A God without compelling evidence?

[excreationist]

Well in this thread my idea of a God is one that people aren't sure exist (see the Futurama quote). Based on Epicurus' trilemma this God could be good but just not all powerful. If he was all powerful and was all good it would be obvious he existed.

As I keep pointing out, god toying with us is BAD! Like, fucked up on a level Lovecraft wrote about.

But due to God not being obvious, many people don't even think God exists, let alone think that God is toying with them.

If you think a couple of decades of that is BAD what about Christians that believe that most people are going to hell to suffer forever and that they totally deserve it and that God is still 100% loving?

Here is an excerpt of a sermon of a preacher saying that eternal punishment means God is "great":



BTW perhaps we allowed ourselves to enter a world with suffering but just forgot our original identity... like Morty playing the "Roy" game or Alan Watts talking about a dream thought experiment.

Mostly because ethical action relies on a symmetry, and symmetry relies on a balance of power, opportunity, and understanding. Literally no consent can exist across that boundary. It is essentially equal to pedophilia, but for literally every act and decision.

There's this Ken Keyes quote:

"...As the watcher of the screen, you are perfect. The screen may be projecting a horrendous movie that is showing all kinds of pain and suffering - on the screen. Or the screen may reflect a happy movie that shows a beautiful sunset, a delightful sexual experience, or an enjoyable meal. But the essential you is the pure awareness that just watches the stuff go by on the screen of your life. Behind what you think you are - YOU ARE..."

​

BTW films and video games that aren't made for small children can be very dark... I guess it adds drama...

 

[Jarhyn]

But due to God not being obvious, many people don't even think God exists, let alone think that God is toying with them.

If you think a couple of decades of that is BAD what about Christians that believe that most people are going to hell to suffer forever and that they totally deserve it and that God is still 100% loving?

Here is an excerpt of a sermon of a preacher saying that eternal punishment means God is "great":



BTW perhaps we allowed ourselves to enter a world with suffering but just forgot our original identity... like Morty playing the "Roy" game or Alan Watts talking about a dream thought experiment.

Mostly because ethical action relies on a symmetry, and symmetry relies on a balance of power, opportunity, and understanding. Literally no consent can exist across that boundary. It is essentially equal to pedophilia, but for literally every act and decision.

There's this Ken Keyes quote:

"...As the watcher of the screen, you are perfect. The screen may be projecting a horrendous movie that is showing all kinds of pain and suffering - on the screen. Or the screen may reflect a happy movie that shows a beautiful sunset, a delightful sexual experience, or an enjoyable meal. But the essential you is the pure awareness that just watches the stuff go by on the screen of your life. Behind what you think you are - YOU ARE..."

​

BTW films and video games that aren't made for small children can be very dark... I guess it adds drama...

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

I don't give a shit about what Christians think or believe. It's already nonsense because they don't base their beliefs on any word of any possible god but rather on the words of men claiming they speak for god without showing the original text they translated from: they fail to show their work and observations that lead to conclusions.

 

[excreationist]

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

Does that have something to do with the idea that God doesn't want to be obvious to people?

I don't give a shit about what Christians think or believe. It's already nonsense because they don't base their beliefs on any word of any possible god but rather on the words of men claiming they speak for god without showing the original text they translated from: they fail to show their work and observations that lead to conclusions.

You said what I think or believe about God is BAD and "fucked up on a level Lovecraft wrote about". My point is that it could be MUCH worse (to believe in hell for most and think that is perfectly loving). Note that this forum is "Existence of God" so it is partly about Christians.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

Does that have something to do with the idea that God doesn't want to be obvious to people?

Should i be jealous of my wife's other lover if i have absolutely no reason to think he exists?
Should i change my attitude, behavior towards her for, quite literally, no reason at all?
Or should i act on the possibility that an extramarital partner COULD exist, though he (or she) and my wife are sufficiently skilled to accomplish the affair without my ever detecting it?

If so, .... Why? What possible reason would i have to adopt this belief on the face of zero evidence?

 

[Jarhyn]

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

Does that have something to do with the idea that God doesn't want to be obvious to people?

I don't give a shit about what Christians think or believe. It's already nonsense because they don't base their beliefs on any word of any possible god but rather on the words of men claiming they speak for god without showing the original text they translated from: they fail to show their work and observations that lead to conclusions.

You said what I think or believe about God is BAD and "fucked up on a level Lovecraft wrote about". My point is that it could be MUCH worse (to believe in hell for most and think that is perfectly loving). Note that this forum is "Existence of God" so it is partly about Christians.

Oh, things can always get more fucked up. My point is that it was already beyond the pale of fuckedupness.

 

[Jarhyn]

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

Does that have something to do with the idea that God doesn't want to be obvious to people?

Should i be jealous of my wife's other lover if i have absolutely no reason to think he exists?
Should i change my attitude, behavior towards her for, quite literally, no reason at all?
Or should i act on the possibility that an extramarital partner COULD exist, though he (or she) and my wife are sufficiently skilled to accomplish the affair without my ever detecting it?

If so, .... Why? What possible reason would i have to adopt this belief on the face of zero evidence?

Nice corellaries. I guess my point is that the other side not knowing does not make it less shitty to do, necessarily. And assuming it without evidence also yields equally shitty results.

Interference by God in that which is is thusly BAD, for everyone.

 

[DBT]

If a man and another man are dating, and one has a torrid secret affair that the other never finds out or suspects... Has the other partner cheated? Has the other partner violated the first?

Does that have something to do with the idea that God doesn't want to be obvious to people?

I don't give a shit about what Christians think or believe. It's already nonsense because they don't base their beliefs on any word of any possible god but rather on the words of men claiming they speak for god without showing the original text they translated from: they fail to show their work and observations that lead to conclusions.

You said what I think or believe about God is BAD and "fucked up on a level Lovecraft wrote about". My point is that it could be MUCH worse (to believe in hell for most and think that is perfectly loving). Note that this forum is "Existence of God" so it is partly about Christians.

The bible game appears to be, accept Jesus as your saviour, believe this or face the consequences: eternal damnation.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And assuming it without evidence also yields equally shitty results.

Thst's where i thought you were going. If i spent much time convincing myself to be jealous of an untouchable phantom, people would think me crazy
But same effort to believe in an untouchable phantom? Is this to be lauded?

 

[Wiploc]

That something is possible doesn't mean that this is in fact how the world works. As there's no way to test the Simulation hypothesis, it remains an interesting idea, a remote possibility. An extremely remote possibility.

If we can't test the hypothesis, why would you call the possibility "remote"?

Solipsism is untestable--its truth or falsity would have no consequences--which makes it irrelevant or insignificant or (my favorite) boring. It doesn't make the possibility remote.

 

[DBT]

That something is possible doesn't mean that this is in fact how the world works. As there's no way to test the Simulation hypothesis, it remains an interesting idea, a remote possibility. An extremely remote possibility.

If we can't test the hypothesis, why would you call the possibility "remote"?

Solipsism is untestable--its truth or falsity would have no consequences--which makes it irrelevant or insignificant or (my favorite) boring. It doesn't make the possibility remote.

Remote because there is no real evidence for it. The evidence we have appears to support a 13.5 billion year old universe that began in a BB, inflation, evolved stars, gallaxies, planets, life on Earth, etc, a natural universe of matter/energy as the top contender.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I am related to a Young Earth Creationist. Guess what we don't talk about, ever? Guess what we do talk about: Grandma's cookies and the time we went crabbing in the Chesapeake in 1964.

 

[OLDMAN]

If we are in a computer simulation or if we are characters in a dream sequence, or the product of a god with a plan....then nothing we do matters. Further more, the abiltiy to reason would not have evolved. The first and primary use of reasoning is for survival, we do not need to survive if we are brains in a vat.
Also, if everything is pre-planed then we could just as easily cross a busy highway blindfolded as using reason. (because when god decides your times up, it's up) So the only epistemology that allows for reason to evolve as a survival tool is one where chance can be altered by learning from experience and applying reason towards surviving.
Because we can reason our survival we would do well in a world just like the one we see before us.

Every thing that has happened in any simulation I have ever run "matters".

You are showing your namesake if you fail to understand how and why intelligence would evolve from the mechanics of what this is, regardless of what back end implements it. Why would you possibly think it would matter to whether we could exist inside any such implementation?

Your argument dies there. It can matter to outside just as much as it does not matter to us why we are here.

I meant that there is nothing we can do that matters in our ability to control the outcome of said situation.

 

[excreationist]

....Oh, things can always get more fucked up. My point is that it was already beyond the pale of fuckedupness.

What is worse - there being an intelligent force that never intervenes so that people are more likely to think they're alone, or one that does and the person suspects there is an intelligent force out there and they feel a sense of comfort?

Note that I've been very depressed and suicidal from time to time as an atheist. While gassing myself in a car I put on the radio and both of the songs I heard seemed highly significant...
https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...nces-that-suggest-an-intelligent-force-exists
Note I still think that it seems to be a coincidence... if it hadn't happened I would be dead so therefore it was just a coincidental event that led to me surviving. (like the anthropic principle?)
I actually like not being sure whether an intelligent force exists or not...
Surely most people literally suffering forever and ever is infinitely worse than me not being sure that the intelligent force exists...
BTW I think it is better to just believe that an intelligent force exists than to believe that I got a message from it that is in fact untrue (which is highly likely for people who believe they got a divine message)

 

[excreationist]

....The bible game appears to be, accept Jesus as your saviour, believe this or face the consequences: eternal damnation.

That is the traditional church view but I think pretty much all of the Bible doesn't insist that humans will burn in Hell forever... though angels (that hell was made for) are immortal beings....
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
Though I don't believe in hell...

 

[bilby]

....The bible game appears to be, accept Jesus as your saviour, believe this or face the consequences: eternal damnation.

That is the traditional church view but I think pretty much all of the Bible doesn't insist that humans will burn in Hell forever... though angels (that hell was made for) are immortal beings....
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
Though I don't believe in hell...

I do. It's a place of misery and torment, where to spend just a few moments seems like an eternity of suffering. It's denizens are twisted, cruel, and ugly, and they take delight in causing suffering to those who arrive there. You can get there via the M62, or from North Lincolnshire via the Humber Bridge.

Oh, wait. You said 'Hell'. Sorry, I thought we were talking about Hull.

 

[DBT]

....The bible game appears to be, accept Jesus as your saviour, believe this or face the consequences: eternal damnation.

That is the traditional church view but I think pretty much all of the Bible doesn't insist that humans will burn in Hell forever... though angels (that hell was made for) are immortal beings....
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
Though I don't believe in hell...

It doesn't matter of what you believe, it's just a question of what is described in the bible (which of course doesn't make it true).

Eternal damnation and torment is described in the bible;

''When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46


''And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'' Daniel 12:1-2

''It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” - Mark 9:42-48

 

[excreationist]

It doesn't matter of what you believe,

Well I was discussing what the Bible says about hell and wanted other people to know that I don't actually believe in hell.

it's just a question of what is described in the bible (which of course doesn't make it true).

It looks like you didn't check out the link I mentioned:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

It already has counter-arguments for all of the passages you mentioned. If you like you can check out the counter-arguments for yourself and also the counter-arguments for many other passages.

There are actually about 80 related passages and these were investigated by Edward Fudge... this link jumps to a relevant part in his biographical movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4832&v=W66HP-3HO_A

BTW I just bought the movie again then created an excerpt and uploaded it on YouTube. It was flagged for copyright violations and I didn't have a valid reason to share it. Then I did another search to see if that excerpt is already on YouTube then I saw that the entire movie is on there now... so that's better than I assumed - people can watch the movie for free rather than doing what I did and buying the movie on its site.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Eternal_Hell_in_Christian_history

 

[DBT]

It doesn't matter of what you believe,

Well I was discussing what the Bible says about hell and wanted other people to know that I don't actually believe in hell.

it's just a question of what is described in the bible (which of course doesn't make it true).

It looks like you didn't check out the link I mentioned:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

It already has counter-arguments for all of the passages you mentioned. If you like you can check out the counter-arguments for yourself and also the counter-arguments for many other passages.

There are actually about 80 related passages and these were investigated by Edward Fudge... this link jumps to a relevant part in his biographical movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4832&v=W66HP-3HO_A

BTW I just bought the movie again then created an excerpt and uploaded it on YouTube. It was flagged for copyright violations and I didn't have a valid reason to share it. Then I did another search to see if that excerpt is already on YouTube then I saw that the entire movie is on there now... so that's better than I assumed - people can watch the movie for free rather than doing what I did and buying the movie on its site.

Your 'Jewish not Greek' article gives a perspective on the issue, but that doesn't change what is written in the bible, or what the verses I quoted say on eternal damnation. The problem with the bible is that it allows different interpretations, each interpretation based on cherry picking.

 

[Tigers!]

I do. It's a place of misery and torment, where to spend just a few moments seems like an eternity of suffering. It's denizens are twisted, cruel, and ugly, and they take delight in causing suffering to those who arrive there. You can get there via the M62, or from North Lincolnshire via the Humber Bridge.

Oh, wait. You said 'Hell'. Sorry, I thought we were talking about Hull.

Perhaps you got confused between Hull and here?

 

[excreationist]

Your 'Jewish not Greek' article gives a perspective on the issue, but that doesn't change what is written in the bible, or what the verses I quoted say on eternal damnation. The problem with the bible is that it allows different interpretations, each interpretation based on cherry picking.

Please also check out the 3 minute excerpt here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4832&v=W66HP-3HO_A

And this link I added later:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Eternal_Hell_in_Christian_history

What they're saying about church history seems accurate... and so the interpretation you're so fond of was based on later church tradition... based on the Greek idea of an immortal soul rather than starting with the Bible...