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Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
So, First Nations are burning down churches in Canada, and I can't find a reason to not condone the violence.
article said:
Canadian authorities are investigating multiple fires that destroyed four Catholic churches on Indigenous land in the past week.

They are the latest in a string of recent events affecting the country's Indigenous communities. The churches were destroyed as Canada confronts its history of systemic abuse of Indigenous communities with the recent discoveries of hundreds of human remains at the sites of two former boarding schools, which were operated by Catholic religious groups.

In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

The fires have occurred late, and I'm not aware of any injuries. The dehumanizing treatment of aboriginal populations at these schools, where children were sent after being torn from their homes, in the US and Canada in the 19th and 20th centuries was reprehensible. And there is little the Catholic Church can do to make it right because the whole point was to dehumanize these people and make them reborn to Christianity. That was what they thought was a noble goal.

I think violence is wrong, burning down buildings is wrong, and the Catholic Church has it coming from a population segment that they did so much wrong to, and appear content on remaining silent in response and action.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)
 

Metaphor

Well-known member
In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

It does not make "one" think any such thing, it makes you think that.
 

laughing dog

Well-known member
In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

It does not make "one" think any such thing, it makes you think that.
Not just JH. I strongly suspect the arsonist(s) think it as well.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)

They murdered children either through neglect or abuse. That was the mission statement. The children were stolen from their families and murdered. Then buried like inconvenient refuse.

Some lucky ones were just tortured by systemic neglect and abuse.
 

laughing dog

Well-known member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)

They murdered children either through neglect or abuse. That was the mission statement. The children were stolen from their families and murdered. Then buried like inconvenient refuse.

Some lucky ones were just tortured by systemic neglect and abuse.
Which is why a “meh” or “it’s hard to feel bad” is an understandable reaction.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)

The OP states that these churches are on indigenbous land. I feel that removing symbols of the trauma is probably a healthy reaction.
 

J842P

Well-known member
So, First Nations are burning down churches in Canada, and I can't find a reason to not condone the violence.
article said:
Canadian authorities are investigating multiple fires that destroyed four Catholic churches on Indigenous land in the past week.

They are the latest in a string of recent events affecting the country's Indigenous communities. The churches were destroyed as Canada confronts its history of systemic abuse of Indigenous communities with the recent discoveries of hundreds of human remains at the sites of two former boarding schools, which were operated by Catholic religious groups.

In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

The fires have occurred late, and I'm not aware of any injuries. The dehumanizing treatment of aboriginal populations at these schools, where children were sent after being torn from their homes, in the US and Canada in the 19th and 20th centuries was reprehensible. And there is little the Catholic Church can do to make it right because the whole point was to dehumanize these people and make them reborn to Christianity. That was what they thought was a noble goal.

I think violence is wrong, burning down buildings is wrong, and the Catholic Church has it coming from a population segment that they did so much wrong to, and appear content on remaining silent in response and action.
It was one of the great crimes of the 19th and 20th century.

You know the Spanish were pretty damn bad. But in South America, you could at least argue the end result was ethnic syncretism, not ethnic cleansing like in North America.
 

untermensche

Well-known member
Burning a church is a tactic.

If it accomplishes something it is a good tactic.

It is accomplishes nothing it is violent revenge.

The morality of tactics must be considered also.
 

Toni

Well-known member
In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

It does not make "one" think any such thing, it makes you think that.

Ah, yes. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him think.
 

Metaphor

Well-known member
In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

It does not make "one" think any such thing, it makes you think that.

Ah, yes. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him think.

Yes, surprisingly not everyone shares your impulses for violent, extra-judicial vengeance.
 

Toni

Well-known member
Ah, yes. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him think.

Yes, surprisingly not everyone shares your impulses for violent, extra-judicial vengeance.

True. Those hundreds of children are not going to get any more dead than they are now.

It's not like the plight of children being abused by the church is known to move the church to acknowledge such abuse, much less apologize, make amends, change.

I mean, what would move the church to do anything about its long history of abusing and even killing children?

Because that would cost the church money.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Burning a few churches isn't going to change anything.

It will take more than just a few to get the attention of the Vatican.

A global hostile occupying force, that doesn't blink at genocide in pursuit of their agenda, should eventually see violent revolt. It's embarrassing that it's taken so long.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Burning a church is a tactic.
It is not a "tactic", it is arson. And the perps need to be brought to justice.

The perps ARE BEING brought to justice. If you don't understand that the Catholic Church are the perps, then you haven't been paying attention.

Justice isn't the same thing as obedience, lawfulness, or compliance.

Right wing Americans don't have clue one what justice and freedom even mean, do they?
 

TV and credit cards

Well-known member
Take the time to walk a mile in their moccasins.

Gladly, if I also get to receive all the casino moneys as well as other benefits and preferential treatment Indians receive today.
I mean, all that is worth walking a mile in some sandals.

You want to be paid to empathize with another’s distress and anger?
Or is it your position that financial success today is recompense for the attempts at cultural extermination of yesterday?
 

Metaphor

Well-known member
I mean, what would move the church to do anything about its long history of abusing and even killing children?

I don't know. But, I don't think you can wring a sincere apology from someone by burning their house down.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
Take the time to walk a mile in their moccasins.
Gladly, if I also get to receive all the casino moneys as well as other benefits and preferential treatment Indians receive today.
I mean, all that is worth walking a mile in some sandals.
Okay, go for it. Live up that 25% poverty rate.
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)
The OP states that these churches are on indigenbous land. I feel that removing symbols of the trauma is probably a healthy reaction.
It is removing a tumor, no less.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
Burning a few churches isn't going to change anything.
No, it won't. Nor would burning the Vatican down. The Catholic Church is the nation's oldest bureaucracy and moves with a slightly faster pace than a glacier. As such, the Catholic Church to me is the perfect example of an entity that needs to be broken up into Baby Churches. The evil they concocted to save face with the repeated molestation of children across the globe and the recent uncoverings of the mass graves that were suspected of existing is proof that they can't function as a viable institution. The worst part about the mass indigenous graves is the utter lack of shock that they exist.

No harm should come to anyone, but those churches are disease where they stand near them. The irony of Catholic Churches still requiring confessions to be told to them, yet another strand of power control. Who does the Catholic Church confess to? I mean other than the authorities?
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I feel that removing symbols of the trauma is probably a healthy reaction.

Through arson?

I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

Sounds like these indigenous folks are doing the same. There’s a church on their land that isn’t serving the purpose.
 

J842P

Well-known member
Burning a few churches isn't going to change anything.
No, it won't. Nor would burning the Vatican down. The Catholic Church is the nation's oldest bureaucracy and moves with a slightly faster pace than a glacier. As such, the Catholic Church to me is the perfect example of an entity that needs to be broken up into Baby Churches. The evil they concocted to save face with the repeated molestation of children across the globe and the recent uncoverings of the mass graves that were suspected of existing is proof that they can't function as a viable institution. The worst part about the mass indigenous graves is the utter lack of shock that they exist.

No harm should come to anyone, but those churches are disease where they stand near them. The irony of Catholic Churches still requiring confessions to be told to them, yet another strand of power control. Who does the Catholic Church confess to? I mean other than the authorities?

Yeah, I mean, small churches do this as well.
 

TomC

Well-known member
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

How unfortunate.

Old weathered wood is quite valuable to the right people. I know a bunch of them in the art and framing world. We aren't interested in structural strength, we're interested in the looks and patina. You might have both kept a few tons of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and gotten a check. :)
Tom
 

Gospel

Aethiopian
I recall a thread somewhere where I said the destruction of property is wrong no matter who does it or why. I need to add this as an exception.


I mean, what would move the church to do anything about its long history of abusing and even killing children?

I don't know. But, I don't think you can wring a sincere apology from someone by burning their house down.

Something tells me the people who burned the church down don't care for an apology.
 

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.
 

Gospel

Aethiopian
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.

So you see no connection between the entity (in this case the Church) & the people who committed those wrongs using the entity but you do somehow manage to see a connection between the fire and the people who started it. Interesting.
 

TomC

Well-known member
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.

So you see no connection between the entity (in this case the Church) & the people who committed those wrongs using the entity but you do somehow manage to see a connection between the fire and the people who started it. Interesting.

I don't see that distinction at all difficult to make. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, not for those of their ancestors or people with the same skin color.

Tom
 

Gospel

Aethiopian
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.

So you see no connection between the entity (in this case the Church) & the people who committed those wrongs using the entity but you do somehow manage to see a connection between the fire and the people who started it. Interesting.

I don't see that distinction at all difficult to make. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, not for those of their ancestors or people with the same skin color.

Tom

The entity got burned not people.
 

TV and credit cards

Well-known member
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

How unfortunate.


Old weathered wood is quite valuable to the right people. I know a bunch of them in the art and framing world. We aren't interested in structural strength, we're interested in the looks and patina. You might have both kept a few tons of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and gotten a check. :)
Tom

Reclaimed framing timbers, especially the old hand hewn ones with the markings from the broadaxe or adze used. Those are worth a buck or two.
 

laughing dog

Well-known member
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.
I don't see any justification - just an understandable lack of outrage.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
As a very general comment... I really don't understand the rationalization and justification for current-day, extra-judicial, violent, retaliation against current-day entities... for wrongs done to one's ancestors by that entity's ancestors.
They murdered children. They stole them from their families and through neglect and abuse they caused the deaths of tens of thousands of aboriginal children... and when a pair of unmarked mass graves finds an estimate 1000 children and it is followed up by utter silence... there will be rage. It is known more graves will be found. Cementing pretty much an evil legacy, which the Church continues to fail to reconcile. And their silence is deafening.

The Catholic Churches on aboriginal land are tumors. The only reason for them to remain would be as reminders of the evils. These people are suffering from the direct neglect of the Catholic Church today, so to pass this off as some sort of, 'well it was only back in the day' is wholly disingenuous.
 

Metaphor

Well-known member
I recall a thread somewhere where I said the destruction of property is wrong no matter who does it or why. I need to add this as an exception.


I mean, what would move the church to do anything about its long history of abusing and even killing children?

I don't know. But, I don't think you can wring a sincere apology from someone by burning their house down.

Something tells me the people who burned the church down don't care for an apology.

I don't think so either, but Jimmy Higgins opened the thread talking about the church's silence being a suitable reason for vengeance.
 

TomC

Well-known member
The OP doesn't include a link, so I'll ask.

Were these houses of worship, or abandoned symbols of an ugly past?

If people were going there to do their thing, whatever I might think about that, it's violent vandalism. If the buildings were empty symbols of the bad old days, that's completely different.
Tom
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)

They murdered children either through neglect or abuse. That was the mission statement. The children were stolen from their families and murdered. Then buried like inconvenient refuse.

Some lucky ones were just tortured by systemic neglect and abuse.

The point is that this is a past action, not an ongoing action. It should be handled by the courts.

Burning them now is revenge, not resistance.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
I feel that removing symbols of the trauma is probably a healthy reaction.

Through arson?

I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

Sounds like these indigenous folks are doing the same. There’s a church on their land that isn’t serving the purpose.

1) You burned up materials that probably were valuable.

2) Quite illegal here.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Well-known member
While the Church's conduct is atrocious I don't see how simply being silent about it now warrants burning down churches. (Now, if the problem were ongoing that would be another matter.)

They murdered children either through neglect or abuse. That was the mission statement. The children were stolen from their families and murdered. Then buried like inconvenient refuse.

Some lucky ones were just tortured by systemic neglect and abuse.

The point is that this is a past action, not an ongoing action. It should be handled by the courts.

Burning them now is revenge, not resistance.

I’d go with vengeance. If people are caught, they should be prosecuted. I hope they aren’t caught.

Also, another unmarked grave (~200 bodies) at another Aboriginal school was found.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

Sounds like these indigenous folks are doing the same. There’s a church on their land that isn’t serving the purpose.

1) You burned up materials that probably were valuable.

2) Quite illegal here.

I've seen barns burned here intentionally.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

Sounds like these indigenous folks are doing the same. There’s a church on their land that isn’t serving the purpose.

1) You burned up materials that probably were valuable.

2) Quite illegal here.

I've seen barns burned here intentionally.

Round these parts you don't burn nuthin' this time of year. Even dead of winter with two feet of snow on the ground, you don't burn anything more than a cooking fire without getting the fire department out to see what you want to burn and where you want to burn it. They're good at assessing conditions, but still, ditch fires, slash piles etc. get out of control every year.

Anyhow I'm with Jimmy - hope they don't get caught.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

How unfortunate.

Old weathered wood is quite valuable to the right people. I know a bunch of them in the art and framing world. We aren't interested in structural strength, we're interested in the looks and patina. You might have both kept a few tons of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and gotten a check. :)
Tom


PM me. I have another barn. This one is much smaller, but it’s time to go. I got a guy coming to disassemble it and take the inside wood for a camp deck (wood is expensive right now), but the patinaed outer shell is up for grabs - or a fire. The wood from this one would about fill a pickup truck if anyone wants it.



A person could drive around town here and fill a semi flatbed with nice old weathered barnboards if they were enterprising.




That last barn was 25 years ago
 

barbos

Well-known member
PM me. I have another barn. This one is much smaller, but it’s time to go. I got a guy coming to disassemble it and take the inside wood for a camp deck (wood is expensive right now), but the patinaed outer shell is up for grabs - or a fire. The wood from this one would about fill a pickup truck if anyone wants it.



A person could drive around town here and fill a semi flatbed with nice old weathered barnboards if they were enterprising.
Looks great, can I rent it?
:D
 

Patooka

Well-known member
The OP doesn't include a link, so I'll ask.

Were these houses of worship, or abandoned symbols of an ugly past?

If people were going there to do their thing, whatever I might think about that, it's violent vandalism. If the buildings were empty symbols of the bad old days, that's completely different.
Tom

At least 4 Catholic churches were destroyed on Indigenous land in a week

Canadian authorities are investigating multiple fires that destroyed four Catholic churches on Indigenous land in the past week.

They are the latest in a string of recent events affecting the country's Indigenous communities. The churches were destroyed as Canada confronts its history of systemic abuse of Indigenous communities with the recent discoveries of hundreds of human remains at the sites of two former boarding schools, which were operated by Catholic religious groups.

These schools still operated until 1996, apparently. It would require a metric fuckton of obtuse intellectual dishonesty to not think some indigenous Canadians didn't experience some form of abuse in those schools. This is what happens when a powerful oragnisation spend decades covering up horrific shit and then paying only lips service when exposed. I'm not endorsing this, but you'd better fucking believe I won't be outraged or express sympathy towards the Catholic Church either. Those two stances don't have to be mutually exclusive.
 

Toni

Well-known member
I had an old barn on my land that I didn’t want any more. I burned it down. Problem?

In my town, yiu just call the fire department and say, I’m going to burn down this barn that’s bothering me, we’re lighting it off at 6:00pm. We had friends over. It burned for 3 days (it was a big barn)

Sounds like these indigenous folks are doing the same. There’s a church on their land that isn’t serving the purpose.

1) You burned up materials that probably were valuable.

2) Quite illegal here.

1. Possibly but honestly, I trust Rhea's judgment about whether there were any salvageable materials in the barn. She's pretty environmentally conscious and seems to care about reusing materials, etc.
2. Rhea doesn't live in a desert and burned the barn with her fire department's ok.
 

Toni

Well-known member
Burning a church is a tactic.

If it accomplishes something it is a good tactic.

It is accomplishes nothing it is violent revenge.

Is this a Stalin quote?

You think anything good comes from burning a church for this now?

It is a rational opinion.

Normally, I would be very much against burning down buildings, especially to make a point.

But the Church's silence has been deafening with regards to the deaths of children in their care while at the same time, condemning those who are not sufficiently 'pro-life.'

I can well understand the deep anger, and frustration which perhaps motivated those who burned down these churches. Perhaps it will light a fire under the Catholic Church to actually...do something to indicate their deep shame and regret over the deaths of these children. And then, perhaps, the Church could consider also expressing their deep shame and regret over the kidnapping of thousands of children from their families in the name of making them good Christian servants, emphasis on the first and last, of course.
 

Toni

Well-known member
In general, violence begets violence, but the near silence from the Vatican regarding the open secret about what happened at Aboriginal schools run by the Catholic Church, in light of the discovery of unmarked graves and mass graves really makes one think that a pound of metaphorical flesh is called for.

It does not make "one" think any such thing, it makes you think that.

I think it makes a lot of people of conscious, people who value the lives of children and persons of color and Indigenous people think that perhaps, this will get the attention of the Church who remains silent and apparently unrepentant over the deaths of these innocent children, whose lives, the Church taught, were oh, so valuable right up until they exited their mother's wombs.
 
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