For those who think the Swedish approach to regulating sex work works

[Loren Pechtel]

https://old.reddit.com/r/SexWorkers/comments/n11oqk/the_ongoing_witchhunt_for_fssw_in_sweden_the/

A whole bunch of ways that "protecting" the women actually hurts them.

 

[Lion IRC]

How can it be simultaneously legal to sell something yet illegal to buy that very same thing?

 

[Gospel]

How can it be simultaneously legal to sell something yet illegal to buy that very same thing?

I've been asking the same question about weed for years.

 

[thebeave]

How can it be simultaneously legal to sell something yet illegal to buy that very same thing?

I know, right? The patriarchy was seriously asleep at the wheel when that law was written.

 

[Lion IRC]

Whatever happened to a womyn's right to do whatever zhe wants with zir body?

 

[Toni]

Wow. A.....reddit file talking about how bad it is to criminalize pimping.

Quelle surprise.

Here are a couple of more..legitimate articles re: prostitution in Sweden:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/...ets-buyers-but-some-say-it-hurts-sellers.html

https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org...kit Community Guide, NSWP - November 2015.pdf

https://sciencenorway.no/forskningn...swedes-attitudes-towards-prostitution/1450681

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised. The same researchers warn that the figures should be analysed with care. Skilbrei emphasises that it is difficult to compare the scope of human trafficking over time and in different countries, among other things because the number of victims of human trafficking is counted very differently.

“In Sweden, they only count victims of human trafficking that may be useful in a criminal case. However, they hardly represent the actual figures. In Norway, we also identify victims that will never appear in court. Thus, the scope is difficult to compare even with neighbouring countries.”

“May reduced demand also reduce the scope of human trafficking?”

“That is one theory. But one can also imagine that the scope gets bigger. If those who choose to sell sex stop whereas only those who don’t have a choice continue,” says Skilbrei.

“If I have other options, I won’t bother selling sex if I risk being approached by the police. If I’m a victim of human trafficking, I don’t have a choice. And who are the customers that stop purchasing sex following a ban? Perhaps those with more scruples?”

“Which theory do you find most likely?”

“One can imagine that a ban makes the more ‘straight’ customers and sellers disappear from the market when it comes under pressure. And then the human traffickers get to rule the market.”

“But at the same time, one can imagine that criminalising sex purchase makes it more difficult to sustain human trafficking, because it attracts more attention from the police. Both scenarios are possible consequences of criminalising.”

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wow. A.....reddit file talking about how bad it is to criminalize pimping.

Quelle surprise.

Here are a couple of more..legitimate articles re: prostitution in Sweden:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/...ets-buyers-but-some-say-it-hurts-sellers.html

https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org...kit Community Guide, NSWP - November 2015.pdf

https://sciencenorway.no/forskningn...swedes-attitudes-towards-prostitution/1450681

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised. The same researchers warn that the figures should be analysed with care. Skilbrei emphasises that it is difficult to compare the scope of human trafficking over time and in different countries, among other things because the number of victims of human trafficking is counted very differently.

“In Sweden, they only count victims of human trafficking that may be useful in a criminal case. However, they hardly represent the actual figures. In Norway, we also identify victims that will never appear in court. Thus, the scope is difficult to compare even with neighbouring countries.”

“May reduced demand also reduce the scope of human trafficking?”

“That is one theory. But one can also imagine that the scope gets bigger. If those who choose to sell sex stop whereas only those who don’t have a choice continue,” says Skilbrei.

“If I have other options, I won’t bother selling sex if I risk being approached by the police. If I’m a victim of human trafficking, I don’t have a choice. And who are the customers that stop purchasing sex following a ban? Perhaps those with more scruples?”

“Which theory do you find most likely?”

“One can imagine that a ban makes the more ‘straight’ customers and sellers disappear from the market when it comes under pressure. And then the human traffickers get to rule the market.”

“But at the same time, one can imagine that criminalising sex purchase makes it more difficult to sustain human trafficking, because it attracts more attention from the police. Both scenarios are possible consequences of criminalising.”

Which has nothing to do with the points in the post. They're just straightforward results of the rule.

We see lesser versions of many of these with marijuana in the states where it is legal.

 

[laughing dog]

Wow. A.....reddit file talking about how bad it is to criminalize pimping.

Quelle surprise.

Here are a couple of more..legitimate articles re: prostitution in Sweden:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/...ets-buyers-but-some-say-it-hurts-sellers.html

https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org...kit Community Guide, NSWP - November 2015.pdf

https://sciencenorway.no/forskningn...swedes-attitudes-towards-prostitution/1450681

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised. The same researchers warn that the figures should be analysed with care. Skilbrei emphasises that it is difficult to compare the scope of human trafficking over time and in different countries, among other things because the number of victims of human trafficking is counted very differently.

“In Sweden, they only count victims of human trafficking that may be useful in a criminal case. However, they hardly represent the actual figures. In Norway, we also identify victims that will never appear in court. Thus, the scope is difficult to compare even with neighbouring countries.”

“May reduced demand also reduce the scope of human trafficking?”

“That is one theory. But one can also imagine that the scope gets bigger. If those who choose to sell sex stop whereas only those who don’t have a choice continue,” says Skilbrei.

“If I have other options, I won’t bother selling sex if I risk being approached by the police. If I’m a victim of human trafficking, I don’t have a choice. And who are the customers that stop purchasing sex following a ban? Perhaps those with more scruples?”

“Which theory do you find most likely?”

“One can imagine that a ban makes the more ‘straight’ customers and sellers disappear from the market when it comes under pressure. And then the human traffickers get to rule the market.”

“But at the same time, one can imagine that criminalising sex purchase makes it more difficult to sustain human trafficking, because it attracts more attention from the police. Both scenarios are possible consequences of criminalising.”

Which has nothing to do with the points in the post.

There are no points in the OP - just a link and a nebulous handwave.

 

[Lion IRC]

Does the end justify the means - even if there are some peripheral unintended consequences?

Might we reduce violence against women by banning pornography?
How about banning drugs?
Violent video games?

Might be worth it.

 

[Derec]

Whatever happened to a womyn's right to do whatever zhe wants with zir body?

They don't know what's good for them and need the matriarchs in the Riksdag (or else Toni) to tell them what they need to do with their bodies.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Does the end justify the means - even if there are some peripheral unintended consequences?

Might we reduce violence against women by banning pornography?
How about banning drugs?
Violent video games?

Might be worth it.

Sometimes the end justifies the means, and sometimes it does not. It's a matter to be considered on a case by case basis.

 

[Derec]

Wow. A.....reddit file talking about how bad it is to criminalize pimping.

How do you define "pimping"? Because as can be seen form the statements by Swedish sex workers themselves, the Swedish definition is very broad and includes things that can't rationally be called "pimping". Also, Sweden criminalizes buying sexual services while at the same time pretending adult women freely selling sexual services are all "victims" that need the matriarchal nanny state to save them from evil men and from themselves.

Here are a couple of more..legitimate articles re: prostitution in Sweden:

From your second link, on the first page.
"[The Swedish] model has damaging
consequences for sex workers’ health,
rights and living conditions. However,
these negative impacts are rarely
discussed, and sex workers’ voices
are consistently silenced. "

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised.

Which "researchers"? Those with ideological opposition to sex work?

Also, prohibitionists generally equate all sex work with "human trafficking".

Overall, I think people who in any way call themselves "liberals" should seek to maximize people's liberty, including sexual liberty. Prohibiting consensual adult sex work flies in the face of liberal principles.

 

[Patooka]

For those who think the Swedish approach to regulating sex work works

I honestly didn't know that Sweden is being used as an argument in regards to sex work. I mean, generally, when something political crops up and the people discussing it are from various nations invariably someone raises an argument like, "Well, look at X". X being a country. For example "look at New Zealand's gun control laws." or "look at Thailand's free speech laws".

I honestly haven't heard of Sweden being used as an argument for or against sex work. I am confused as fuck right now.

 

[Derec]

I honestly haven't heard of Sweden being used as an argument for or against sex work. I am confused as fuck right now.

Swedish model is used by the illiberal Left as the model to emulate. Unfortunately it has been copied in countries like Canada and France. In NYC, the Democratic DA has de facto instituted the model saying he will not enforce prostitution laws against sex workers, only against clients.

 

[Lion IRC]

Whatever happened to a womyn's right to do whatever zhe wants with zir body?

They don't know what's good for them and need the matriarchs in the Riksdag (or else Toni) to tell them what they need to do with their bodies.

Yeah, a bit like atheist wimmin telling independent, smart, articulate women of faith that they are too stupid to know that their own free expression of faith in God is internalised misogyny and/or inability to think for themselves. #irony

 

[laughing dog]

Whatever happened to a womyn's right to do whatever zhe wants with zir body?

They don't know what's good for them and need the matriarchs in the Riksdag (or else Toni) to tell them what they need to do with their bodies.

Yeah, a bit like atheist wimmin telling independent, smart, articulate women of faith that they are too stupid to know that their own free expression of faith in God is internalised misogyny and/or inability to think for themselves. #irony

Or the irony of misogynists and the Catholic Church telling women what is good for them.

 

[Toni]

Wow. A.....reddit file talking about how bad it is to criminalize pimping.

Quelle surprise.

Here are a couple of more..legitimate articles re: prostitution in Sweden:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/...ets-buyers-but-some-say-it-hurts-sellers.html

https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org...kit Community Guide, NSWP - November 2015.pdf

https://sciencenorway.no/forskningn...swedes-attitudes-towards-prostitution/1450681

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised. The same researchers warn that the figures should be analysed with care. Skilbrei emphasises that it is difficult to compare the scope of human trafficking over time and in different countries, among other things because the number of victims of human trafficking is counted very differently.

“In Sweden, they only count victims of human trafficking that may be useful in a criminal case. However, they hardly represent the actual figures. In Norway, we also identify victims that will never appear in court. Thus, the scope is difficult to compare even with neighbouring countries.”

“May reduced demand also reduce the scope of human trafficking?”

“That is one theory. But one can also imagine that the scope gets bigger. If those who choose to sell sex stop whereas only those who don’t have a choice continue,” says Skilbrei.

“If I have other options, I won’t bother selling sex if I risk being approached by the police. If I’m a victim of human trafficking, I don’t have a choice. And who are the customers that stop purchasing sex following a ban? Perhaps those with more scruples?”

“Which theory do you find most likely?”

“One can imagine that a ban makes the more ‘straight’ customers and sellers disappear from the market when it comes under pressure. And then the human traffickers get to rule the market.”

“But at the same time, one can imagine that criminalising sex purchase makes it more difficult to sustain human trafficking, because it attracts more attention from the police. Both scenarios are possible consequences of criminalising.”

Which has nothing to do with the points in the post. They're just straightforward results of the rule.

We see lesser versions of many of these with marijuana in the states where it is legal.

Try reading a link now and then, Loren. I mean, you have no problem linking to a reddit file and expecting us to take the anonymous ramblings of someone who purports to be a prostitute as gospel because it suits YOUR POV. If you bothered to actually read any of the links I posted, you'd see a lot of support from not anonymous sources.

 

[Toni]

How do you define "pimping"? Because as can be seen form the statements by Swedish sex workers themselves, the Swedish definition is very broad and includes things that can't rationally be called "pimping". Also, Sweden criminalizes buying sexual services while at the same time pretending adult women freely selling sexual services are all "victims" that need the matriarchal nanny state to save them from evil men and from themselves.


From your second link, on the first page.
"[The Swedish] model has damaging
consequences for sex workers’ health,
rights and living conditions. However,
these negative impacts are rarely
discussed, and sex workers’ voices
are consistently silenced. "

Several researchers have concluded that there is less human trafficking in countries where prostitution is criminalised and more in countries where prostitution is legalised.

Which "researchers"? Those with ideological opposition to sex work?

Also, prohibitionists generally equate all sex work with "human trafficking".

Overall, I think people who in any way call themselves "liberals" should seek to maximize people's liberty, including sexual liberty. Prohibiting consensual adult sex work flies in the face of liberal principles.

Take up your problem with the sources of the articles with the authors of the articles.

My issue with prostitution hinges entirely upon the word 'consensual.'

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does the end justify the means - even if there are some peripheral unintended consequences?

Might we reduce violence against women by banning pornography?

Reality: Widespread availability of porn lowers sex crime rates.

How about banning drugs?

1) I suggest you look at Prohibition.

2) It's pretty obvious the drug war causes more harm than the drugs.

3) It doesn't work anyway.

Might be worth it.

How about banning religion?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For those who think the Swedish approach to regulating sex work works

I honestly didn't know that Sweden is being used as an argument in regards to sex work. I mean, generally, when something political crops up and the people discussing it are from various nations invariably someone raises an argument like, "Well, look at X". X being a country. For example "look at New Zealand's gun control laws." or "look at Thailand's free speech laws".

I honestly haven't heard of Sweden being used as an argument for or against sex work. I am confused as fuck right now.

Sweden has gone with the approach of making it legal to sell sex but illegal to buy sex. Some on here have advocated for that approach--so when I ran into this I posted it.