Overseas wives - exploitation?

[excreationist]

On a "forever alone" group I posted

Possible solution - overseas bride?

Some people I know have found a wife overseas - like my intellectual introverted uncle who visited China and found a lot of interested women - he chose an accountant.

Some of the best countries might be the Philippines (mostly Christian) and Thailand (mostly Buddhist). Apparently they like old fashioned values and often they don't mind a man who is quite a bit older.

I'm not sure if Russian brides lead to successful marriages as often though.

I personally didn't purse that possibility because I am turned off by bad English and I am broke so it might be harder for me to attract those women. (and I eventually found a wife)

A reply:

Fair warning - people can easily figure out the arrangement. Like, it's really really obvious.

My reply:

When I see my uncle I think "good for him!"

BTW for some people this might be the difference between having a young loving attractive wife or having a hard time even finding a girlfriend (that they are attracted to)

The post was removed and I am banned for 7 days.
Their message:

We do not support the exploitation of women in mail order brides/seeking poor foreigners type situations. Do not post things like that.

My reply:

Hi I wasn't talking about "mail order brides" - my uncle just visited on his own and found interested women. I guess the "overseas bride" part of the title seemed like a mail order bride... well I had been promoting the idea of looking overseas in some of the comments but now I know to stop that. Sorry about that.

Their reply:

It's the same concept. Go to a poor country and offer them financial security that they could never get in their home. That's exploitation. Do you think those attractive young women would look at them twice if they were from the same country? Can you explain why not? Because it's not love.

My reply:

If you meet enough of these women I think in some cases there can be love. Perhaps it is similar to women who are attracted to billionaires? BTW in the case of my uncle he was very poor and the couple and their 3 daughters initially lived in the one bedroom. His wife worked very hard in a restaurant (and used to be an accountant). I think him and his wife are genuinely in love. I think in China she was getting older and men weren't really interested. Though I think in a lot of cases of "mail order brides" the woman gets divorced and looks for a better partner.

Theirs:

You were discussing getting attractive young loyal brides when otherwise they couldn't get a partner. Were all of the attractive men killed in their country that they need to do this? Do jobs not exist in their country? Explain to me how these men aren't exploiting something and are getting beautiful young loyal women. Can you do that? Tell me how these beautiful young loyal girls weren't wanted by every man around and settled for these socially awkward and generally unattractive men. You know it's exploitation, not love. Is it live for some cases like your uncle? Yes, it sounds that way. Is that the norm? No, and that is what we need to worry about. It's prostitution to have a chance to not live in poverty and hoping there's no abuse. That's sad and sick.

Me:

I don't think it is necessarily just about the money - it could be because these people are "Westerners".... e.g. from a book:

It’s not about confidence. Consider one study on race. Three people-- a white man, an Asian woman, and a Japanese man were seeking romance in Tokyo, so they posted personal ads seeking romance in the Tokyo Classified Ads, Japan’s largest free circulation publication. Within a few weeks, the Asian woman received close to two hundred replies to her personal ad, from men of all races. The white man received about 100 replies from interested Japanese women. The Japanese man received only two replies, both from men who had mistaken his name for a woman’s name.​

anyway I see what you're saying that some people can be sad and sick....

If a guy visits those countries and meets women on his own (or does chat over a website) and finds a genuine connection I don't really see a problem..... perhaps because I know of a few guys who have done that.
Is part of the problem that the women seem to have old-fashioned values? (wanting to "take care of your man"?)

What do people think of men that have found a wife overseas?

If the focus is on finding a very young wife and the money involved then that is a problem.

 

[excreationist]

Then this shows their "forever alone" views... though in the case of my marriage my pretty good social skills and looks seem to be a major factor...

Asian women are fetishsized. They are supposed to be more docile, agreeable, loyal, feminine, and all of that other bs. They are supposed to be some weird example of anime girls. That's why they got that many replies.

Your own example doesn't say you can find loving young attractive loyal wives this time. Now it's white men can find interest. Does that sound like love? No. Does chasing women for a stereotype sound like love? No. Unattractive socially awkward people are not going to be desired anywhere. That's a simple fact. Relationships are built on social skills and attraction is first based on looks. This isn't a fairytale.

This went off topic a bit and shows the context about being about "forever alone" men...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two major problems:

1) In most such situations you do not have nearly enough time with someone to know what they are really like.

2) There is a major incentive for them to pretend interest long enough to get the green card and then leave. There's also an incentive for them to make domestic violence allegations against you because that can allow them to stay without waiting for their final green card. (When a green card is issued to someone married less than 2 years it's conditional, you reapply in two years to have the conditional removed.)

Conclusion: Mail order brides are a horrible idea.

Note that this does not mean marrying a foreigner is a horrible idea. If one of you is in the other's country (or even you're both in a third country) and a relationship develops normally expect more cultural land mines than normal but it's a reasonable thing to do.

(I am married to a foreigner, our relationship developed from proximity, not her seeking to better her position in life.)

 

[excreationist]

Two major problems:

1) In most such situations you do not have nearly enough time with someone to know what they are really like.

2) There is a major incentive for them to pretend interest long enough to get the green card and then leave. There's also an incentive for them to make domestic violence allegations against you because that can allow them to stay without waiting for their final green card. (When a green card is issued to someone married less than 2 years it's conditional, you reapply in two years to have the conditional removed.)

Conclusion: Mail order brides are a horrible idea.

On that site they thought I was talking about mail order brides but I meant people that go to a country and handle the introductions themselves. Here you're showing how the women can also be the ones exploiting the men.....

Perhaps there is a way of telling if a woman is probably genuine.... e.g. clusters of body language, etc, how conservative they seem and dress... (vs being promiscuous) or how likely divorce is amongst them (perhaps divorce is more likely for Russian women vs some other countries) And whether they are happy being conservative?
Perhaps a high divorce rate for "mail order brides" is similar to US divorces in general (41% of all first marriages end in divorce) [in that article it says Russia has by far the highest divorce rate]

Divorce Statistics and Facts | What Affects Divorce Rates in the U.S.?

We found every divorce statistic, study and fact you need to know - over 115 in all. Find out what impacts divorce (spoiler: almost everything).

www.wf-lawyers.com

(I am married to a foreigner, our relationship developed from proximity, not her seeking to better her position in life.)

I'm curious about what nationality she is (if that is appropriate to say)

 

[Bronzeage]

Many years ago, I had a parts clerk who was going through a divorce. There was an unused office which had an unused work station, which is to say, a regular PC, probably Windows98. The parts clerk would spend his lunch hour in this office, browsing Russian Bride sites. It soon wasn't good for anything else, because the screen was covered in pop ups and windows which could not be closed. Some time later, the PC was needed someplace else, so our IT guy came and took it away. He later told me the hard drive was infested with every Trojan and spyware he had ever heard of and some he hadn't. He trashed the drive instead of trying to clean it.

The foreign bride industry predates the internet by a couple centuries. It pretty much grew along with the rise of printed newspapers and a reliable postal system.

I don't know where the idea that Asian women are particularly docile and agreeable. Maybe it comes from old movies, but I worked with a bunch of guys who came to the US in the 1980s, from Viet Nam. They were all ethnic Chinese and were married to the same. They were absolutely terrified of doing something to displease their wife.

One of them had a back yard shop and he did a lot of side work for the local Vietnamese community. One day he comes to me and says he's in big trouble and needs my help. He explains that he has a good customer and he's been working on this man's cars for over 10 years. Now the man's daughter is 16 and has her first car. She brings the car to him, dressed like most teen girls in the 90's. He says, "My wife watches from the window until the girl leaves." He asks me to take care of this girl's car so she doesn't need to come back to his shop. Since I am a river to my people, I couldn't refuse.

 

[excreationist]

I don't know where the idea that Asian women are particularly docile and agreeable.

Asian fetish - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In countries like the United States, women of primarily East Asian origin are often stereotyped as subservient, passive, and quiet. The image of the geisha, a sexually suggestive but silent woman, may have contributed to this. East and Southeast women are often depicted as giving suggestive gazes but remaining quiet while seducing a man. This portrayal persists today, along with the idea of Asian (particularly East and Southeast Asian) women—and, to a lesser extent, men—being exotic and submissive. East Asian women are often referred to as 'china dolls', meaning they are dainty and beautiful, with the implication of absence of feelings and autonomy.​

​

On that other hand there's:

Dragon Lady - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dragon Lady is usually a stereotype of certain East Asian and occasionally South Asian and/or Southeast Asian women as strong, deceitful, domineering, mysterious, and often sexually alluring​

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two major problems:

1) In most such situations you do not have nearly enough time with someone to know what they are really like.

2) There is a major incentive for them to pretend interest long enough to get the green card and then leave. There's also an incentive for them to make domestic violence allegations against you because that can allow them to stay without waiting for their final green card. (When a green card is issued to someone married less than 2 years it's conditional, you reapply in two years to have the conditional removed.)

Conclusion: Mail order brides are a horrible idea.

On that site they thought I was talking about mail order brides but I meant people that go to a country and handle the introductions themselves. Here you're showing how the women can also be the ones exploiting the men.....

Handling the introductions themselves doesn't change the basic problem.

(I am married to a foreigner, our relationship developed from proximity, not her seeking to better her position in life.)
I'm curious about what nationality she is (if that is appropriate to say)

Chinese, although long since naturalized.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't know where the idea that Asian women are particularly docile and agreeable. Maybe it comes from old movies, but I worked with a bunch of guys who came to the US in the 1980s, from Viet Nam. They were all ethnic Chinese and were married to the same. They were absolutely terrified of doing something to displease their wife.

Seconded. Docile doesn't describe any Chinese woman I've known.

One of them had a back yard shop and he did a lot of side work for the local Vietnamese community. One day he comes to me and says he's in big trouble and needs my help. He explains that he has a good customer and he's been working on this man's cars for over 10 years. Now the man's daughter is 16 and has her first car. She brings the car to him, dressed like most teen girls in the 90's. He says, "My wife watches from the window until the girl leaves." He asks me to take care of this girl's car so she doesn't need to come back to his shop. Since I am a river to my people, I couldn't refuse.

Yeah. It's gotten my wife rather annoyed--former coworkers that afraid to talk to her because of how their wives will react. Even my being there doesn't change that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

You tried to help incels?

Two major problems:

1) In most such situations you do not have nearly enough time with someone to know what they are really like.

If he's talking to incels, this is not an issue as all they really see in a woman is a pulse.
There are some that would welcome a chance to 'use' deceased women while they're still warm.

But, sadly, the true incel is devoted to being the ne suffering the greatest possible amount, and no one's suffering approaches the depths of their despair. They're in a race to the bottom and do not welcome any attempt to actually solve their issues. They just want you to recognize that actual slavery, starvation, or the worst facism fails in comparison to being forever alone and looked down upon for their gentics.

 

[excreationist]

You tried to help incels?

Yeah I also suggested they lower their standards...
e.g. post #7 https://iidb.org/index.php?threads/seduction-pickup-pua-relationships-etc.25181/post-953162
But this is their official stance:

Q: Why don't you guys just lower your standards?
A: Because lowering standards already hasn't brought us any positive results. Those who refuse to lower their standards below Stacies usually end up banned for LARP. Refusing to settle for something below one's looksmatch is acceptable.

Q: What is LARP?
A: Live action role play. In other words, pretending to be something you are not.

Q: What is looksmatch?
A: In the blackpill community many people believe that it's possible to rate physical appearance (usually from 1 to 10). Looksmatch is someone whose rating as the same as yours.

From "ForeverAlone"

This is not an incel sub, any incel references, slang, or inference will be deemed hate speech and met with a ban

Have you tried lowering your standards?

People are allowed to have a set of standards. It's what keeps people from having unfulfilling relationships. It's not fair to anyone to ask out someone you're not attracted to on the basis of "lowering your standards".

If he's talking to incels, this is not an issue as all they really see in a woman is a pulse.

From an incels forum:

Q: Why don't you guys learn game, be confident and treat women like pieces of meat?
A: Because it doesn't work too and it is beneath the dignity of the supreme gentlemen we are.

Q: Why do you guys focus so much on sex and women? It's not big deal.
A: Cope. If you are denied romance, you are inferior and socially stigmatized. It's more than "getting dick wet", having a romantic partner is essential for a man to be accepted in their local community.

Q: Why do you guys don't just pay a hooker or get a doll?
A: See previous question. Prostitutes and dolls are glorified masturbation in context of the incel issue and can't solve the problem.

From ForeverAlone:

Why don't you hire an escort?

What I find here is that for most users, it's not about sex. It's about finding someone you have a connection with and being able to trust someone that much to be able to be intimate with them. Paying for an escort, while not only expensive and risky, defeats the purpose of finding someone who wants you for you and will not solve the loneliness people feel here. Similarly, telling a girl to sleep with any willing guy also fits here. One night stands for anyone, payed for or not, do not fill the void for feeling loved.

 

[Swammerdami]

I don't know where the idea that Asian women are particularly docile and agreeable. Maybe it comes from old movies, but I worked with a bunch of guys who came to the US in the 1980s, from Viet Nam. They were all ethnic Chinese and were married to the same. They were absolutely terrified of doing something to displease their wife.

Seconded. Docile doesn't describe any Chinese woman I've known.

I think many ethnic stereotypes have merit, but it's hard to reduce personalities to a single adjective.

If "docile" means willing to compromise or acquiesce on unimportant matters, then yes, some Asian women tend to be "docile." But "unimportant" is an operative word here.

In rural Thailand, there's a tendency for the wife to be the person who holds the purse and is in charge of household finance.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Depending on a person’s situation, desperation to some degree or another can put two people together. Yes, if you go looking for Mrs. Right in the boondocks, you’re going to find her. Guaranteed.
In the mid nineties, my wife and I knew a couple who’s relationship did not seem to be based so much on love but need. Both Filipino, he was twice her age, a retired Navy Master Chief cook living off his pension. They took care of one another. I observed they were at least good friends.
Also consider a change in cultural environment will change the person. “She” will adapt. Living in the Philippines, I was once asked to stay out of the kitchen. If I wanted something, just ask. Some years later living in the US, that pretty much changed into “get up and get it yourself”. I’m taking a little license there to make a point.
She will likely be approaching the relationship from a completely different perspective in that it is her job to do what she can to help make you successful in your job. Now then if she comes to find you hate your job or cannot hold a job, she may look towards her own needs and that of any children and move on when possible.
I’ve come to find cultural differences tend to go much deeper than one would think. What is love to you is not necessarily love to your partner.

 

[Bronzeage]

I don't know where the idea that Asian women are particularly docile and agreeable. Maybe it comes from old movies, but I worked with a bunch of guys who came to the US in the 1980s, from Viet Nam. They were all ethnic Chinese and were married to the same. They were absolutely terrified of doing something to displease their wife.

Seconded. Docile doesn't describe any Chinese woman I've known.

I think many ethnic stereotypes have merit, but it's hard to reduce personalities to a single adjective.

If "docile" means willing to compromise or acquiesce on unimportant matters, then yes, some Asian women tend to be "docile." But "unimportant" is an operative word here.

In rural Thailand, there's a tendency for the wife to be the person who holds the purse and is in charge of household finance.

I don't think the origin of the "docile Asian woman" stereotype is difficult to understand. In western popular culture, whether literature or film, we get those other Asian stereotypes, the Geisha and the Warlord. The Geisha is docile and submissive because that's her job. Women are docile and submissive to a Warlord because everybody is.