Woke is white arrogance

[Alcoholic Actuary]

It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

This is precisely correct. A long long long time ago, minorities used the word to describe white people who had the capacity for empathy. It has long since been culturally misappropriated by the right to denigrate the left. And for all of it's uses, I've never once seen any white person sporting their "I'm Woke" t-shirts. This guy in the video probably still has books of stamps so he can pay his bills with checks in the mail.

aa

 

[TomC]

It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

It isn't quite that simple, but you've got an important point.

"Woke" doesn't have as much specific meaning as it has connotations and assumptions and such.

I've heard some incredibly stupid things come out of very Woke mouths. Undeniably racist in the black supremacist sort of way. Completely unable to distinguish between correlation and causation. Refusing to see that US culture is dramatically different than it was in 1965, much less 1865. The list is long.

That doesn't mean all Wokesters are like that. But plenty are to provide ammunition for detractors and skeptics.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've heard some incredibly stupid things come out of very Woke mouths. Undeniably racist in the black supremacist sort of way. Completely unable to distinguish between correlation and causation. Refusing to see that US culture is dramatically different than it was in 1965, much less 1865. The list is long.

Yeah, that is exactly what the whole "woke" thing is. This presumption that there is no slavery, no lynchings, therefore... we're good. But we aren't. A substantial amount of existing inequity was self-perpetuated from policies intentionally put forth at one point, and we don't need to go back too far in time for those policies. Heck, the Voting Rights Act wasn't passed 100 years ago.

More to the point regarding the self-perpetuating portion of systemic racism is that there are policies, rules, regulations that exist today that are not intended to impact along racial lines, but do. Some of it is old school rules that have long since forgotten their origin while others occur due to oversight or abject blindness to the problem. This doesn't require racist attitudes to exist and to impact along racial lines. This is the problem now. And when people complain about these real issues, we get others saying, 'It ain't the 1960s'. Correct, it is the 2020s, so why are these problems still here? And why are people refusing to even listen?

Some want to extrapolate the wackiest black supremacism nut cases onto the "Woke" label, so they can just handwave it all away. There is nothing to see here. All is fine. Look, this dozen of blacks say it is okay, therefore, it is okay.

I'm white, I'm not ashamed, like most whites that see inequity in the system. I worked hard to get where I am... but that doesn't mean some blacks didnn't work harder and just spin their wheels because they weren't allowed to move into residential neighborhoods and perpetuate the American dream.

 

[JohnG]

Everyone is the hero of their own story, it doesn’t matter what side of any fence you’re on.

You think white supremists don’t come off sounding smug?

 

[laughing dog]

A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures. Basically, the ability to be self-deprecating, without inviting pity or scorn, is a sign or high status. It isn't some contest to see who can say the worst things about themselves, but rather a way of signalling that you're so awesome that you can put yourself down but no-one could take you seriously.

While I am sure that is true in some cases, I think as a general rule, that is ridiculous. The ability to not take oneself seriously is a positive trait that should be encouraged.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "no-one could take you seriously". What I meant is that "no-one could mistake your gesture of self-deprecation for a sincere expression of your feelings."

I think that is ridiculous as a general rule for the rationale I expressed.

 

[Bronzeage]

I love Zizek. Here's a great video where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

M[/YOUTUBE]

Sweden has an extreme equality culture (called the law of Jante). You can always tell whoever has the most status by that they're the ones kissing the most ass and humbling themselves the most. It's the same logic behind woke.

It's 100% fake and disingenuous.

Woke IS racism.

When a person says, "I don't want to be an asshole," assholes always see this as an attack.

Their natural reaction is declare anti-asshole to be a form of asshole behavior, and then proceed to normalize asshole behavior.

It's not a situation of denying they have done something offensive, it's a matter of declaring their behavior to be proper and good, and those offended by it are the true assholes.

 

[TomC]

Everyone is the hero of their own story, it doesn’t matter what side of any fence you’re on.

You think white supremists don’t come off sounding smug?

Of course they do!
Ideologues usually do.

But it isn't just wypepo. There are plenty of Wokesters who are extremely smug. Including here on TFT.

Not that I'm naming names or anything.

Tom

 

[blastula]

I don't know if I've heard Zizek before, but that was tough to listen to. When he debated Jordan Peterson, it must have been like Sylvester the Cat vs. Kermit the frog.

Sorry if this has been said many times already.

 

[untermensche]

I will take woke over the treasonous and deluded right wing any day. Fuck the 45th President and all his enablers.

The enemy of my enemy might be my friend, but I don't need to pretend they're in any way sensible.

Define "woke" in your own words.

 

[Gospel]

I will take woke over the treasonous and deluded right wing any day. Fuck the 45th President and all his enablers.

The enemy of my enemy might be my friend, but I don't need to pretend they're in any way sensible.

Define "woke" in your own words.

I thought that was in the OP.

 

[untermensche]

...Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior....

So "woke" is being humble?

This term "virtue signaling" is another way of saying the honesty from a decent person. It has an assumption that nobody has virtue. It is nihilistic rubbish.

 

[lpetrich]

"Woke" was originally like "red pilled", becoming aware of something very important.

But right-wingers have turned it into a meaningless dirty word, as they did with the phrase "politically correct".


Like foaming at the mouth at "woke capital", while never considering anything broader, like why these "woke" or "politically correct" companies never seem to go bankrupt as a result of it. They seem to have all the broader perspective of a baby.

 

[Patooka]

"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's an asinine word. Its meaning is -- in totality -- "stuff liberals say and think, that I don't like."

This is precisely correct. A long long long time ago, minorities used the word to describe white people who had the capacity for empathy. It has long since been culturally misappropriated by the right to denigrate the left. And for all of it's uses, I've never once seen any white person sporting their "I'm Woke" t-shirts. This guy in the video probably still has books of stamps so he can pay his bills with checks in the mail.

aa

Any term for any group formed around a new idea or a group in opposition to a majority, often starts out as an insult by their enemies to disparage them. They then appropriate it and make it into their own. There's a long history of this. "Gays" is one. "Impressionism" is another. "Sans Coulottes". "Conservatism" Whenever this isn't happening we need to ask ourselves why. The answer is typically that it's a fake minority position. It's more often a majority position, framed as a faux minority position, put into existence intended to preserve the status quo and allowing the powerful to stay in power. "Socialism" is one of these. "Nationalism". But these tend to be phased out

I suspect a reason woke has fallen out of favour among the wokes (ie social justice warriors) is because it doesn't seem to be so popular among blacks?

Zizek has a great example. The term "native American" is used by wokes as more respectful term for Indian. But "American" is a European term. The term Native American and Indian are equivalent and both imply that the Native Americans/Indians are lesser than the white immigrant population. Both terms are inherently racist. There's no shortage of Native American languages to pick words from. Perhaps one of those? But those won't catch on, because then the majority population wokes won't have a word, they understand, telling them how much more awesome they are than Native Americans.

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

You remind me of feminists who has the answer "it's the patriarchy" to whatever they don't like.

 

[Patooka]

"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

 

[DrZoidberg]

"Woke" is a litmus test. If you are in a conversation with someone who uses phrases like, "cancel culture", "SJW", "woke", "red-pilled", "cringe" or "based", you are not talking to a human being. You are having a conversation with an algorithm.

How doesn't that apply to anyone having any conversation about anything? Everybody likes to think of themselves as uniquely clear minded who understands what's really going on, ie red pilled.

Your statement seems to prove that which you are arguing against. The mere fact that somebody uses a word you don't like doesn't require you to think, you can just disregard it. That's always been the attitude of the privileged who know their power isn't threatened, so they don't need to care what the little people are saying.

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

 

[Swammerdami]

OK, it takes about four minutes for Zizek to make a point, and it's incoherent anyway.

Here's a great video...

You are taking the piss.

... where he puts the finger on the problem of woke. Since only the priviliged need to humble themselves in the woke ideology, acting humble and virtue signalling is just another way to say that you are superior. That's of course why it's so popular. Who doesn't want to go around telling everybody how awesome they are? What could possibly be more of an ego boost. other than to literally do it?

A long time ago I read a self-help book that said that self-deprecating humour is a sign of high self-esteem. This didn't have anything to do with a particular ethnic group, religion or political ideology, it was a constant across all cultures....

I'm not seeing how this plays out among white academias. If a white academic acknowledges their privilege, it isn't necessarily a flex; I think it can come across as a genuine attempt to gain some perspective.

(I didn't watch 4 minutes: I gave up after one. He kept wiping his nose and scratching himself. What's all that? Some variation of Tourette's syndrome?)

Awareness of and empathy for other ethnicities, other cultures, other genders, etc. is good. Surely all but hard-core bigots will agree with that. Only the most ignorant white Americans are unaware that their ethnicity gives them advantages in the U.S. Do the anti-Wokers here deny any of that?

Some privileged people are smug or snobbish — that was true long before "Wokeness" became a thing. If they choose to be snobbish about their own "wokeness" instead of snobbish about something else ... so what? And sure, one can find — usually with help from Tucker Carlson or others of that ilk — examples of wokeness gone too far; but again ... so what? Such exceptional exaggerated examples of "embracing human diversity" are not on America's List of Top 100 Problems. Are they?

No, the whole "I Hate Wokeness" movement is just a crusade by the right-wing to make bigots feel better about themselves, and to sell more MAGA apparel.

 

[Patooka]

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Who? Who does this? Honestly, if it is just some random fucker who you don't know their name, aren't in any position of power or influence and you are still worried about their behaviour because it might make "your side look bad" fuck 'em and calm the fuck down. I'd rather be concerned about actual fuckers who are in important positions of power and influence and their unproductive behaviour.

Let me know when "woke" becomes like the Proud Boys - don't bother me beforehand.

 

[bigfield]

Because as a rule the type of people who use such terms get all their opinions from youtube clips and are pretty monolithic. Honestly, when you talk about political correctness or being woke you are pretty much quoting Jordan Peterson or Eric Weinstein verbatim. And it's the same shitty fucking arguments. Much like the tired freedom of speech arguments, criticism against "woke" can be boiled down to, "I want to be an offensive cunt with zero consequences and people are calling me out. Waagh!"

I don't think I am. I think Jordan Peterson is a clown. I'm in the opposite ideological corner. Same deal with Eric Weinstein. I think conservatives suck. What I dislike about wokes and SJW's is that they're making my side look bad.

I think you've completely misunderstood who I am and why I'm saying the things I am. I'm a left progressive.

Sure, you've made arguments in the past that put you at odds with Peterson's wacky brand of conservatism, but that doesn't change the fact that your arguments on this topic are just more of the same chaff that a few of those "intellectual dark web" types seem to repeat ad nauseam. Your argument doesn't magically become smarter because you're a lefty offering constructive criticism to his comrades.