January 6 Hearings Live

Apparently one piece of “evidence” Giuliani was bringing up was a poll watcher who wasn’t allowed within six feet of the counters. Hmm...

I was pretty concerned about a coup but I don't think it would last very long, and Trump would eventually get kicked out. No reason to think he would be able to sustain it.

"They wouldn't let us brandish firearms in the faces of the vote counters!"

Yeah, that's gonna get a whole lot of traction... with the trumpsucking droolers maybe.
Nonethless, we have idiots like Steve Scalise still showing up on FOX talking about how it took until December 15th to decide the 2000 election.
As if that was a comparable situation - as if someone already had over 270 electoral votes in 2000, before FL was decided, but SCOTUS took them away.
NOT.
This "coup" is as fake as everything else Trump has ever done.

There will be no coup. Trump will whine and complain that the election was stolen from him. There is no evidence of fraud. The claim is insane. And, I hate it when people on the left start believing in crazy conspiracy theories. The US hasn't gone off the deep end yet, and once the Trump presidency ends, there is hope.

Trump will probably never concede, but that just shows what a little whiney toddler he really is. There is no need for any politician to concede when they lose. It's simply the polite, tradition that's almost always done. I've read that people in the WH are already updating their resumes, and getting ready to leave. Even the worst of the Republicans know that Biden is going to be president on Jan 20th. Once the rest of Trump's crazy claims are thrown out by the courts, most likely very soon, we will begin to leave crazy behind us. There is no evidence that anything widespread impacted this election.

So, join me in saying.....BYE DON!

People can die in coups. Not a single person in his criminal family has the balls to take that chance.

hurtinbuckaroo said:

People can die in coups. Not a single person in his criminal family has the balls to take that chance.

Click to expand...

I'm more worried about the actions of his followers.

It's probably worth it for you all to check in to OAN, right-wing social media, etc and actually observe what is going on.

There are some 10 purported legal challenges including irregularities and fabricated fraud charges across several states in total.

OAN and right-wing social media are going nuts. OAN news is telling people not to complain, but instead, to go out and join protests. It's one step away from inciting violence.

The Right-Wing machine is not like what the Democrats have...you have to understand how deep it goes and how wide its scope is. Trump cultists are numerous. Very numerous. They are acting like localized person-to-person media projecting whatever propaganda they get to all their friends on social media or in blogs etc. Many cultists are fundamentalist Christians and so they are used to being lied to. Their religious leaders are lying to them because their religious leaders have gained power, clout, and money from the Trump Presidency...same with right wing media figures...and right wing politicians.

If Trump admits all this fraud talk is phony, then the backbone of the Republican Party, i.e. religious leaders have to admit they've been engaging in a mass propaganda effort...same with the whole machine they've been busy constructing. Breitbart has to admit it's a lie. OAN would lose all its viewership. That isn't what the Republican Party is...the Republican Party is a scam by its nature and so it has to continue at least in part.

Therefore, Trump is either going to concede but with the caveat he was cheated and the ball will still keep rolling so that Republicans can use election conspiracy as a plank to take over the House in two years OR they will keep at it.

bilby said:

SLD said:

Trump’s statement today:

We all know why Joe Biden is rushing to falsely pose as the winner, and why his media allies are trying so hard to help him: they don’t want the truth to be exposed. The simple fact is this election is far from over. Joe Biden has not been certified as the winner of any states, let alone any of the highly contested states headed for mandatory recounts, or states where our campaign has valid and legitimate legal challenges that could determine the ultimate victor. In Pennsylvania, for example, our legal observers were not permitted meaningful access to watch the counting process. Legal votes decide who is president, not the news media.

“Beginning Monday, our campaign will start prosecuting our case in court to ensure election laws are fully upheld and the rightful winner is seated. The American People are entitled to an honest election: that means counting all legal ballots, and not counting any illegal ballots. This is the only way to ensure the public has full confidence in our election. It remains shocking that the Biden campaign refuses to agree with this basic principle and wants ballots counted even if they are fraudulent, manufactured, or cast by ineligible or deceased voters. Only a party engaged in wrongdoing would unlawfully keep observers out of the count room – and then fight in court to block their access.

“So what is Biden hiding? I will not rest until the American People have the honest vote count they deserve and that Democracy demands.”

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He’s betting on the Supreme Court that he’s stacked. I don’t trust them either after Bush v. Gore. Kavanaugh especially. I don’t see how exactly they can reverse the results, but damn they will try.

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They won't get a chance to try, unless there's some hard evidence of widespread fraud or cheating by the Democratic campaign. And if the GOP had that evidence, they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

In the absence of any evidence, a legal challenge will be dismissed in the lower courts, and will never get to the Supremes.

The courts - at every level - aren't interested in unsubstantiated claims of unspecified unlawful activity. Sure, you can pay a lawyer to take a baseless brief and start proceedings in the lower courts; But without evidence, that brief will be laughed out of court in short order.

Trump's MO is to sue everyone and everything, whenever he doesn't get his way. But in this situation, all that will achieve is to make DJT poorer, and his lawyers richer. It's not going to achieve anything else.

Click to expand...

Trump's MO can achieve something else.
He can, and probably will, undercut the institutions that have kept America Great. He's trashing the confidence the American people have in our institutions and government. From elections to SCOTUS, Trump's MO is hire lawyers and lie.

And he'll manage to do a lot of that during the next few months. Along with selling state secrets and pardons and executive orders. It's not like Trump was an unknown when his TeaParty base dodged the democratic system and got him installed in the White House.

Apparently, Trump is what Christianity means nowadays.
And conservative. And Republican. Any lie that might benefit you is OK. By the standards of Trump's base.
Tom

I'm a bit leery of Betfair, where punters are selling their Biden tickets for 94 cents on the dollar. This despite that Betfair's rules are to settle based on "projections" without waiting to see if electors are faithful.

TomC said:

Trump's MO can achieve something else.
He can, and probably will, undercut the institutions that have kept America Great. He's trashing the confidence the American people have in our institutions and government. From elections to SCOTUS, Trump's MO is hire lawyers and lie.

And he'll manage to do a lot of that during the next few months. Along with selling state secrets and pardons and executive orders. It's not like Trump was an unknown when his TeaParty base dodged the democratic system and got him installed in the White House.

Apparently, Trump is what Christianity means nowadays.
And conservative. And Republican. Any lie that might benefit you is OK. By the standards of Trump's base.
Tom

Click to expand...

Trump and Kushner have surely acquired knowledge of government secrets worth billions to America's enemies. It would be sweet if China or some other country sets up a sting against the Trump family in an effort to improve their relationship with U.S. (Or, since 48% of U.S. voters support Trump treasons and crimes, would such a sting backfire?)

Swammerdami said:

I'm a bit leery of Betfair, where punters are selling their Biden tickets for 94 cents on the dollar. This despite that Betfair's rules are to settle based on "projections" without waiting to see if electors are faithful.

TomC said:

Trump's MO can achieve something else.
He can, and probably will, undercut the institutions that have kept America Great. He's trashing the confidence the American people have in our institutions and government. From elections to SCOTUS, Trump's MO is hire lawyers and lie.

And he'll manage to do a lot of that during the next few months. Along with selling state secrets and pardons and executive orders. It's not like Trump was an unknown when his TeaParty base dodged the democratic system and got him installed in the White House.

Apparently, Trump is what Christianity means nowadays.
And conservative. And Republican. Any lie that might benefit you is OK. By the standards of Trump's base.
Tom

Click to expand...

Trump and Kushner have surely acquired knowledge of government secrets worth billions to America's enemies. It would be sweet if China or some other country sets up a sting against the Trump family in an effort to improve their relationship with U.S. (Or, since 48% of U.S. voters support Trump treasons and crimes, would such a sting backfire?)

Click to expand...

Is this about unfair, or about the pending legal challenges?

Swammerdami said:

I'm a bit leery of Betfair, where punters are selling their Biden tickets for 94 cents on the dollar. This despite that Betfair's rules are to settle based on "projections" without waiting to see if electors are faithful.

TomC said:

Trump's MO can achieve something else.
He can, and probably will, undercut the institutions that have kept America Great. He's trashing the confidence the American people have in our institutions and government. From elections to SCOTUS, Trump's MO is hire lawyers and lie.

And he'll manage to do a lot of that during the next few months. Along with selling state secrets and pardons and executive orders. It's not like Trump was an unknown when his TeaParty base dodged the democratic system and got him installed in the White House.

Apparently, Trump is what Christianity means nowadays.
And conservative. And Republican. Any lie that might benefit you is OK. By the standards of Trump's base.
Tom

Click to expand...

Trump and Kushner have surely acquired knowledge of government secrets worth billions to America's enemies. It would be sweet if China or some other country sets up a sting against the Trump family in an effort to improve their relationship with U.S. (Or, since 48% of U.S. voters support Trump treasons and crimes, would such a sting backfire?)

Click to expand...

I'm sure Trump and Kushner will pull that off with all the finesse of a Saudi Hit Squad. Trump owes a lot of money and it's all secured with real estate. The people who hold the note don't really have a lot of use for the State secrets.

This is silliness. We've been conducting presidential elections for over 230 years. Over that time processes have been developed and tested against the shrewdest power-hungry people that exist in society. Also Framers were familiar with many issues involved in elections and they sought to frame elections so as to simplify and protect against fraudulent elections. If these don't dissuade you maybe this article will help you understand why mucking with states won't work. The elector lists have already been elected and passed to the electoral college.

UNITED STATES — In the United States, citizens do not directly elect the president. .Instead, states appoint a number of electors equal to the number of representatives they have in Congress to the electoral college, a system that was devised in the 18th century by the founders of the United States.

Nov. 3, 2020 • States must appoint their electors to the electoral college on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November under a federal law passed by Congress in 1845.

Dec. 8, 2020 — While states aren't legally required to certify their results by this date, if they so do, they can avoid Congress getting involved and resolving a potential dispute over which candidate won a particular state's electoral college votes.

Dec.14, 2020 — On the second Monday after the second Wednesday in December, electors convene in all 50 states and the District of Columbia to formally cast their votes for president and vice president. They then send certificates of their vote to their state's chief election official (in most but not all states, this is the secretary of state), the National Archives, and the current president of the U.S. Senate.

Jan. 6, 2021 at 1 p.m. — The sitting vice president, acting as the Senate president, presides over a joint session of Congress to read aloud the certificates cast by the electors representing all 50 states and D.C. in alphabetical order to finalize the vote count.
If no members of Congress object to any of the certificates in writing, the Senate president officially certifies the selection of the president-elect and vice president-elect.

​

Jan. 20, 2021 at noon — The president and vice president are formally inaugurated and sworn into office. The president is sworn in by the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and the vice president can be sworn in by another government official of their choosing.

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from: Faithless electors https://www.latimes.com/politics/st...s-electors-safe-harbor-date-electoral-college

After the November general election, each state appoints a slate of electors chosen by the political party of the candidate that won the state’s popular vote. On the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December — Dec. 14 this year — the states’ electors formally choose the president.

Electors generally have pledged to vote for the candidate who won the popular vote in their state. However, there have been 165 instances of “faithless” electors voting for someone else, most often to protest the system or because a candidate died. In 2016, Trump lost two electors and Clinton lost five, changing the electoral college outcome to 304 votes for Trump and 227 for Hillary Clinton from the expected 306 to 232 tally.

Most states have laws[FONT=var(--body-font)] on the books to either fine electors who go rogue, cancel their vote and/or replace them with someone else. States’ right to enforce electors’ votes was [/FONT]upheld by the Supreme Court[FONT=var(--body-font)], after faithless Hillary Clinton electors from [/FONT]Washington[FONT=var(--body-font)] state challenged the $1,000 fine the state leveled against them. (In a separate case, three Colorado electors who were replaced after they refused to vote for Clinton also sued and lost.)[/FONT]

[FONT=var(--body-font)]If a state tried to ignore the popular vote and choose its own slate of electors, it would be in violation of federal law and give Congress the option to override the state’s decision. According to the National Task Force on Election Crises, a group of experts on election law and voting rights, the Electoral Count Act of 1887 requires Congress to go along with a state’s electors if they were chosen based on laws established before the November election.

“A post-Election Day appointment of a state legislature’s preferred slate of electors would almost always deviate from the legal process for appointing electors established by the state prior to Election Day,” the task force said in a report. “Losing the safe harbor protection leaves Congress to decide which electors to count from a state, without mandatory deference to the preferences of either the state’s voters or legislature.”[/FONT]

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This transition is unique. U.S.A. has had bad Presidents and bad Administrations before, but never before were they full-time criminals and blatant traitors like this bunch.

The only saving grace is that these criminals are unusually stupid. They had smarter crooks on their team, but have cast them off due to Trump's own insecurities and incompetence.

I expect no intelligent coup from the Trump family, beyond spending millions of taxpayer money on lawyers and inciting some of the stupider Deplorables to violence. The big fear is that Trump, like a 3-year old that doesn't get its way, will spend his last weeks in office doing damage out of petulance. Let's hope that some of the adults still in high positions will back up key documents, since Trump and his fellow crooks will want to work the paper shredders full-time.

How will the future play out for the crime family? Biden won't want to sow disunity by encouraging states to imprison the criminals. (Trump will give his entire crime family permanent immunity from federal prosecution.) Will Trump and Ivanka go back to selling crappy made-in-China goods? The international Trump brand will be in ruins, but with millions of America's stupidest admiring this cretin we might expect Trump Guns, Trump Trailer Parks, ...? Jared, for one, will surely be eager to sell national security secrets to the highest bidder; let's hope that top intelligence officers were smart enough to limit the info they gave these criminals.

fromderinside said:

This is silliness. We've been conducting presidential elections for over 230 years. Over that time processes have been developed and tested against the shrewdest power-hungry people that exist in society. Also Framers were familiar with many issues involved in elections and they sought to frame elections so as to simplify and protect against fraudulent elections. If these don't dissuade you maybe this article will help you understand why mucking with states won't work. The elector lists have already been elected and passed to the electoral college.

Click to expand...

We've already been down this road once, 1876. You don't need "faithless electors" is either, you get some states to provide Republican Slates or if you simply contest enough of them to drop Biden below 270.

I agree, this is crazy talk. But so is people defending a President who suggested the experts look into injecting disinfectant to help cure a disease. The GOP has not been sending many positive signals. Their reaction to the election at this point is nearly as unprecedented as Trump's.

And it begins...

Holy shit. And we thought Fox would somehow finally do the right thing...

Fox News Hits a Dangerous New Low
The most-watched news network in America is choosing to mislead its viewers about the state of the election.

Swammerdami said:

This transition is unique. U.S.A. has had bad Presidents and bad Administrations before, but never before were they full-time criminals and blatant traitors like this bunch.
The only saving grace is that these criminals are unusually stupid.

Click to expand...

Stupidity and cowardice are the salvation of the Nation. Stupidity will play out as you describe. Trump will end up being trotted out by media moguls to attract the advertisers that feed them, and will be given "Apprentice-style" scripts to deliver in order to maintain the loyalty and purchasing power of the hundred million or so Stoopids who remain enthralled. He will be an enduring PITA to any administration that follows.

In the shorter term, the cowardice of those who remain in the orbit of Trump and his Crime Family will create a spectacle over the next ten weeks that will become a legendary example of disgrace. There will be rallies - one after another after another - exalting the President's performance with mind-numbing repetition of lies and distortions, all designed to placate the anger of the enraged toddler, distracting him from knocking all the products off the shelves in the Supermarket of executive power by handing him an endless series of shiny objects that are known to absorb his flickering attention.

The embarrassment is far from over. One can hope that as falsehood morphs further into fantasy, there will be some loss of support around the fringes. But as long as there are millions of easily manipulated fools hovering over the every word of the most easily manipulated fool ever to hold executive office, there will be those who eagerly capitalize on the adoring throngs.

Elixir said:

Swammerdami said:

This transition is unique. U.S.A. has had bad Presidents and bad Administrations before, but never before were they full-time criminals and blatant traitors like this bunch.
The only saving grace is that these criminals are unusually stupid.

Click to expand...

Stupidity and cowardice are the salvation of the Nation. Stupidity will play out as you describe. Trump will end up being trotted out by media moguls to attract the advertisers that feed them, and will be given "Apprentice-style" scripts to deliver in order to maintain the loyalty and purchasing power of the hundred million or so Stoopids who remain enthralled. He will be an enduring PITA to any administration that follows.

In the shorter term, the cowardice of those who remain in the orbit of Trump and his Crime Family will create a spectacle over the next ten weeks that will become a legendary example of disgrace. There will be rallies - one after another after another - exalting the President's performance with mind-numbing repetition of lies and distortions, all designed to placate the anger of the enraged toddler, distracting him from knocking all the products off the shelves in the Supermarket of executive power by handing him an endless series of shiny objects that are known to absorb his flickering attention.

The embarrassment is far from over. One can hope that as falsehood morphs further into fantasy, there will be some loss of support around the fringes. But as long as there are millions of easily manipulated fools hovering over the every word of the most easily manipulated fool ever to hold executive office, there will be those who eagerly capitalize on the adoring throngs.

Click to expand...

Yesterday, Fox News was referring to Biden as "President Elect" and prominent Republicans were calling for Trump to concede. Today, however, they have updated programming where they are now saying Trump won. Fox, Graham, they're now all saying he won and Biden lost. This is the coup. I've learned the hard way to not underestimate people with no conscience to mitigate the evil they will bring about. We're dealing with this for the long haul regardless of who is in the WH in January. Things are going to be much worse than we thought over the coming months and probably years.

Loren Pechtel said:

Swammerdami said:

I'm a bit leery of Betfair, where punters are selling their Biden tickets for 94 cents on the dollar. This despite that Betfair's rules are to settle based on "projections" without waiting to see if electors are faithful.

TomC said:

Trump's MO can achieve something else.
He can, and probably will, undercut the institutions that have kept America Great. He's trashing the confidence the American people have in our institutions and government. From elections to SCOTUS, Trump's MO is hire lawyers and lie.

And he'll manage to do a lot of that during the next few months. Along with selling state secrets and pardons and executive orders. It's not like Trump was an unknown when his TeaParty base dodged the democratic system and got him installed in the White House.

Apparently, Trump is what Christianity means nowadays.
And conservative. And Republican. Any lie that might benefit you is OK. By the standards of Trump's base.
Tom

Click to expand...

Trump and Kushner have surely acquired knowledge of government secrets worth billions to America's enemies. It would be sweet if China or some other country sets up a sting against the Trump family in an effort to improve their relationship with U.S. (Or, since 48% of U.S. voters support Trump treasons and crimes, would such a sting backfire?)

Click to expand...

Is this about unfair, or about the pending legal challenges?

Click to expand...

I don't understand your question.
We were both discussing Trump's ability to cause huge and long term damage to USA interests, if he remains true to form.

The legal challenges are ridiculous on the face. State legislatures can send anybody they want to the EC. They don't really have to hold elections at all. If the Republican dominated legislature of Pennsylvania decides to send 20 votes for Biden to the EC, SCOTUS doesn't have any reason to interfere.
Tom

TomC said:

The legal challenges are ridiculous on the face. State legislatures can send anybody they want to the EC. They don't really have to hold elections at all. If the Republican dominated legislature of Pennsylvania decides to send 20 votes for Biden to the EC, SCOTUS doesn't have any reason to interfere.
Tom

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We can find out how "originalist" the originalists are...

TomC said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Is this about unfair, or about the pending legal challenges?

Click to expand...

I don't understand your question.
We were both discussing Trump's ability to cause huge and long term damage to USA interests, if he remains true to form.

The legal challenges are ridiculous on the face. State legislatures can send anybody they want to the EC. They don't really have to hold elections at all. If the Republican dominated legislature of Pennsylvania decides to send 20 votes for Biden to the EC, SCOTUS doesn't have any reason to interfere.
Tom

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I'm asking if they aren't considering it settled because of all the lawsuits His Flatulence is filing.

Yes, they're garbage, but that doesn't mean it's sure the Supreme Court won't give it to him anyway.