Men wearing dresses

[southernhybrid]

Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/style/gender-the-boys-in-their-summer-dresses.html

“We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.

The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.

 

[Angry Floof]

FYI, "they" is a perfectly acceptable (in the U.S., for decades at least) form of pronoun to use for whenever he/she becomes problematic due to a) not knowing the sex/gender, b) speaking in hypotheticals, or c) the individual in question does not fall into the narrow and inaccurate though socially acceptable, traditional binary of male/female, and a lot more people fall outside of that narrow binary than you might think, and that's just speaking biologically. We are highly complex, self aware beings who are not just the sum of our biological parts, so there's tons to learn there, too. Just sayin'.

But I digress. Contemporary acceptance of "they" as a pronoun began with writing even before current events begain raising awareness regarding inclusiveness, in the world as well as in writing. In casual and business writing, "they" is perfectly acceptable and not a grammatical error, and serves to alleviate awkward language of "he/she" and "himself/herself" or when the person is hypothetical or their sex/gender is unknown. I don't know how or if academic or legal standards have adopted this usage of "they," but I'm guessing probably not because those areas of writing standards change at a slower pace than the more dynamic business or casual writing.

In business, a company or client might have their own style guide that includes a writing preference for dealing with cumbersome "he or she" "himself or herself" language when talking about hypotheticals or when the sex/gender is not known, but the option to choose "they" is, again, perfectly acceptable and not a grammatical error should they choose it.

Also, seeing that usage drives grammar and not the other way around (although grammar as we learned it does influence how we use language, but that's a whole nother topic, which I can talk all day about if anyone is interested lol), when more and more people, particularly in writing that is accessible to anyone who might be doing research or is curious about how often "they" is used in reference to an individual, the more "they" becomes part of our official and unofficial lexicons.

Whatever your opinion about any issues related to other people's sex or gender or identity or transitioning or how they look or act or what they say about themselves (and I am not offering any opinion here on any of those issues except the use of "they"), you can breathe a sigh of relief that there is at least this one issue that you can set aside and have no rational need to fight about (unless you're elucidating the neutral facts of language usage).

From one of the most used and respected style guides: https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they

That said, I admit that I often use the default "she" when I don't know the correct pronouns, but this is simply because I like when people say, "Oh, it's he," such as with a cat pic on the internet, and then I say, "Oh, sorry. Okay. I just use the default female when I don't know."

It's not done to exclude, but just because it's fucking refreshing in a world dominated by some stupid idea that "he" is a default anything, especially given that we all start out proto-female and only switch to what we call male reproductive parts some time after conception. And sometimes doing this actually makes someone think differently about it or maybe just lures out of the woodwork all the reflexively defensive of stupid things they've never actually thought about much less rationally deliberated with their frontal lobes in charge.

Edit: I just learned that the singular "they" is actually centuries older than the plural. Somewhere in the middle somebody decided "We're gonna do it this way," and for a couple hundred more years, everyone said, "Yes, yes, good. We will smack down anyone who tries something different."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

 

[Angry Floof]

As for men wearing dresses, if a lot of men start wearing dresses, then dresses become "men's fashion." Acceptance of new fashion trends depends a lot on the status of the wearers of the new look.

But just in case anyone didn't get the memo, all clothes are men's fashion and all clothes are also women's fashion, regardless of how deeply ingrained the traditional binary ideas about clothes are in our minds.

Men's fashions, as all fashion, has changed and morphed and men of high social status especially have worn stuff we today would consider ridiculous for a man to be seen in, like those long pointy shoes that they are all trying to out-long and out-pointy each other to the point where they had to tie the ends of their shoes on a string tied to their waists just to be able to walk.

Our mailman wears shorts and a ponytail. I'm sure there are quite a few users here old enough to remember when such a sight would be unheard of, and just the long hair alone would have had the conservatives of our youth raging in animal brain fear aggression.

Anyway, yeah, change is pretty much the answer to everything everywhere, with fashion trends as well as social norms and attitudes. Hopefully also in how we regard our fellow human beings in this highly connected, noisy, clashing world.

Edit:

 

[southernhybrid]

Sorry to disagree with the they thing. I think that those who are non binary should come up with a new pronoun, not she or he. They just doesn't work and I think it might cause more problems for these folks. I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual. I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities. It's not helpful for promoting one's position.

Yeah. I get it. Men have always worn skirts or kilts to some degree. I'm talking about clothing that looks very feminine and I admit I'm biased because I hate dresses and skirts. Still, wear whatever makes you happy. That doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to understand the attraction to such clothing like the ones in the linked article. As I said, people in my town wear all kinds of clothing that adds to my amusement. I never criticize what anyone wears, but sometimes it does make me wonder what the appeal was when someone is wearing bedroom slippers, leopard print yoga pants and a striped shirt, for example. I'm also wondering what the appeal is of wearing a dress on a very masculine figure. Not knocking it. Just wondering why one finds it so appealing.

I hope if anyone else joins this discussion that it can be done without getting hateful. It's okay to disagree with each other, but for some reason, people seem to attack each other a lot these days just for having different views and opinions. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

I will probably add some more later when I have time. But here's a question. Do you personally know anyone who describes themselves as non binary? If so, have you ever asked what made the person come to the conclusion that they were a mix of genders. Don't we all have traits that traditionally have been associated with either male or female? Does that mean that we are all non binary to a certain extent? Will gender fluidity be the thing in the future?

I read a non binary article that claimed that Joan of Arc was non binary. No. We can't go back in time and put labels on people without substantial evidence.

 

[bigfield]

So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public?

No.

1. It would look objectively hideous.
2. It would clash with my "working class nerd" aesthetic.

 

[Toni]

In some cultures, men wear dresses, although they are not called that. In western culture, it's really not been a thing for centuries. I have no personal objection but I admit that it does take some getting used to simply because it's unfamiliar.

I really should make an effort to watch some of RuPaul's Drag Race. Drag has always made me somewhat uncomfortable because in my mind (which may be completely off target), those who dress in the exaggerated drag are purportedly expressing femininity in ways that I do not associate with anything feminine. I simply don't. I may very well be misunderstanding the point of drag.

I've never been attracted to or aspired to lots of make up or elaborate hairstyle or constricting dresses, high heels, etc. I've always been a jeans and t-shirt kind of person but one who, in my old age, does understand the purpose and utility of dressing for the occasion, even if it involves skirts or dresses. Part of my shift in POV is that changing mores and fashion no longer make things like panty hose or heaven forbid, girdles and restrictive foundation garments de rigor. It' much easier now to dress simply, appropriately and even elegantly in a simply dress or skirt with jacket, and a pair of....low heels for us short people. It's also much, much, much more comfortable and less complicated and so, to me, more acceptable. It's not my every day dress but I can do it without objection or complaint where the occasion calls for it.

Until recently, I vastly did NOT prefer to EVER wear a dress. In fact, I refused to go to first grade upon learning I was expected to wear a dress. My refusal did not stand and indeed, I wore dresses and skirts to school until TPTB decreed that girls could wear slacks but not jeans to school, which was universally ignored in favor of jeans, which were ubiquitous in the day amongst younger people. Nowadays, I honestly don't mind dressing up a bit for the occasional wedding or other event and often wear a dress on those fairly rare occasions. Otherwise, frankly, a casual t-shirt dress is less hot than pants and a top and sometimes, on very hot days, I prefer those t-shirt dresses simply because they are cooler than pants and a top.

One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?

I've never been in favor of rigid gender roles. Many of my natural interests have long been considered to be masculine and frankly, confused and upset my mother. I'm pretty sure my father would have been upset to see my sons play with stuffed animals and to occasionally wear my shoes (much smaller and easier for little children to wear than their father's larger shoes) or jewelry. As it happened, we always lived far enough away that visits involved people and not toys and the boys were always delighted with any typical masculine toy Grandpa offered, generally along the lines of trucks and building sets. (Also encouraged by myself and my husband just as my daughter was likewise encouraged to play with building sets and trucks and sports things). I chose to marry someone who naturally is more interested in spending time with babies and young children and in cooking than the average man of previous generations and even our generation. Today's young fathers more closely resemble how my husband behaved/behaves, taking on meal planning, cooking, grocery shopping, child care, laundry etc. along with the mothers.

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree with most of what you posted, Toni. When you mentioned children playing with different gender related toys, it reminded me of something I did while raising my son. I didn't want him to feel restricted to toys related to boys, so I bought him a doll when he was about two. He took off the doll's clothing and tossed it around the house as if it was a ball. The reason I did that was partly due to the culture of the 70s and partly because my father never wanted me to play with cars, trains etc. so I wanted to give my son the chance to explore things that weren't usually associated with little boys.

As a child, I did also enjoy playing with all of the typical things that are associated with little girls, dolls, cookware, toy tables, chairs, etc. Were we being programmed to become stereotypical adult females? I don't know, but since my husband took up cooking as a hobby, I've been relieved of the cooking task for years.

I chose a female dominated career, but as I said earlier, I was told that being assertive was something associated with men. I thought that was bullshit. I was never afraid to question male doctors, to advocate for my patients and even sometimes fight to get them what I thought they needed. Sometimes that made doctors angry at me. I once hung up on a doctor who was being a real asshole on the phone, right in front of one of my patients. Later that week, I got a standing ovation from some nurses at the local hospital when I went to drop off some charts. That's how rare it was back then for female nurses to be assertive, I guess. I think that's changed by now.

I guess men wearing fancy dresses has made me think of all kinds of gender stereotypes, while still exploring what it means to by non binary. I've tried to find evidence that it's something other than a cultural thing without any success. Gender is certainly changing. Maybe the day will come when nobody is associated with either gender. I doubt I'll be alive by then.

One thing I found humorous in the linked article is that some of the men said they wanted to be free of having to wear a zipper and having their legs covered. OMG! I was forced to wear dresses or skirts all through high school. It wasn't until around 1969 that the girls were permitted to wear slacks to school. To me, it was freedom no longer having to wear a dress, so I thought it was funny that some men associated dresses with freedom.

I understand drag queens. That's more of an entertainment thing. The men in the article aren't drag queens. They are just men who like to wear dresses, even if they have beards and very masculine shapes. As AF mentioned, things do change. And, sometimes it's hard to understand why things are changing. Most powerful women wear pants suits, while some men feel free when they wear dresses.

If I must dress up, it's black slacks, a slightly dressy top and some beautiful jewelry. Jewelry is my weakness, partly for sentimental reasons and partly because I love bright sparkly things.

 

[Shadowy Man]

One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?

Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Otherwise, frankly, a casual t-shirt dress is less hot than pants and a top and sometimes, on very hot days, I prefer those t-shirt dresses simply because they are cooler than pants and a top.

There have been times I've wished a dress was socially acceptable for men for this reason. While I haven't actually tried it I would think a short dress would be the ideal hot-weather garment. Clothes are a substantial impediment to the body's cooling system.

 

[Angry Floof]

Sorry to disagree with the they thing.

Why be sorry? Your opinions don't affect my feelings. If you disagree, you disagree.

I think that those who are non binary should come up with a new pronoun, not she or he.

I'm not being hateful when I say this, but why are you telling non-binary people what they should do on this issue?

They just doesn't work

For whom? (You mean you, I get it.)

and I think it might cause more problems for these folks.

Again not being hateful but truly astounded at this. What in the world makes you think you know more about their problems than they do?

I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts

Yes, yes, always a respectful line of reasoning to use on people you swear you don't disrespect.

And that is not hateful, but it is sarcastic, which is not at all the same thing.

to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual.

And you would be wrong about the usage of "they," both contemporary and in history.

I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities.

No, it isn't. What a ghastly thing to say. How often do you "think" people have multiple personalities when they're referred to as "they" when gender/sex is not known or in a hypothetical? Do you also suspect multiple personalities are involved then? But you'll pull that horrible accusation out with a straight face when you do know you're talking about an actual person??

It's not helpful for promoting one's position.

Not helpful to whom? (And you can say "their" position here. Don't worry, it's just a hypothetical person, not an objectionably real person whose personal information is not actually your business if they don't tell you. And you're not entitled to pull insulting and sophomoric "arguments" out at them even if they do!)

Yeah. I get it. Men have always worn skirts or kilts to some degree. I'm talking about clothing that looks very feminine and I admit I'm biased because I hate dresses and skirts. Still, wear whatever makes you happy. That doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to understand the attraction to such clothing like the ones in the linked article. As I said, people in my town wear all kinds of clothing that adds to my amusement.

I also am curious about such things.

I never criticize what anyone wears,

Just what they think they know about themselves, what they call themselves, what their potential problems are...

but sometimes it does make me wonder what the appeal was when someone is wearing bedroom slippers, leopard print yoga pants and a striped shirt, for example.

What would be the significance of those particular items? Are they unusual and/or indicative of some certain thing? I mean, I wear mis-matched loungewear and slippers all the time. What does that make you wonder about me? (I'm guessing it's probably something you already know. )

I'm also wondering what the appeal is of wearing a dress on a very masculine figure. Not knocking it. Just wondering why one finds it so appealing.

What an amazing coincidence that your curiosities match up so closely to your prejudices.

*snip the part that obviously doesn't apply to me or else it would have been addressed to Angry Floof and not anyone else.*

I will probably add some more later when I have time. But here's a question. Do you personally know anyone who describes themselves as non binary?

Yes!

If so, have you ever asked what made the person come to the conclusion that they were a mix of genders.

No! That's not my business and they haven't offered the information.

Don't we all have traits that traditionally have been associated with either male or female?

Depends on what you mean by "traditionally." I take it you probably mean Western society for the last maybe century. If not, then the answer is no.

Does that mean that we are all non binary to a certain extent?

No, but I'm just here to expound on the wonders of language usage and stuff, and not to the degree of non-binariness that "we all" might be. AND it's also not my business.

But I do know that there is a shit ton of information and theory and opinion and perspective on this topic available at your fingertips if you're really curious.

And I also have questions. 1) Are you really curious? 2) If not, is that last question an attempt at muddying rhetoric?

"And Ah ask you, laidehs and gennlemun of the jureh, if we ah awl non-bahnerreh, then hooWAH should we let anyone cawl themsailves non-bahnereh?" *gallery erupts* *because they think it's brilliant rhetoric* *it's not*

No need to answer those two questions. They actually are rhetorical.

Will gender fluidity be the thing in the future?

Not sure I fully understand the question, but I know that what we might use the term "gender fluid" for today has also been a thing in the past (human reproductive development didn't just start defying the status quo this decade, but as to the future, I don't know any more than you do, and I've never heard of any non-binary people having a particular gift for divination.

I read a non binary article

Nitpick here. People can be non-binary, not articles. But I knew what you meant. It just sounded funny, "a non binary article." hehe

claimed that Joan of Arc was non binary. No. We can't go back in time and put labels on people without substantial evidence.

We can and we do, obviously, though YMMV depending on the historian. If you mean you think we shouldn't, well that's fine. Make your case. Or not. It's all good. It's not a debate I'm interested in myself.

I hope it's ok that I addressed your actual comments and questions and didn't try to read into them any kind of subtext about anyone not wanting to be challenged through thoughtful commentary, because I'm sure that's not how it was intended. And I agree about thoughtful commentary, and in which sarcasm is not thoughtless nor is it hateful. I'm sorry if you disagree with that because given the sheer disrespect, and hatefulness, and not at all thoughtful commentary and questions about people you've never met that you have put forth, not to mention baldly dubious claims about your own intentions, I can honestly say I'm being very, very careful with your feelings! Those "arguments" and "questions" are only "arguments" and "questions" to people who never expect to ever care about a human being who might fall under the descriptions discussed here.

But there is no way in hell you will ever be so thoughtful or honest or not-hateful in your claims to want to know more or learn or understand others. If you can't be bothered to care about your fellow human beings' feelings (at the very least!), then why should anyone care about yours?

I think I understand now why you started your post with "Sorry."

 

[southernhybrid]

One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?

Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.

Did you see the rappers in my link? They looked pretty tough and I doubt they've been criticized for that, at least not by those who love pop culture.

I've been reading about gender fluidity all afternoon. Apparently, the cool younger generations get it, but most of us who are over 45 aren't used to seeing men in frilly dresses or people who identify as both genders or no gender. I read their stories. I'm just having a hard time with it. They call gender a social construct because some people have a different combination of sex chromosomes. Still, does every person who identifies as gender fluid/non binary have rare chromosome combinations? If not, is gender fluidity a social construct? Does it matter if we are all able to be tolerant toward's each other, regardless of our differences?

It's a positive if people stop stereotyping based on sex/gender characteristics.

 

[Shadowy Man]

One advantage that women have had over men is that it has become acceptable over the past 100 years or so for women to wear traditionally male clothing while the reverse has not been true. And why not? Why has it been more acceptable for women to embrace 'male' characteristics/behaviors than for men to embrace the feminine? And why are certain things considered 'masculine' but do not require male genitalia or male hormones and why are certain things considered 'feminine' but do not require female reproductive organs/genitalia/hormones? I don't get it. Boys may (or may not) like climbing trees and looking at insects and rocks more commonly than do girls but such activities are not inherently masculine. Nor is enjoying art or cuddling animals or dolls inherently female. Given the opportunity, many boy children will happily play with dolls and stuffed animals, care for them, create imaginative play where the toy plays the part of a character in the child's fantasy. We're comfortable enough with boys doing that with GI Joes and Star Wars figures so why not with teddy bears and baby dolls?

Because in our patriarchal societies masculine qualities are considered good and feminine ones bad. Why would a man want to adopt bad qualities? It is more respected that a woman might want to become better or stronger, but why would a man want to become worse or weaker? Women do still get criticized for adopting masculine characteristics, but certainly not as much as men get vilified for adopting feminine characteristics.

You see this in entertainment media, right? Women superheroes or adventurers are basically women doing what men do. Strength is kicking butt and being strong. How many female superheroes do you see using feminine qualities to save the day? It's very rare. The closest I've seen lately is in the movie Wonder Woman, where it was her compassion that led her to saving that village when all the men wanted to pass by without helping. But she still saved the village by being strong and defeated the villain in the end with punching and power.

Did you see the rappers in my link? They looked pretty tough and I doubt they've been criticized for that, at least not by those who love pop culture.

I've been reading about gender fluidity all afternoon. Apparently, the cool younger generations get it, but most of us who are over 45 aren't used to seeing men in frilly dresses or people who identify as both genders or no gender. I read their stories. I'm just having a hard time with it. They call gender a social construct because some people have a different combination of sex chromosomes. Still, does every person who identifies as gender fluid/non binary have rare chromosome combinations? If not, is gender fluidity a social construct? Does it matter if we are all able to be tolerant toward's each other, regardless of our differences?

It's a positive if people stop stereotyping based on sex/gender characteristics.

I do think that gender is mostly a social construct. It may be rooted in actual sex differences, but the way we create and perpetuate gender differences is through social and cultural actions. It likely changes over time and will continue to change.

 

[Treedbear]

Sorry to disagree with the they thing.

Why be sorry? Your opinions don't affect my feelings. If you disagree, you disagree.

I'm not being hateful when I say this, but why are you telling non-binary people what they should do on this issue?

They just doesn't work

For whom? (You mean you, I get it.)

and I think it might cause more problems for these folks.

Again not being hateful but truly astounded at this. What in the world makes you think you know more about their problems than they do?

I have no dislike of anyone, even if I question their claims but I think it's a bit nuts

Yes, yes, always a respectful line of reasoning to use on people you swear you don't disrespect.

And that is not hateful, but it is sarcastic, which is not at all the same thing.

to use a pronoun that is plural to describe someone who is a single individual.

And you would be wrong about the usage of "they," both contemporary and in history.

I have read that in some countries, new words have been used for non binary folks. When you tell me that you are a they, it's like saying you have multiple personalities.

No, it isn't. What a ghastly thing to say. How often do you "think" people have multiple personalities when they're referred to as "they" when gender/sex is not known or in a hypothetical? Do you also suspect multiple personalities are involved then? But you'll pull that horrible accusation out with a straight face when you do know you're talking about an actual person??

It's not helpful for promoting one's position.

Not helpful to whom? (And you can say "their" position here. Don't worry, it's just a hypothetical person, not an objectionably real person whose personal information is not actually your business if they don't tell you. And you're not entitled to pull insulting and sophomoric "arguments" out at them even if they do!)
...

I have no problem with the singular use of "they" when the context describes a situation when the gender is unknown. By default there is an uncertainty about the particulars of the person in question. Typically that means it might be a man or a women. So that means the context is some group that cannot be defined as him or her but includes both. The plural form is therefore appropriate and carries some meaning. But in the case where the context concerns one individual there is no rational basis to use the plural "they", or "their". So who it concerns is everyone who uses the English language and follows rules of proper diction. Using "they" to refer to an individual who neither identifies as male or female is dehumanizing simply because it doesn't acknowledge that person's individuality. I think you fail to recognize southernhybrid's genuine respect for non-binary individuals and the discomfort that results from addressing them in this way. I would think that it's a problem within the non-binary community as well. One I'd think they'd want to resolve. And then everyone could breath easier.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yes, it's cultural. Boys used to wear dresses up to a certain age. It's like men used to wear nightgowns, too. You must have seen this kind of thing in old movies and cartoons. Men having nightgowns might even still be a thing sort of on an individual basis or in certain cultures. It's like also pink and blue: pink for girls and blue for boys. This distinction was decided by a corporation one day, like Macy's or one of its competitors. All the other stores followed suit because it became a selling point.

Regarding the "they" issue...they has been used for a singular person where gender is unknown or simply for convenience in speaking and writing for some time. The usage is human whereas calling someone an "it" would be dehumanizing. The usage of "they" predates all the putting it out there of pronoun labels for persons in Internet profiles etc. One ought not make the mistake of thinking the usage came from this trend as it didn't. The trend is merely using a feature of English that was already evolving.

My two cents...

 

[DrZoidberg]

Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/style/gender-the-boys-in-their-summer-dresses.html

“We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.

The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.

Based on sociological and anthropological research how we code clothes seem pretty arbitrary. What's natural is to be naked. The moment we put on any clothes we're being, from an evolutionary perspective, weird.

Personally, I like strict norms. It makes it fun to break them.

Fun anecdote from the 90'ies of my youth. I was told by a gay friend that I wouldn't dare go out in drag. We went to a gay club. The only place with good music in the 90'ies. Yes, I hate rock music. Anyhoo... I took him up on his challenge. On the way home from the club a group of three gangster thugs came up to us and asked if we were "faggots". This was back in the day when gay bashing was a popular past time by normal people. Before I had a chance to answer my gay friend, (also in drag) told them "yes, we are, what are you going to do about it, losers". So they jumped us. But we whipped their asses good. It's a fond memory from my youth.

 

[southernhybrid]

Yes, it's cultural. Boys used to wear dresses up to a certain age. It's like men used to wear nightgowns, too. You must have seen this kind of thing in old movies and cartoons. Men having nightgowns might even still be a thing sort of on an individual basis or in certain cultures. It's like also pink and blue: pink for girls and blue for boys. This distinction was decided by a corporation one day, like Macy's or one of its competitors. All the other stores followed suit because it became a selling point.

Regarding the "they" issue...they has been used for a singular person where gender is unknown or simply for convenience in speaking and writing for some time. The usage is human whereas calling someone an "it" would be dehumanizing. The usage of "they" predates all the putting it out there of pronoun labels for persons in Internet profiles etc. One ought not make the mistake of thinking the usage came from this trend as it didn't. The trend is merely using a feature of English that was already evolving.

My two cents...

Oh please. I am certainly not suggesting that non binary folks use the word "it" to describe themselves. I just have a problem using a plural pronoun being used to describe a single person. I think I get what you're saying about the term they being used as a singular in some cases, although even that has always seemed a bit awkward to me, but I don't see how it applies in the case of non binary folks. For example, the other day, the NYTimes had a piece written by a non binary. The Times had to explain that the person preferred to be addressed as they. If the term made sense, the paper wouldn't have to explain that. If there was a new pronoun used for non binary folks, that would make more sense. But, seriously, I've already stated my opinion, I have no desire to argue about it endlessly. It's okay for people to disagree.

I did find it interesting that some in the trans community object to people who identify as non binary while others consider them a part of the trans community. If it's hard for a trans person to understand a non, I think it's understandable that a straight old woman might also have questions. It's a bit confusing. That's all I'm saying. Btw, the trans folks who were objecting to the nonbinary folks were claiming that they were infringing on the trans community and/or they were just trying to be cool or part of the newest in-group etc.

But, although it's my own fault for going off topic, I originally was just wondering why so many straight men were suddenly wanting to wear fancy, frilly dresses, not kilts or robes, but things that traditionally were associated with femininity. Obviously, how we dress is cultural and it's changed over time. So, maybe that's all there is to it.

That got me wondering if gender fluidity is a cultural thing that will become a lot more common in the future. There is a big difference between what is cultural and what is natural. I'm not against cultural identities. I'm just trying to figure things out. I'm not going to treat anyone with prejudice who has an identity that hasn't been common in Western culture. I'm just naturally curious and I'm not one to accept something just because someone tells me it's true.

So, does anyone have an opinion as to why so many men who identify as male are now interested in wearing very feminine dresses? Is this really about gender or is it an attempt to break down traditional gender rolls and assumptions? Then again, maybe it's just a passing fad. I just thought it was interesting and wanted other opinions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, does anyone have an opinion as to why so many men who identify as male are now interested in wearing very feminine dresses? Is this really about gender or is it an attempt to break down traditional gender rolls and assumptions? Then again, maybe it's just a passing fad. I just thought it was interesting and wanted other opinions.

As somebody who has an interest in fashion, here goes my interpretation.

It's because this was a thing in the 90'ies and now we have a 90'ies fashion retro movement. The 90'ies fashion was all about playing around with stereotypes, male, female, age, materials, and so on. 90'ies fashion was very playful and experimental. For example in the 90'ies Hugo Boss, the manliest brand in the world, made a pinstripe suit (for men) with a skirt instead of trousers.

I suspect that the 90'ies retro fits well into the woke gender queer movement of the 10's and act as a catalyst.

We're going to get a lot of guys in long beards in long dresses this summer.

Brace yourself!

Me personally... I love it.

 

[southernhybrid]

Now, I honestly don't care what anyone wears. In fact, it adds to my amusement to see people wearing all kinds of weird outfits, but this article that I'm going to link did make me wonder if identifying with a specific gender will eventually become a thing of the past. But, first, amuse yourself by looking at my link. As a NYTimes subscriber, I am permitted to share 10 articles each month. I think I still have a few left for this month.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/style/gender-the-boys-in-their-summer-dresses.html

“We’re rethinking all of that,” said Will Welch, the editor of GQ. “A guy in Allbirds and a hoodie might be a billionaire. So you can’t make assumptions anymore,” not least about the gender orientation of “those kids in Washington Square Park in dresses.”

For the 30-ish fashion stylist Mickey Freeman, who has eschewed trousers for some six years, a kilt is a tool for flouting societal constrictions on what constitutes Black male identity. “Most people have an internal directive of how clothes play into a man’s masculinity,” Mr. Freeman wrote in an email. Guys looking to loosen “the internal shackles” of gender presentation may benefit from giving a test run to wearing a garment created without two legs and a zipper.

The above is just one of many quotes explaining why men want to wear dresses or skirts. As for me, a person who identifies as a very feminine women, I despise dresses, and skirts and haven't worn either in over 20 years. I think they are ugly on adults. But, of course, we all have different tastes when it comes to how we dress. I love jewelry and will wear diamond bracelets with blue jeans. Some people might find that wrong, but as I said before, I don't give a fuck how anyone else dresses and I don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks about how I dress, wear my hair or how much my jewelry sparkles. But, I digress.

Are men just trying to be different? Is gender identity really becoming more fluid? Why is that? I was once accused of being too assertive to be happy as a nurse when I asked for advice from a career counselor. Seriously? She told me that was a male quality? Really? One can't be feminine and also be assertive? One can't be masculine and also be gentle and caring? That's nuts!

I'm really trying to understand this non binary thing, but I'm having trouble. Apparently some transgender folks despise it too, according to several articles I read earlier today. And, please, if you must be non binary, pick a pronoun other than they. They implies two people, not one person who identifies as two genders depending on the day. I've heard a neurologist say that there is evidence for transgender, but not for non binary.

Oh wait, I was talking about men wearing dresses, but it did make me think of how we define gender these days and if the two are related, or if some men just want to have fun wearing women's clothing or getting attention. Some of these men are very masculine in appearance. I know there have always been cross dressers. Okay. No problem, but this is a bit different than that.

Oh well. There are far more important things to discuss than how men are dressing these days, but I needed a break from that stuff.

So, if you are a man, would you feel comfortable wearing a dress in public? If you are a woman, do you like wearing dresses, or would you find them attractive on your male friend, or husband? Why do you think that gender identity is becoming more fluid, at least in some areas? Is it a fad, a trend or will it lead to permanent changes in society? Share you opinion. ( I'm not talking about trans women. I'm talking about people who identify as men who enjoy wearing dresses ) We can discuss gender fluidity or we can make that a different discussion. I see gender fluidity as a cultural thing, at least until I am convinced otherwise.

Based on sociological and anthropological research how we code clothes seem pretty arbitrary. What's natural is to be naked. The moment we put on any clothes we're being, from an evolutionary perspective, weird.

Personally, I like strict norms. It makes it fun to break them.

Fun anecdote from the 90'ies of my youth. I was told by a gay friend that I wouldn't dare go out in drag. We went to a gay club. The only place with good music in the 90'ies. Yes, I hate rock music. Anyhoo... I took him up on his challenge. On the way home from the club a group of three gangster thugs came up to us and asked if we were "faggots". This was back in the day when gay bashing was a popular past time by normal people. Before I had a chance to answer my gay friend, (also in drag) told them "yes, we are, what are you going to do about it, losers". So they jumped us. But we whipped their asses good. It's a fond memory from my youth.

I don't think wearing clothing is weird. We don't have protective fur, feathers etc. to protect our
very frail skin from the elements. So, to me, wearing clothing is perfectly normal. Plus, I am so cold natured that going without clothing would be torture. Fashion is weird and it does change over time. I just think that clothing and shoes are practical, plus I doubt that most women really want heterosexual men gawking at their genitals. I know I sure don't.

Plus, as an aside....When working as a home health nurse, I saw far too many naked, boobs, penises, vaginas, etc. I would prefer not to look at naked bodies. It's not a moral thing. I just don't think most naked bodies are pleasing to the eye, especially these days. Please cover up that stuff. .

It's also not healthy letting our skin be exposed to the sun. It puts one at risk for serious sunburn, and skin cancer, especially if one has fair skin, but even people with darker shades of skin are at a risk of these things, so there are plenty of reasons to wear clothing.

And in response to your other post.....

There may be lots of bearded men with dresses in your neck of the woods, but I promise you that won't happen in my very conservative American city. Not that I care. As I said in my initial post, what people wear often amuses me. A few weeks ago, I saw a very cute, young mixed race couple in the grocery store dressed exactly as if they had just stepped out of the 60s. Retro always makes me smile. I don't think we had the same fads in the 90s as you did. But then again, I think most of us tend to remember what was in style during our youthful years. I was a teenager in the mid to late 60s, when things were very different compared to the 90s.

Whatever floats your boat. I've never been a slave to fashion. I only wear skinny jeans and casual tops, a style I never tire of wearing because they are comfortable and I like the way they look. I wore jeans to work at my last nursing job for years. If a nurse wearing jeans to work is breaking social norms, then I'm guilty.

 

[Swammerdami]

I've had a silly-looking but semi-serious question for some time. This thread gives me an opportunity to ask it.

Why do men wear trousers, while women wear skirts? Wouldn't the reverse of this be more practical?

I'm thinking of the differing packaging needs. Trousers, especially if they're tight, flaunt a man's junk. And just as parting one's hair on the left or the right is a cosmetic decision, so men may need to decide which pant-leg to park their convex appendage in. (I've not had these problems since middle age.) Women, being more concave, do not have such issues.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think wearing clothing is weird. We don't have protective fur, feathers etc. to protect our
very frail skin from the elements. So, to me, wearing clothing is perfectly normal. Plus, I am so cold natured that going without clothing would be torture. Fashion is weird and it does change over time.

Evolution is a slow process. Apart from white people losing some of our skin pigment, not much have happened to our bodies since we left the Rift valley in modern Kenya. Hunter/gatherers from that area don't need clothes for protection. And that's what we've evolved for. Black people actually still excellently adapted for just that climate even if naked. And that's the climate our instincts have evolved for.

Also, it's a question of what you're used to. Humans are highly adaptable. Swedes spend a lot of time in the cold. We go skinny dipping in the winter and so on. WE get used to it. Once I went diving in Egypt in the winter (10 degrees Celsius). After hours of diving our bodies were severely chilled. When we got out of our wetsuits and were going to dry off, the Egyptians, Americans, French, Vietnamese and Korean in our group looked like they were dying from the cold. The Norwegians, Russians and me were all fine.

Genetically we're all the same. So it's not genetics. It's just a question of what you're used to.

I just think that clothing and shoes are practical

What's possibly more practical than being naked? It requires zero effort to get ready in the morning. After we've been swimming naked there's zero wet swimming clothes to bother with.

, plus I doubt that most women really want heterosexual men gawking at their genitals. I know I sure don't.
Plus, as an aside....When working as a home health nurse, I saw far too many naked, boobs, penises, vaginas, etc. I would prefer not to look at naked bodies. It's not a moral thing. I just don't think most naked bodies are pleasing to the eye, especially these days. Please cover up that stuff. .

I can assure you that this is a cultural artifact. It's a weird hang-up. I'm from Scandinavia. Northern Europeans (Germanic tribes and Viking regions) have cultures very relaxed about nudity. I regularly go skinny dipping in the Copenhagen harbour during the middle of the day. It's smack in the center of Copenhagen. Nobody cares. Nobody has a problem with it. Nobody is offended. Nobody stops to stare. And more importantly. I'm not alone. Lots of people do it.

You don't need to spend a lot of time naked together with your family and grand parents in a sauna to get relaxed about it. I'd argue that it's the healthy thing to do. Young people would have a hell of a lot less hang ups about their bodies if they were surrounded by normal people, letting it all hang out.

South Europeans and Americans are noticeably more neurotic about sex and intimacy than Northern Europeans.

I don't think this cultural obsession about covering up and hiding your eyes from public sexuality is healthy. It seems to make people really twisted and weird in the head. With all kinds of weird hang ups about sex and sexuality. It seems to make people fearful of both other people as well as their own bodies. From a Scandinavian perspective their behaviour around sex is very odd.

Me personally, I've stopped having sex with Americans and Italians. Too much weird hang ups and fucked up ideas about what sex is and should be. It too often feels like having sex with a child in an adults body. Even Arab women are more relaxed about their sexuality than Americans. Just my impression from decades of being a slut.

It's also not healthy letting our skin be exposed to the sun. It puts one at risk for serious sunburn, and skin cancer, especially if one has fair skin, but even people with darker shades of skin are at a risk of these things, so there are plenty of reasons to wear clothing.

Sure. But the face is no less at risk than the rest of the body, and no culture has issues about letting our faces be exposed to the sun. So it's clearly not that.

There may be lots of bearded men with dresses in your neck of the woods, but I promise you that won't happen in my very conservative American city.

Copenhagen is extremely liberal. Berlin, Amsterdam and Copenhagen is the three most liberal cities I've ever been to in the world. That's why I chose to move to Copenhagen.

Yeah, we have a lot of bearded men in dresses. It wouldn't get any reaction in these parts. I have a Danish friend here. And ex soldier. An absolutely massive guy. Well over two meters tall and a mountain of muscles. And a big beard. Always wears West African colourful kaftans. So a dress basically. Nobody has ever looked twice. Nobody cares over here.