True. People are becoming a lot more aware of things like systemic racism and the perspectives of marginalized people everywhere.
Clearly you don't know that "woke" is a term coined by Black Americans that refers to becoming aware of systemic racism and choosing not to continue to be part of that programming. Lately, though, it seems some white people have decided it means anyone who challenges their opinions about people not like them and things they themselves rarely or never experience.
will inspire some to make insinuations about them, insinuations which usually aren't true.
I find this deeply hypocritical.
Btw, I am very fond of AF, even when I disagree with her, so this isn't meant to be a personal attack. I'm not implying that she is a victim of woke culture.
Yes, you are insinuating that, but there is no such thing as "woke culture" except in the minds of insecure white people who are not used to having their deeply held (because society made them deeply held) assumptions.
I'm just think that woke culture has made it more difficult for people to discuss subjects like this.
Well, that's convenient.
An imaginary enemy is making it so difficult to blurt out opinions without challenge!
That is exactly why I started this thread. I wanted to see if we could discuss this, and sometimes disagree without making assumptions about each other and without attacking each other.
You hoped that couching your ignorant views in a disingenuous plea for politeness would protect you from exposure.
This is not personal. I understand why you hold such views. But the views you have expressed as well as the arguments you've put forth as justification for them are based in ignorance.
I also understand why calling out the ignorant nature of your views on non binary people and their having a preference for pronouns that challenges paradigms you've held since childhood would make you feel personally attacked. No one enjoys having their views described as based in ignorance, but if that's true, that's what you should hear.
But, A Floof has made many generalizations about me.
No, I have commented on views and attitudes and level of ignorance you have expressed.
Just because I spent several hours exploring this issue
Nothing you've said on this topic suggests you've "explored" anything.
so I could learn more about it
There are definitely more ways to learn about non binary perspectives and stories and history besides using grade school grammar lessons as an argument and making assertions without evidence that you do indeed respect non binary people. For one thing, you haven't shown that you know anything about them, and for another, you haven't shown for a second that you're willing to spend some time bringing non binary stories and voices and perspectives into your life. Cis het Southern white lady, there is no way you have very many, if any at all, personal relationships with non binary people. And even if you did, that wouldn't count as deep an understanding as people think, much like the "I have black friends" argument against having to think about black people or subconscious biases about black people.
doesn't mean that I was comforted because some in the transgendered community feel that non binary people are being insincere or trying to be cool.
By comforted I meant that you were glad to use it as part of your argument supporting your callous view of non binary people. Trans people's opinions about non binary folks are their opinions. They're not justification for you holding inhumane views regarding non binary people.
I just thought that was interesting that people in a similar in-group are having difficulty understanding non binaries. It gave me no comfort. It just made things a little bit more confusing.
No, it didn't. You brought in other people's opinions thinking their "similar in-group" gave credence to your opinions. They don't. They're irrelevant to whether you are humane enough in your regard for non binary people to let them tell you what their experience is rather than you telling them or dismissing them as liars or children or attention seekers.
No, it isn't even that interesting that "some trans people" have expressed such views about non binary people except to maybe other trans people or non binary people. That's irrelevant to the thoughts you've expressed here, and I'm skeptical of the implication that you only mentioned it as a side note. But ok, we'll say you only meant it as an interesting side note and not something that might in some way support your views of non binary people.
I don't automatically accept anything without doing a bit of research, and some critical thinking. I was a bit amused by the frequent assumptions that a person who might have a problem with the term "they" being used to describe a single person, has a "conservative mind", whatever that's supposed to mean.
Well, "conservative" means a world view and a mentality that does not like change or challenge to traditional roles and beliefs, and in this case, in Western culture, that means cis het Christian white people. Introducing a new word usage to conservatives based on a person's desire to not be referred to as only one of two options for sex/gender, why, there's really not a lot that could potentially perturb a conservative more than that! It's sacrilege, it's un-American, it's anti-Christian, it's an abomination, they're either lying or there's something "wrong" with them, we should not cater to such blasphemy...
By contrast, a world view and mentality that we would call "liberal" is one that is more open to change, open to differences, doesn't need others to conform to be accepted, willing to change, willing to help, inclusive, etc.
So, yeah, in a very real and relevant sense, the ideas and opinions you have expressed about non binary people as well as the preference for "they" in the singular as the pronouns that best reflect their lived experience have been reflective of conservative thinking as well as conservative views themselves.
I am amused, in fact, that you take exception to your views being characterized as conservative when that is exactly what they are.
I don't think we have liberal or conservative minds.
To a great extent we do (see above) and to a greater extent such traits are expressed in our political and social stances.
But, since I don't think we have free will, if someone does have a conservative mind, that's they really can't help it, can they?
( humor ) I try to be open minded when it comes to something that can't be demonstrated by scientific evidence and I like that evidence to be very obvious.
But not at all open hearted or cognizant of what needs to be proven by scientific evidence for you to be humane in your regard for non binary people. And no, you are not open minded at all. If you were, you'd go to the trouble of seeking out the voices and perspectives and stories of people who identify as non binary.
Even if were true that there is no scientific evidence to support someone's assertion that they are non binary, surely you're at least open to the possibility that they are not just attention seekers who will change their minds tomorrow or any of the two dimensional dismissive characterizations you've put forth or insinuated. Surely you'd be open to the possibility that they are fully complex humans and there is more to the story than those few headlines you've seen that support superficial two dimensional characterizations of non binary people, and be open to finding out.
They're not just going to show up on your doorstep ready to convince you of anything. You have to make the effort to find those stories if you really are the respectful person you claim to be and not for whatever reason just blabbing conservative attitudes and talking points.
And, even if I were to decide that the category non binary is just a made up cultural concept, I respect people who are different and I would defend their right to feel that way. I wasn't agreeing with those in the trans community who have been critical of them. I just found that interesting as well as confusing. There was no need to make the assumption that I was validated by them. I'm my own person, not easily swayed by others.
I'll go by the views you have actually expressed and your unwillingness to let go of them as much more telling than just you making assertions.
So far, there is no physiological evidence for a person having more than one gender or having no gender, at least not among humans. That is why at least for now, I tend to think it's a cultural thing. But if the evidence comes in to support that this type of gender identity is physiological, of course, I will accept that.
And you would have no idea where and how you might be wrong about that, and regardless, you would not find a way to get to know anything about non binary people beyond the superficial quips that conservatives think support their prejudices.
Yes, sometimes we use the plural when we are speaking of a person, but when we use that pronoun that way, it has nothing to do with being non binary.
But your knowing when it refers to a non binary person, as opposed to not simply not knowing sex/gender in the binary you expect, doesn't change anything. If someone says "they" in the singular in a way that makes you think the sex/gender is simply unknown but then you find out it refers to a person who is non binary, how do you then pretend you no longer understand it? Only some
additional information was given, information
added, and you are really going to claim that the additional information makes you not able to parse the language?
Are you really going to keep trying to make that claim?
In fact, when "they" is used that way, it's not always clear whether we are referring to one person or a group of people who are similar. So, when you say that "they" has always been used in a singular way, I don't think that's completely honest, as it's not being used to describe non binary individuals or even people suffering from multiple personality disorder for that matter. ( humor, ok )
You should try to be less passive aggressive in your digs. Have the courage of conviction to explain how someone is being completely dishonest in making a statement that you damn well know is true, and also how you think multiple personalities bear on this topic. But I think you're going to keep expecting us all to believe that your brain just forgets how to parse language because an unknown bit of information becomes known, and not the other way around.
And unless you know someone diagnosed with dissociative disorder who has asked that you refer to them as "they" in the singular, you're just being really insensitive under the pretense of a joke.
All I'm saying is when you insist on being referred to as "they", people are confused.
Who insisted? And no, it's not confusing. Literally millions of people do this without any trouble at all, and even more who do have trouble in the beginning because of habit don't have trouble trying in good faith until it becomes more habitual and natural for them. But no confusion.
All I'm saying is that other cultures have created new pronouns to describe a non binary person so why is that a problem?
It's not. We have created new words in the effort to recognize people outside of the cis het white Christian confines of reality, and also new forms of words, such as Mx. and xir and Latinx, which are also ridiculed and demonized and hailed as "unnecessary" among conservatives (because after all, who decides what is necessary or meaningful but cis het white Christians?).
As for "they" in the singular form, we already have that form. If you want to make up a new one, do it. No one's stopping you. But meanwhile, the one we are using to refer to non binary people who let us know that's what they want is "they" in the singular.
Of course, nobody needs to reveal that they are non binary.
As long as you don't feel the need to give them your opinion as to whether they should need to or not need to.
A non binary individual who was female sexed at birth, can use the non binary term when she wants or she can use the term she when she wants to hide her non binary identity.
OK... Or a non binary individual can prefer whatever pronouns they want in whatever situation they want.
The problem with "they" in the singular is that
you can't put them in either box. It's only a matter of getting used to seeing and hearing and experiencing this reality.
Oh, that reminds me of another interesting side note about a huge influencer in helping cis het white Christian society used to seeing terms and people and check boxes and pronouns outside of their experience,
the U.S. military. It was about 10-12 years ago, maybe longer, that some military systems began changing forms and database fields to something different from the strictly binary. Some databases, depending on the agency, no longer require anything for sex/gender. Others, such as medical databases, allow changes from M to F or vice versa in personnel records to accommodate transitioned individuals. That might have been expanded by now. It's been a long time since I worked for the DoD.
Another interesting note and speculation: the U.S. military still does not allow people with atypical sexual and reproductive parts, but I expect that will change soon enough.
If the non binary community wants to be taken seriously,
They
are taken seriously, just not by
you.
they might need to be open about their identities and choose a word that isn't confusing, imo.
Your opinion is actually not needed by non binary people on either of those points, and it isn't confusing at all. If
you do indeed find it confusing, and I doubt that, then
you are confused, because using "they" in the singular is not confusing to English speakers in general. Hell, it's not even that confusing to ESL speakers. At least, there is much more in our language to confuse them before that one.
( opinions aren't facts )
...
At the same time, anyone with a minority gender identity has the right to remain in the closet if they feel safer that way.
Of course they do. Why does that even need to be stated? Did someone suggest a "minority gender identity" does
not have that right? That has literally not been said or implied once.
It's like atheists. Some of us are very open about our atheism while others are more comfortable in the closet. It's up to individuals to decide what's best for them.
I totally agree with this and I've said this exact thing for many years. Only I don't think of it so much as people "deciding what's comfortable for themselves," although that is indeed also true, but more as a matter of safety and security. People have been throwing away their atheist and gay or in whatever way non-conformist kids for a long time. Sometimes they abuse them before throwing them away. This is not fringe and it's not new. As long as right wing extremism in the U.S. continues unchecked, it is well within the realm of possibility that straight up murdering your infidel kids and filthy homosexual kids will become more and more common much like extremist Muslims engage in honor killings.
But I mean, if you like thinking of it in terms of them just deciding it's more comfortable, you wouldn't technically be wrong.
I would hope that we could discuss controversial things without making negative assumptions about each other. That to me is one of the problems in Western culture these days.
One of the problems I see is that the cis het white Christian mentality is deeply and truly convinced that it doesn't need to ever think about anything beyond preconceived beliefs. Much of that is subconscious, like with every human, but unlike everyone else, the cis het white Christian mentality has only recently been challenged in any real way due to technology and media. On the other hand, minorities and people
not mainstream conformist in some way have always been challenged.
Black Americans and Black Australians and Black Canadians and Black British citizens have always been fully aware of mainstream opinions and perspective and way of life. LGBTQ+ people around the world have only intermittently enjoyed the acceptance of wider society, but mostly they have always been aware of mainstream perspective and way of life. Latinx, Native Americans, and other minority groups in the U.S. have always been fully aware of white society and stories and history and voices.
In the Western world, cis het white people are the only ones not forced into a society that doesn't see us or it oppresses, punishes, marginalizes us when it does. And for some reason, now that we're being challenged and we have access to millions of voices and perspectives and stories and histories that were denied us by our white education, we still arrogantly go on as if that's how it's supposed to be.
Now, I'm ashamed for spending so much time trying to explain my position.
I'm not. I put a lot of labor into these threads because it matters, and not just to me.
I obviously have no free will.
PS. I still love you Floof!
Can we lighten up now? It's almost 4:20.
Well, I love you, too, but I will not stop calling out the disrespectful, unresearched, and closed minded nature of your actual views no matter how much you try to sandwich them with claims of respect and research and open mindedness.
I may or may not respond again. These posts can be not only time consuming but mentally and emotionally taxing. When I do choose to do it because it's always worth it to call out inhumane views and challenge the falsehoods and after-the-fact shortcuts put forth to try to justify them. The attitudes and false or misleading nonsense put forth here has real consequences for real people as long as they are not challenged.