

...or even the first and second world wars.

How can two Christian countries fighting each other be a 'religious' war?
Forget about teaching evolution in schools - stick to history. Or economics.
It's like you've never heard of The Treaty of Versailles.

... Not to mention the crusades. Really every war.

...and climate change, and the hole in the ozone layer, and graffiti, and my local pizza shop forgetting to put anchovies on my capricciosa.

...Yes religion sucks. I say fuck it.

And saying so here at an atheist internet forum.
BTW whatever happened to phands?

...I’m sick of these religious fucktards like Amy Barrett and their condescending shit. Religion should die. The sooner the better.

The three types of jihad (struggles). These are: the jihad against yourself, the jihad against evil/sin and the jihad against an open enemy.

... I just wish I could hurry it along.

Try to stay off the FBI watch list.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Religion invested with political power is toxic and homicidal. The holy books prescribe execution for all manner of offenses -- prominently in the Bible and Quran, for heresy -- so, in the West, we're lucky to see this phenomenon in the rear-view mirror. (Our brand new SCOTUS -- now with the power of extra Catholicism, may prove me wrong.)

 

[Brian63]

Well, I'm one of those atheists who totally disagree with the idea that all aspects of religion are bad,…

I do not think that is the case either. Instead, my actual view is that religion on the whole is harmful, even if there are occasional benefits.

I have many Christian friends who are good people.

That is not relevant to the discussion though. Can they be good people, even if they were not religious? If 2 people each performed some act of kindness or charity, and one did it for religious and authoritarian motivations and the other did it for humanistic motivations---which would you prefer? Would you prefer it if people were friendly just because they coincidentally happened to be members of a groupthink cult that promoted kindness in certain circumstances? Or would you prefer if people were kind because they learned for themselves that that is the kind of world that is of more benefit overall?

Some of them find hope in their church communities. Some others are inspired to do charitable work due to their religion.

They can also do all of that without the superstitious, illogical, nonsensical, irresponsible religious baggage that they are toting in their worldview. Find hope and do charitable work for good reasons, not bad reasons.

So, please tell me what can we atheists offer a person like my very poor friend?

Truth. Humanists can also support her with material goods and services. No false beliefs in any invisible sky wizards is necessary to satisfy any of that.

Not all religious beliefs has been harmful. I find that idea very narrow minded. Not all religious people deny science or attack others who don't think like they do. Not all religions are divisive.

I do not think those apply, those are strawmen. But even the more peaceful religions do some harm by enabling the more fundamentalist versions of it. Note that the people themselves may have very kind motives and be completely oblivious to the harm they are doing. Even fundamentalists think they are helping the world. They are rather ignorant of the damage they are doing though. Whenever anyone says that religion harms the world, it needs to be not misinterpreted. The person may not be saying that all people are intentionally and knowingly harming the world. Rather, they are unintentionally and unknowingly doing so. That is definitely my own view on the matter.

Do you think that humankind in general should have a propensity to hold as many true beliefs as possible, and discard as many false beliefs as possible?

When you say that atheists need to take a more prominent role in making progress, I'm sure you mean well, but that almost sounds like the evangelical religion that I was taught as a child. To me, that's a bit disturbing.

Why?

Religion also has the power to harm a religious believer themselves, without even them being aware of it. If we care to help such people, we should aim to help prevent the source of the harm that is being done to them---the religious trauma itself. I have come across countless deconverts who described religious trauma that they endured during their time as self-professed Christians (especially while children). Any kind of blissful feeling they felt was rather superficial and hollow. When they deconverted, their mind became liberated and life became more meaningful. The whole time, religion was repressing their ability to lead a happier life.

There are also many ways in which religious beliefs harm non-members of the religion. Since we live in a world that is very interconnected, and the beliefs of people affect their actions, and their actions have consequences for us all---the religious beliefs of us all have consequences for us all.

My goal in life has always been to care for others, while doing my best not to judge them.

What exactly does it mean to “not to judge them”? That you avoid forming an opinion on their beliefs? Their behaviors? I will not do that. Some beliefs and behaviors are better or worse than others, and I will not artificially treat them all as if they deserve equal merit.

Attacking all religion or making generalizations about all aspects of religion isn't going to help.

If they are accurate, yes they will.

Or even if they are not generalizations, making more pointed criticisms against particular negatives is still helpful.

Just because you and I have realized that no gods exist, doesn't mean that we are superior to others, or that we have all the answers to life.

That comment is completely irrelevant to the discussion. That is an exaggerated strawman, not resembling my real views in any way.

But, I would be happy to agree that fundamentalist varieties of religion suck.

You just made a generalization. So now it is okay to do that?

 

[Brian63]

I'm going to have to put myself in the group who doesn't care what others believe so long as they don't impose it on anyone else.

Such a world is impossible though, since we do not each live in a vacuum. As alluded to earlier:

Our beliefs affect our choices.
Our choices affect our actions.
Our actions have real world consequences (on ourselves, each other presently, and future generations of life).

It is in our best interest to try and live in a world where we rationally and responsibly think through our beliefs, and also that other people do so.

A few decades ago I was more of the mindset of “as long as they do not impose it on me, I do not care what they believe” regarding religion. Then as I was getting older it was becoming more apparent how religious beliefs of people do affect them in numerous ways---not just how they vote in occasional public elections. They also influenced the mental clarity and emotional fragility of people. A lot of people held private and closeted questions about their beliefs, but lived their life in fear of expressing them out loud. That disturbed me, and if I really cared about helping people I needed to help stop this destructive force that was weighing on them. Then the 9/11 attack occurred, and that completely forced me to abandon my delusion that there could be such a thing as a “private belief” in regards to religion. They will have public consequences---it will just vary in extent and method. That became even clearer in subsequent years when gay marriage became more of a social issue in American culture. Many people also live in denial of climate change and/or COVID threats because they think God has it all in control and we need not bother.

9/11 especially was a life-changer though. In the weeks following, I made a vow to myself that I would not look at that event later in life as just something that happened and I remember "where I was" when it happened, but that it did not alter how I conducted my life. Instead, I would ensure that it would change me and how the rest of my life was lived. I owe it to the people who suffered and died on that day to help prevent future destruction at the hands of religion. My own religious childhood was very lenient and I have had relatively little religious problems as an adult. In contrast, many others have dealt with a lot more trauma, and I owe it to them and others later on to help alleviate any burdens they bear. That fuels my activism.



The more moderate and liberal versions of religions still work to enable the more fundamentalist and dangerous versions of them. We should not consider it acceptable to have a society that treats it as a virtue to hold beliefs despite there being no evidence for those beliefs, and especially when there is evidence against them. We should not grant the labels “Christian” or “faith” any superiority over secular views. When liberal Christians say things that are nonsensical, they should be challenged on it. If we have an environment where better thinking is not exercised and sloppy thinking is unchallenged, I think that is a recipe for a disaster. The damage may come later and be more subtle, but will still be present.

Perhaps the world would be a better place if nobody practiced any religion of any fashion, but since we've never had the opportunity to find this out it's still something that remains untested.

What about other irrational beliefs? On politics, science, ethics, philosophy, business, personal finance? In all of those arenas we seem to understand the importance of being rational over irrational, even though they have similarly not been “tested” the same way as the religious versus non-religious experiment. I just do not see why we should even think the results would be reversed on religion, from how it would be in every other category of our life.

 

[southernhybrid]

I"m not going to argue my points with you Brian. I've explained why I strongly disagree with the OP. We both have different opinions. You seem to find religion as inherently bad. I see it like I see all human inventions, a mix of both beneficial and potentially harmful things. It gives some people an opportunity for community and purpose. If that makes them. happy, who are we to destroy what gives them joy? I've personally known two atheist Christians. They apparently found something they liked in the Christian mythology, despite not taking it literally.

Maybe it would help if you read some of the late Joseph Campbell's books on mythology. He does a great job of explaining why myths are so important to humans. When I read "The Power of Myth" it was an eye opener for me. When anything is taken to an extreme, it becomes a problem.

And, I totally disagree that liberal versions of religion enable fundamentalism. That makes no sense to me. It's almost like saying that liberal political views enable conservative political views. If there was a UU fellowship near me, I'd be there with the liberal theists celebrating our common values because character and shared values are what is important to me. If some people need a little mythology in their lives, I have no problem with it, so we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[abaddon]

And, I totally disagree that liberal versions of religion enable fundamentalism. That makes no sense to me.

Yeah I disagree as well.

I wonder at people who feel so righteous and correct that they think others are supposed to give up something deeply meaningful and helpful to them, just because it'd enable evangelical secularists in their project to "get rid of" all religion. As if all humanity has a duty to adopt their values.

My focus, when I criticize the ideas among theists, is taking ancient mythology much too literally. My critiques of that are not intended as a scattershot blast at the entirety of religion.

I think the notion of non-overlapping magisteria is correct. The idea does not apply when scientific claims for creationism or similar; the religious step over the line with this kind of literalism. But atheists tend to focus on "truth" and I take it that they mean science. That's important but it's not all of life. Most of what religious folk are after is living a good life, and this gets into values, and we leave scientific "truth" behind when entering here.

Can the best in religion be secularized? Yeah, I think so; that's been my interest for a long time. Should it be? No, we're into values territory here and it comes down to how people want to live their lives.

 

[Angry Floof]

At the risk of sounding pedantic I think the OP is largely about fundamentalist Christianity, not religion in general. Fundamentalism sucks, that's for sure, whether Christian, Islamic or Incan. Once you get to the point where the life and liberty of others is less important than your religious dogma you've crossed the suckage line.

Even the more liberal strains of Christianity contain the seeds of authoritarianism. If you're a Christian and you're not a rabid zealot, then congratulations, your ordinary humanness is morally and intellectually superior to the ideology you claim OR you just haven't experienced the conditions, mental and environmental, that would push you toward extremism because of those seeds in place and lack of critical thinking skills (that religion by and large tends to reject and often even forbid as sinful).

Of course, that's the hypothetical "you." I'm pretty sure that you, Atheos, are not religious.

 

[Elixir]

The benefits of religion far outweigh the (undisputed) atrocities committed in the name OF religion. Seriously!

Ah yes - bring on the atrocities - benefits are sure to follow!
That fairly sums up the rest of your screed.

 

[Angry Floof]

In response to some comments I hadn't read when I posted my previous comment, let's talk about those seeds that do indeed exist within liberal strains of Christianity.

1. Authority worship. There is only one God and it's a basic commandment to believe this. Punishments for not believing vary among different denominations and communities, but there is no sect or denomination that doesn't punish non-belief on some level, from "polite" ostracization to excommunication to the atrocities of fundamentalist extremists.

2. Us vs. them framework. You are saved or not. You are a Christian or not. If you have to "love the sinner, not the sin," then you are rationalizing that fundamental dichotomy. Another form of "pity" as a way of condemning others while pretending compassion for them. Even if you truly have some level of genuine care for your non-believing fellow human beings, the belief that your religion is the epitome of morality, you will not be able to continue to be a believing Christian and truly consider them to be "your tribe."

3. Doubt is a sin. Questioning God or the human authority figures or the authorized religious texts is, at best, strongly frowned upon. (Seriously, try this out. Ask some hard questions of "liberal" Christians and see just how quickly that claim to be open to questioning turns to anger and defensiveness.) The very things that might have the power to mitigate authoritarianism and extremism, critical thinking and willingness to question anything, including authority figures and texts, are specifically not allowed. Even the most supposedly open minded Christian communities have very short limits on actual questioning.

4. The group identity. The religious identity is more valuable than the human identity. The most basic group identity a human being can hold is simply being human. Understanding this helps to see the world as "we are all in this together" and not really separate. But, again, just point out to a Christian that the label "Christian" is only a human construct and couldn't possibly equate to God hisownself, and they will likely agree it's just a label and not god. Then ask them if they are willing to drop the label or even condemn the label in order to take power away from ordinary human tribalistic behavior that Christianity has consistently brought to the world throughout its history, which surely is not God the Almighty but human fallibility, and they will not be able to separate the tribal label from their self righteous belief in a supposedly morally superior God.

I could go on if anyone is interested, but I think just these basics make it clear that in order for Christianity to become something that actually reinforces and inspires human goodness and not reinforce our stupidest and meanest animal brain behaviors, you'd have to reform it into something that no longer resembles Christianity, and Christianity is an ideological virus that is well equipped to stick around.

At best, the most liberal strains of Christianity are merely latent or dormant until the all too common conditions arise for it to blossom into its fullest destructive, inhumane nature.

Religion itself is a human artifact. It is neither God nor a human being, and thus needs no protection or defense and has no rights. There is no reason not to honestly and rigorously question any aspect of it. Your humanness is much more real and valuable than a stupid religious identity.