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Billionaires Blast off

Ah, yes. Everything that's not the exact system approved by twenty-first century libertarian leaning small-government Americans, is Marxist-Leninism as practiced by Joe Stalin in the 1930s.

If the jackboot fits, wear it!

It's amazing how easy everything becomes when you deliberately avoid learning about anything other than devotion to the current system, with the only alternative being damnation.

You are the one talking about how all money belongs to the government and how people should not be allowed to own more than you think proper.
The only major difference between you and Comrade Kaprugina is where you want to draw the line.

I keep forgetting that US economics is just US Christianity with a funny hat.
You mean, without a funny hat?

popefunnyhats.jpg
 
If the jackboot fits, wear it!



You are the one talking about how all money belongs to the government and how people should not be allowed to own more than you think proper.
The only major difference between you and Comrade Kaprugina is where you want to draw the line.
Which is a non-trivial difference, though you appear unable to grasp it.

There are two insane extremes - Libertarian capitalism where taxes are considered theft; And Leveller communism in which any and all variation in wealth is considered criminal.

Neither is rational; Between the two lies a wide spectrum of possible degrees of acceptance of redistribution of wealth.

Clearly a profit incentive is useful. Equally clearly, no individual has done so much more than the average as to deserve four or five, much less six orders of magnitude more than any ordinary working person.

The only thing such vast wealth achieves is power, and power in a democracy shouldn't be something a person can buy and sell.

Of course, it's not only acceptable but practically necessary in an aristocracy. But I personally see a lot of major problems with aristocracy, and would expect that Americans, in particular, should feel the same - if you wanted to be ruled by unelected rich dudes, you could have skipped the whole Revolutionary War thing and stuck with the wealthy (and apparently therefore worthy) British monarchs.
I keep forgetting that US economics is just US Christianity with a funny hat.
You mean, without a funny hat?

View attachment 34507

Yeah, I nearly edited that change in as soon as I wrote it. :)
 
Does anyone else find themselves secretly hoping that one of them explodes?

That’s wrong I know, but what’s the point of these trips? They aren’t advancing science. They’re just going a multi million dollar thrill ride.


I'm going to go back to something I said in another part of the board:


How many people are lobbying their elected representatives to put more people into space? How many are signing petitions and forming community groups to say "we want space tourism now!"? Elected officials and politicians are clamoring to get more views and hits on social media for outrageous things they say and do, while Branson's brief flight got more than twice the hits (if you're counting official channels) as NASA's far more groundbreaking helicopter flight on Mars.

I get it. When I was watching the wrap-up of the Virgin Galactic flight, it frustrated me to no end that the featured shot was of Branson walking alone away from his ship to swelling music as he "returned to Earth" triumphantly. And the pilots who became astronauts that day, and the other crew members who went into space with him were nowhere in the shot. It was absolutely an ego celebration...as we've come to expect from Sir Richard.

Yet while he was walking in slow motion and Khalid was singing his new single, what were our elected representatives doing? A few of them were going on the Sunday talk shows to once again do the dance where the host confronts them with video of some outrageous shit they said, to which they respond with rehearsed talking points and the host lets them off the hook and says "thank you Senator for speaking with us today."


When it comes to manned space flight - even if it's sub-orbital - governments are saying "we've got far smaller fish to fry." If billionaires blasting themselves into (almost) space gets the public interested in space flight, then so be it. The question of "should these people even be that rich?" is a separate discussion. For me personally? If I had a quarter of a million in disposable income, would I buy a brief sub-orbital ride in Branson's space plane vs another Bentley to park in my driveway? Yes. In a heartbeat.

Thing is, it's something that only the ultra-wealthy can afford...for now. Will it always be a toy of the rich? Maybe. Maybe not. I remember when the first big flat-screen high definition televisions came out. They looked amazing, but I couldn't afford to drop 10 grand on one. I have something similar in my bedroom right now. It cost about 350 bucks. Maybe by the time I get to Branson's age (about 15 years from now) the cost of a sub-orbital tourist flight will have come down a bit. Maybe not.

But at this point, the billionaires are the ones taking the shot. If they want to throw their money at space tourism, I say let them.
 
$500 million for a yacht? One can get a simple, no-frills motorboat for $5,000 or less -- essentially a rowboat with an outboard engine attached.

That means that that yacht costs as much as 100,000 simple motorboats.

A houseboat is more expensive, something like $500,000, making that yacht equal to 1,000 houseboats.


If one wants to spend that much money on a big boat, why not spend it on something that will be more broadly useful? Like Australian businessman Clive Palmer with his proposed  Titanic II. Yes, that ill-fated ship, but with lots of updates. He intends it to be a cruise ship that at least approximately re-creates the style of the original.

Or other replicas of notable ships of the past.
 
Were those who watched the video impressed with the obvious delight of the buxom woman frolicking in free-fall? She looked much too young to be a Virgin executive; should her seat have been given to a Nobel Laureate or a top statesman?

I think I was especially envious of the exclusive free-fall club that Branson doubtless joined once the camera was turned off. :)
 
(though it's actually also for publicity, as they want to sell such thrill rides to other very rich people).
This is what it is.

They aren't doing it for a joy ride. And they aren't doing it to advance science either. They are doing it to make money which is how capitalism works in a free economy.

It is the same business model that Elon Musk used with Tesla. First you market a product that only the rich can afford (Roadster) while improvements and advancement can be made to production until a price point is realized for average consumers. For Branson, that will mean providing quick and low cost travel between cities very far away. He may not succeed but that is the goal of all of these billionaires.

They did not become billionaires by being stupid.
 
Not stupid, just greedy
Yes
egotistical
You can't really tell. Sometimes the marketing requires the entrepreneur to appear egotistical
and the means with which to achieve their goals.
Yes, but that is good. Even if you are a little person when they achieve their goals, your life also gets incrementally better too. Technology advancements for the average person to travel from NYC to Sydney in 2 hours flight time.
 
Technology advancements for the average person to travel from NYC to Sydney in 2 hours flight time.

Is that a good thing?

For some people, it might well serve their immediate purposes. But over all, does it benefit the Human Family as a whole?

I doubt it.
From transporting viruses to pumping green house gasses into everybody's environment, I'm certain that this is fundamentally immoral.

Legal. Profitable*. But immoral.

Tom

* Check out the history of the French jet Concorde to see how profitable earth stupid transportation is, sometimes.
 
Technology advancements for the average person to travel from NYC to Sydney in 2 hours flight time.

Is that a good thing?
If it is done with less carbon than other modes of transportation, absolutely yes.
For some people, it might well serve their immediate purposes. But over all, does it benefit the Human Family as a whole?

I doubt it.
From transporting viruses to pumping green house gasses into everybody's environment, I'm certain that this is fundamentally immoral.

Legal. Profitable*. But immoral.

Tom
If done right, space travel could become not only very efficient but carbon neutral as well because there is no air friction at high altitudes.
* Check out the history of the French jet Concorde to see how profitable earth stupid transportation is, sometimes.
Back in 1957, Chevrolet was first marketing fuel injection for their autos and for various reasons at the time proved to be an economic flop. Yet 60 years later we see this very same invention has replaced everyone's carburator in virtually all ICE autos. So in hindsight we see Chevy to be ahead of its time with fuel injection. Its simply the progress of humanity that requires dedication, hard work, and the willingness not to give up. And those qualities can only survive in a free market society.
 
Does anyone else find themselves secretly hoping that one of them explodes?

That’s wrong I know, but what’s the point of these trips? They aren’t advancing science. They’re just going a multi million dollar thrill ride.

I just hope they all didn't forget to use the bathroom before leaving.

“Go to the bathroom in advance,” Bezos said, in a quote highlighted by Gizmodo. “The whole thing, from boarding until you’re back on the ground, is probably 40 or 41 minutes. So you’re going to be fine. You could dehydrate ever so slightly if you have a weak bladder.”

While 41 minutes doesn't seem like too long to hold it — especially with a tech billionaire warning you to use the facilities ahead of time like an earnest dad on I-95 — space travel comes with some stresses that can make it difficult to keep bodily functions under control.

Astronauts who make the trip to space often relieve themselves into diapers due to the lack of bathroom access at many stages of the experience.
Jeff Bezos doesn't want his Blue Origin passengers to poop or pee in space
 
From transporting viruses to pumping green house gasses into everybody's environment, I'm certain that this is fundamentally immoral.
Viruses take the path of least resistance. AIDS allegedly happened to the world because somebody built a highway. NY-to-Sidney rockets will make no difference to viruses in a world containing ordinary passenger jets.

Everything people do for fun pumps green house gasses into everybody's environment. The solution isn't to ban fun; it's to enact a carbon tax.

* Check out the history of the French jet Concorde to see how profitable earth stupid transportation is, sometimes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde

...Concorde was jointly developed and manufactured by Sud Aviation (later Aérospatiale) and the British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) under an Anglo-French treaty....​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud_Aviation

Sud Aviation (French pronunciation: ​[syd avjasjɔ̃], Southern Aviation) was a French state-owned aircraft manufacturer...​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aircraft_Corporation

The British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) was a British aircraft manufacturer formed from the government-pressured merger of English Electric Aviation Ltd., Vickers-Armstrongs (Aircraft), the Bristol Aeroplane Company and Hunting Aircraft...​

So, not exactly an exercise in free market capitalism.
 
And then what, comrade? Expropriate the rich like they did in the glorious Soviet Union? How did that work out?

Well, actually better than the tsarist system
Not sure what you're basing that theory on. The Soviet Union had much worse famines than the Russian Empire had had; Stalin deliberately starved millions of Ukrainians.

that preceded it
Are you one of those millions of folks who think the Bolsheviks overthrew the Tsar? The glorious Soviet Union wasn't preceded by the tsarist system. It was preceded by a multi-party democracy governed by a Socialist-led coalition government. The Tsar was overthrown eight months earlier by the army and ordinary civilians; Lenin wasn't even in Russia at the time.
 
No, he - like everyone else, shouldn't be super rich at all.

Nobody has done enough in their lives to deserve such wealth. Nobody.
No? How about this guy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

OK, maybe Stanislav Petrov. Maybe. And he never got any wealth in return for his genuinely meritorious actions.

<expletive deleted> them all.
And that, of course, is what this is all about -- economic systems should apparently be structured around catering to people's hatred for their outgroups.

If you've got, let's say, 500x median income for your nation or more, you should pay 100% tax on all further income.
That's a policy prescription with nothing going for it except catering to people's hatred for their outgroups. No one at all benefits from it except a few demagogue politicians who will get votes from people who decide their vote out of spitefulness. If you set somebody's marginal tax rate to 90% you'll collect more money from him -- if you set it to 100% at some level then he'll stop producing when he reaches that level and go on vacation. This implies that a 100% tax rate is not motivated by any good it will do; the goal is purely to harm somebody.

But nobody in the history of the world has done enough with their lives to earn more than $16M in today's dollars.
Do you have scientific evidence for that claim or is it just something we're supposed to take your word for?

Clearly a profit incentive is useful. Equally clearly, no individual has done so much more than the average as to deserve four or five, much less six orders of magnitude more than any ordinary working person.
How is that clear? You clearly haven't examined every rich individual; so you must have some theory of deservingness that implies it as a corollary. What's your theory of deservingness?

Whatever your theory is, you also appear to be implying that how much a person's income is ought to be based on how much somebody else thinks he deserves. Do you have an argument in favor of such a system, or are you just taking it for granted that that's how economies should be structured?

In our economy, there's very little connection between what anybody earns and what others think he deserves. Outside the public sector, people generally get income by producing stuff and keeping it, or by doing services for other people that other people choose to pay them for. For instance, Bezos has $200 billion because he kept performing services for other people and other people chose to give him in exchange $200 billion plus however much Bezos needed to pay other people to get them to do whatever they did to make it possible for Bezos to offer those services in the first place. I looked up Amazon's profit margin: 4%. That would imply Bezos gave others $4.8 trillion to help him provide services that others paid him $5 trillion for. Presumably, people wouldn't pay him $5 trillion unless the services they got for it were worth more than $5 trillion to them. How much more? X. Likewise, people wouldn't do stuff for Bezos for only $4.8 trillion unless doing the service cost them less than $4.8 trillion. How much less? Y. And of course to keep $200 billion Bezos had to earn more than $200 billion since he's been paying taxes. How much more? Z. So by doing whatever he did and by persuading other people to do what he wanted, Bezos made other people in society better off by $200 billion + X + Y + Z, as judged by those other people themselves.

Clearly, the average "any ordinary working person" has not made others better off by $20 million, as judged by that ordinary working person's customers and suppliers. So Bezos has evidently done at least four orders of magnitude more of a service to other members of society than a typical ordinary working person has, as service magnitude is judged by their respective customers and suppliers in aggregate.

Whether that means Bezos deserves four orders of magnitude more income in exchange for those services is of course a moral question you can square with your conscience any way you please; but that's not the issue I'm raising. The question is, what is it that makes you think a system that lets people retain income according to how much somebody decides they deserve would be a better system than one that lets people retain income according to how much benefit they've provided for the other people in the economy, as judged by those who received the benefits?
 
I don't mind the super rich. I just want them to pay a super level of taxes which they are NOT doing. Far from it.
 
Bezos is donating $200M to the Smithsonian, so it’s not like he’s only spending his fortune on himself. I don’t understand all the hate for these rocket flights. We don’t know who it will inspire or what technological advancements may come. What should he do, ride around the Mediterranean on a super yacht doing very unsavory things like some other super rich folks who have been in the news lately?

No, he - like everyone else, shouldn't be super rich at all.

Nobody has done enough in their lives to deserve such wealth. Nobody.

OK, maybe Stanislav Petrov. Maybe. And he never got any wealth in return for his genuinely meritorious actions.

Fuck them all. If you've got, let's say, 500x median income for your nation or more, you should pay 100% tax on all further income. We can hand out a trophy with "You won capitalism" on it or something. Maybe put up a statue of them for the pigeons to crap on. But nobody in the history of the world has done enough with their lives to earn more than $16M in today's dollars.

He created that wealth. Why shouldn't he be allowed to have it?
 
Wealth, shown to scale
https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/

We can have a world in which wealthy people exist, without handing nearly all money to the super rich.

A trillion dollars is such a large figure, that you might as well say "eleventy gajillion zillion dollars." So in this section, we will try to understand the scale of this figure by looking at what could be accomplished with various chunks of this wealth.

Some will argue that using this wealth for public benefit is not possible, because it's "tied up" in stocks, and therefore inaccessible. This is just not true.


As we proceed, try to keep in mind: all of this wealth is controlled by a group so small, that they could fit on a single 747 airplane—with 260 seats left over.

If you scroll far enough, you get to some spending ideas, given the $3.2 trillion controlled by the 400 richest Americans:


Still plenty of money for a billionaires' space race, even.

Deception alert!!

Note the family leave measure is marked as annual. At least two others are also annual things although not marked as such.

I see no reason to think we can even wipe out malaria without technological breakthroughs, we certainly aren't able to set a budget for doing so.

However, the money you propose to seize is a one-time thing.

This is just another incarnation of eat the rich.
 
The problem Toni is that we'll never colonize another planet or continue to explore without a profit incentive. And until we have a base on another planet or moon, our civilization is at risk. I personally can't wait until we have a base on the moon, a base on mars, are mining the asteroids, and exploring the rest of the solar system. And if someone can figure out how to do all this at a profit, we'll all benefit.

But seed corn is so tasty!
 
From transporting viruses to pumping green house gasses into everybody's environment, I'm certain that this is fundamentally immoral.
Viruses take the path of least resistance. AIDS allegedly happened to the world because somebody built a highway. NY-to-Sidney rockets will make no difference to viruses in a world containing ordinary passenger jets.

Things like highways or NY-to-Sidney rockets can spread new diseases faster, but they're going to spread anyway. We've already seen that few countries are willing to do what it takes to stop them.

Everything people do for fun pumps green house gasses into everybody's environment. The solution isn't to ban fun; it's to enact a carbon tax.

This. Most carbon uses can be replaced with nuclear power.
 
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