Is a vaccine mandate a racist policy?

[Thomas II]

Let me illustrate the point...

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/index.php/content/smallpox-two-boys

 

[Toni]

Toni, i don't think the drunk driver loses his keys punishment as much as because he's demonstrated he can't be trusted to operate his vehicle safely.
As mentioned in Jacobson Vs. Massachusetts, we have to give up some liberties in order to live within society. the 'liberty' to drink and drive is one of those.
The 'liberty' to be a plague rat and go about our business, moving through greater society without let or hindrance is another.

I agree. I don't see restriction of movement if you fail to follow public health directives as 'punishment.' I see it as a natural consequence, and an attempt to prevent another more serious and potentially fatal natural consequence.

 

[laughing dog]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Now why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the only source would be a hospital employee?

Probably because the original anecdote teller does not explain how on earth he knew the ER was full of unvaxxed people with COVID.

If the question hadn't specified "the ONLY source", that would a good answer. But thanks for confirming your bias.

It's dizzying to watch the mental gymnastics of the vaccine mandaters.

I challenged an anecdote: how did the father of the appendicitis case know the ER was overrun with unvaccinated people with COVID? He cannot reasonably discern either the COVID status or the vaccination status of anyone else in the ER. Either he lied, he guessed, or somebody who knew the information told him.

I then had at least two responses from people who appear to believe that I somehow claimed or insinuated the hospital itself wouldn't know, which I did not say and don't believe, and in fact conveyed the exact opposite by saying a nurse could have breached confidentiality to tell the father.

And now you are telling me someone other than a hospital employee could have told the father. Why did that somebody know? Where did they learn the information? Did the father himself look at the triage nurse's notes to see the presenting problems and medical history of all the other people in the ER?

Anyway: one father claims he waited six hours because his ER was full of unvaccinated people with COVID. And that's why we should place the unvaccinated under house arrest.

You offer another idiotic straw man complaint bout the challenges to your pointless and idiotic complaint about an anecdote. LOL.

As I have I said, I think quarantining the unvaccinnated is not feasible. If it were, I think it would be good policy because it is morally wrong to let others unnecessarily imperil the health and well-being of others because of their narcissism or stupidity. I also think those who wish to enable people who want to unnecessarily imperil the lives of others are promoting immoral policies.

 

[Elixir]

So you can dismiss this (and any similar) case. That’s understood.

 

[KeepTalking]

Cancer only effects that one person, it is not a communicable disease.

Let's try a more apt analogy:
If someone you cared about got ebola, but they did not want treatment, nor to be quarantined, but decided they were just going to hang around you, your friends, and your family until they died, do you think they should be allowed to do so?

Of course not. Anybody with ebola should be quarantined during the time they have it.

But your analogy doesn't make sense. I have never been against quarantining people who have an infectious disease. I am against quarantining people who don't have the disease.

People can be infected with COVID 19 and be infectious to others without presenting symptoms for quite some time.

Well, sure, but that isn't something that differs between the vaxxed and the unvaxxed. If anything, it seems to me the vaxxed are more likely to be asymptomatic if they get COVID (because the vaccine reduces severe response).

No, it is something that differs between ebola and COVID 19, and is why a quarantine of the infected works better for ebola than for COVID 19.

People without COVID are not a danger to anybody in transmitting COVID.

You can have COVID and transmit it to others without ever knowing you have COVID. The unvaxxed are definitely a danger to everyone as a result.

But so are the vaxxed. You can still get COVID and transmit it when you are vaxxed. If you couldn't, presumably the support for a mandate would be less, because most everybody who wanted to be would be 100% protected by getting vaxxed.

Yes, but that is a dodge. Although people without COVID 19 are no danger to anyone in transmitting the virus, the significant number of asymptomatic cases means that those who are unvaxxed pose a greater danger of transmitting the virus because they may have COVID 19 and not know it

The vaccine is free to end users, COVID treatments are not. That is what the price of the treatment has to do with it.

Well, so what? It is the people who get the treatment that will pay the price, not the vaxxed people. That you think it is irrational to get the treatment for the disease but not get vaxxed for the disease doesn't mean you should coerce people into getting vaxxed.

You were pontificating on new treatments and how they will help the unvaxxed survive the disease. So, my response countered that with pointing out that the treatments are costly, and that there are also long term effects associated with even mild cases of COVID. I thought that the financial cost of treatment, which could lead to financial hardships and resulting psychological costs for some would resonate with you, given that you are concerned about the psychological costs associated with financial hardships as a result of the mandate.

Of course there could be long term effects from having had COVID. But the people who choose not to be vaccinated have decided that they are willing to take that risk for themselves.

Why do you imagine that they even understand those risks? You hand waved away the problem of misinformation and outright lies before, but those things mean that the unvaxxed likely do not know the risks they are taking.

But it doesn't matter whether they understand them or don't understand them. Who is going to test them on their knowledge - you? We don't ordinarily subject people to tests of their knowledge before we allow them to refuse medical procedures. We don't force people to get blood transfusions even when it would save their life and that's been explained to them.

It isn't about testing them. You said they are willing to take a risk.

How can they be willing to take a risk if they do not know what that risk entails, or worse, if they are misinformed or lied to, and think the risk is less than what it is.

But more importantly, it is morally better to persuade people to get vaccinated than to threaten them.

I think the vaccine mandate is a morally better policy than one that allows a pandemic to go on unchecked, thereby increasing the pain, suffering and death across the board.

That is demonstrably incorrect. The unvaxxed pay the cost as well, including the cost of delayed medical care, mutated strains against which the vaccine may be less effective, as well as those unquantifiable psychological costs that you place so much importance on in your calculus.

This seems like a one way street. The people who do not want to get vaxxed ought be coerced into getting vaxxed for the benefit of the already vaxxed. What other medical procedures are you willing to coerce onto adults for the sake of others?

Most any vaccine mandate that will slow the spread of a deadly virus, including those that already exist, and have existed for decades, and for which the precedent has been set for centuries, even in freedom loving countries like the US.

Apathy is indifference, not opposition.

The people who have not gotten vaccinated have decided getting vaccinated is not worth the effort. They are opposed to doing whatever it is they need to do (book two appointments, drive out to a vaccination clinic, suffer a sore arm) for the perceived benefit.

Once again, apathy is indifference, not opposition.

I understand, you just value psychological costs that you can't quantify more.

I consider all sorts of things, including psychological costs but also intangible political costs that will make freedom worse in the future. When you normalise coercing a medical procedure on somebody, you have changed the moral landscape for the worse.

Vaccine mandates were normalized a very long time ago. The only reason this one is has become such an issue is because a US political party decided that making it an issue would be good for them.

We are talking about the real world scenario where we do not know how many are apathetic, we just know that it is a significant portion of the young adult cohort who are currently unvaxxed.

I imagine because they correctly perceive that they have the least to fear from COVID.

Apathy in no way implies fear.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think it's more accurate to say that the people who choose not to be vaccinated, for batshit reasons, need to be pressured into vaccinating for the benefit of the unvaccinated.
They're the ones dropping like flies.

And the ones who can NOT be vaccinated, and take precautions, but still get infected, don't deserve long-term suffering simply because someone was asymptomatic and careless.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If someone you cared about got cancer, but they did not want treatment, would you force them to get treatment? In fact, I don't think anybody would force them to get treatment, let alone have a national mandate to do so.

Cancer isn't contagious. Whether you get treatment or not is your decision. The vaccine mandate is about the risk to others.

If a mandate forces somebody to get vaccinated who otherwise would not have been, that person has to live with the distress of having a medical procedure they did not want and had earlier rejected simply to continue living in society. If a person never gets the vaccine, gets COVID, and then dies from COVID, their life has been made wretched from the time of the mandate until their death, and the person dying has paid the cost of the mandate.

You need to demonstrate that being forced to have a vaccine makes someone's life wretched.

You keep saying 'unnecessary'; what I think you mean is 'preventable by vaccine'.

People take 'unnecessary' risks every day.

You can generally take unnecessary risks with your own life, but the law tends to intervene when you take unnecessary risks with other's lives.

There are also new treatments coming online for COVID (not vaccines), and there will be people who take the treatments that refused the vaccine. I assume the treatments will be effective in preventing many deaths of the unvaccinated.

There's a drug that is AFIAK near approval. Note, though, that it's only 50% effective. It's not a miracle cure.

Because the number of acts we permit the State (or parents) to force on people (or do without their permission) is larger for children than adults. We would permit (encourage) a parent to give their child the MMR vaccine when the child is 12 months old. I don't think we would let a parent force the MMR vaccine on their 20 year old, however.

Required vaccines for medical workers are very common.

You've done a bait and switch. It is the egos of the unvaxxed that the mandate hurts, but the deaths of hundreds of thousands is a cost also paid by the unvaxxed.

But they don't believe they'll pay the cost.

The millions grieving would mourn the deaths, but that is not the same as saying they would support a mandate that might have prevented the deaths. I would mourn the death of any member of my family who got a disease but refused to treat it, nor would I support treatment being forced on them to save their life.

You keep trying to move the goalposts here. The vaccine mandate is about protecting others!

Lots of adult decisions are influenced by 'misinformation' and 'flat out lies' or, more broadly, just general falsehoods. Billions do things they think God wants them to do, and God doesn't even exist. But we don't stop people doing what they think God wants them to do*, unless it's already against secular laws.

*Well, unless you are in Australia, where praying the gay away is literally a criminal offense in some states. Team Australia!

Yeah, a lot of people are misinformed. There's a limit to what the state can do in that regard, but that doesn't give them the right to endanger others due to that misinformation. Or do you agree with the wife of a former coworker who said that if your faith is good enough DUI doesn't matter because God will protect you?

I cannot imagine that situation in reality (that is, with 40% unvaccinated, many such people must strongly object to getting vaccinated, rather than being made up of the 'apathy' crowd, who do not strongly object but are just apathetic about the vaccine). However, if it hurt only the feelings of a single person, a mandate that was the least intrusive possible to get up to the minimum agreed 'herd immunity' level would be justified, because the feelings of a single person do not outweigh all the other costs. And, the precedent set up for the State is quite different--a mandate where 40% of the population need only a behavioural nudge to get vaccinated is far different to a mandate where 40% of the population actively object to what the State is demanding they do to their bodies.

But most of them are getting the shots when it comes down to a choice of shot or no job. Obviously the harm is not that great.

More interesting would be data we can't get yet--ask them a year later whether the shot harmed them.

That calculus still does not take into account the fragile egos of the unvaxxed.

I see your dehumanising language has not taken a break. Still, you are better than most, who have claimed they can't wait for the unvaxxed to die in agony and they will laugh at their suffering.

I can't see laughing at their suffering but at this point it's self inflicted, they get no sympathy from me.

 

[none]

in other news... i head/read/made up this story about how hospitals are running at capacity for some strange reason...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But your analogy doesn't make sense. I have never been against quarantining people who have an infectious disease. I am against quarantining people who don't have the disease.

The problem is people don't know they have Covid. It's contagious before it shows symptoms. That's why it exploded across the world while SARS was stopped.

With a communicable virus, they are not only taking unnecessary risk for themselves, but for everyone around them. Just like a person who takes an unnecessary risk by driving at high speed, exceeding the speed limit, on a crowded highway. You are advocating that we let them be a danger to everyone because they might become distressed by being forced to slow down.

People without COVID are not a danger to anybody in transmitting COVID.

You don't seem to understand the key issue here--people can't know they don't have Covid, thus this comparison is irrelevant.

Of course there could be long term effects from having had COVID. But the people who choose not to be vaccinated have decided that they are willing to take that risk for themselves.

They can choose to take the risk for themselves--but they don't get to choose to take it for others.

How about we make it a bit more fair--a lottery. Every person who refuses the vaccine is in the lottery. Every time someone who is vaccinated dies a name is drawn and that person is executed.

Yes, you have somehow come to the conclusion that psychological harm, no matter the extent, is worse than death. That is not a view I have seen espoused from many people. In fact, in my experience, that makes you quite unique.

No, I do not mean that all psychological harm is worse than death.

You have described the lives of people forced to be vaccinated as wretched.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The harm from being unvaccinated is not limited to the unvaccinated.

View attachment 35807

Precisely how this person knew the vaccination status and presenting problems of people in the ER I'm sure I don't know.

But I did not say not getting vaccinated did not 'affect' others. It affects others in the same way that being obese and having a heart attack affects others. In the same way smoking cigarettes and getting lung cancer affects others. In the same way being a woodworker and cutting your fingers off affects others.

Oh, come on now. We know the hospitals are being overwhelmed with unvaxxed Covid patients. Why should we think it's anything else???

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Probably as the kid's screaming in the waiting room, the intake nurse is trying to explain why they cannot rush the kid in for treatment right away cuz of the dumb fucks who suddenly WANT to trust medical science and medical professionals please don't sue us.
This is why the mandates are necessary, as a measure of self defense. The 'psychological' harm they may suffer pales in vomparison to the very real harm they are inflicting.

If a nurse disclosed somebody's private medical information (their vaccination status) to strangers, that nurse ought be disciplined.

But I doubt the nurse did. I think the person who posted the appendicitis story simply assumed the vaccination status (and COVID diagnosis) of a large number of people in the ER. It's a great party trick. In Australia, we're so behind the times we use PCR testing for a COVID diagnosis.

No HIPPA violation. It would be illegal for a nurse to disclose that patient X is unvaccinated. It is not illegal for the nurse to say that most of the patients are unvaccinated--that does not identify anyone's medical information.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Um no. They can say there are too many beds occupied by crona virus patients.

I concur. If an anecdote supports your narrative, it's true.

Multiple places are operating at crisis standards--ERs amnd ICUs are prioritizing patients by their chance of survival and telling the ones with poor chances to go home and die. Many other places are not doing this formally but instead letting people die in the waiting room without trying to sort out their chances first, which is even worse in my book as it increases the death toll.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

He wasn't refused care. His son's care was triaged. He wrote:

"The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated COVID patients".

I can't tell from looking at somebody their vaccination status or their COVID status. It would be a rare talent indeed.

But I don't think he has that ability. Nor do I think somebody told him the presenting problems and medical history of the people in the ER. I think he guessed.

Triage only happens when medical capabilities are currently overloaded. (Note that "medical capabilities" is very broad in this context.)

 

[Metaphor]

I'm not dismissing the concern. I just expressed skepticism that this person knew the presenting problems and the vaccination status of people in the ER.

And by concentrating on that, you're ignoring the concern.
That's not the salient detail in the discussion at hand.

I also believe that people are entitled to be triaged according to need in the ER, even if they earlier refused a medical procedure which increased the likelihood of their ER visit.

Never said anything different. But the fact that they're filling the beds is impacting the safety of others.

I also believe that no country should coerce medical procedures on adults who do not want them.

You keep bringing this up, except it is not being suggested in any current vaccine mandate.
People just have to make their own choice between the vaccine and the ability to hold jobs, travel, socialize, and maybe not drive ERs to 110% capacity.

The casualness of your last sentence. Except for a literal execution, ostracism from society has been one of the most powerful punishments ever concocted.

 

[Metaphor]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

He wasn't refused care. His son's care was triaged. He wrote:

"The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated COVID patients".

I can't tell from looking at somebody their vaccination status or their COVID status. It would be a rare talent indeed.

But I don't think he has that ability. Nor do I think somebody told him the presenting problems and medical history of the people in the ER. I think he guessed.

Triage only happens when medical capabilities are currently overloaded. (Note that "medical capabilities" is very broad in this context.)

Triage happens all day, every day, in every hospital emergency room on earth.

For fuck's sake the level of mental gymnastics. ARE YOU NOT DIZZY?

 

[Metaphor]

The harm from being unvaccinated is not limited to the unvaccinated.

View attachment 35807

Precisely how this person knew the vaccination status and presenting problems of people in the ER I'm sure I don't know.

But I did not say not getting vaccinated did not 'affect' others. It affects others in the same way that being obese and having a heart attack affects others. In the same way smoking cigarettes and getting lung cancer affects others. In the same way being a woodworker and cutting your fingers off affects others.

Oh, come on now. We know the hospitals are being overwhelmed with unvaxxed Covid patients. Why should we think it's anything else???

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

I don't know the state of every ER in America and neither do you.

 

[Metaphor]

But your analogy doesn't make sense. I have never been against quarantining people who have an infectious disease. I am against quarantining people who don't have the disease.

The problem is people don't know they have Covid. It's contagious before it shows symptoms. That's why it exploded across the world while SARS was stopped.

Being vaxxed does not change your level of awareness about having COVID.

With a communicable virus, they are not only taking unnecessary risk for themselves, but for everyone around them. Just like a person who takes an unnecessary risk by driving at high speed, exceeding the speed limit, on a crowded highway. You are advocating that we let them be a danger to everyone because they might become distressed by being forced to slow down.

People without COVID are not a danger to anybody in transmitting COVID.

You don't seem to understand the key issue here--people can't know they don't have Covid, thus this comparison is irrelevant.

I understand the issue. I reject forcing other people to get a medical procedure for your benefit.

Of course there could be long term effects from having had COVID. But the people who choose not to be vaccinated have decided that they are willing to take that risk for themselves.

They can choose to take the risk for themselves--but they don't get to choose to take it for others.

How about we make it a bit more fair--a lottery. Every person who refuses the vaccine is in the lottery. Every time someone who is vaccinated dies a name is drawn and that person is executed.

Hell, why not combine the lottery with house arrest? But the execution should be televised, and particularly inhumane and gruesome, to warn all the other people who refuse to be coerced into a medical procedure on their body.

Yes, you have somehow come to the conclusion that psychological harm, no matter the extent, is worse than death. That is not a view I have seen espoused from many people. In fact, in my experience, that makes you quite unique.

No, I do not mean that all psychological harm is worse than death.

You have described the lives of people forced to be vaccinated as wretched.

Toni's indefinite house arrest plan would make the lives of the unvaccinated wretched.

 

[Toni]

But your analogy doesn't make sense. I have never been against quarantining people who have an infectious disease. I am against quarantining people who don't have the disease.

The problem is people don't know they have Covid. It's contagious before it shows symptoms. That's why it exploded across the world while SARS was stopped.

Being vaxxed does not change your level of awareness about having COVID.

With a communicable virus, they are not only taking unnecessary risk for themselves, but for everyone around them. Just like a person who takes an unnecessary risk by driving at high speed, exceeding the speed limit, on a crowded highway. You are advocating that we let them be a danger to everyone because they might become distressed by being forced to slow down.

People without COVID are not a danger to anybody in transmitting COVID.

You don't seem to understand the key issue here--people can't know they don't have Covid, thus this comparison is irrelevant.

I understand the issue. I reject forcing other people to get a medical procedure for your benefit.

Of course there could be long term effects from having had COVID. But the people who choose not to be vaccinated have decided that they are willing to take that risk for themselves.

They can choose to take the risk for themselves--but they don't get to choose to take it for others.

How about we make it a bit more fair--a lottery. Every person who refuses the vaccine is in the lottery. Every time someone who is vaccinated dies a name is drawn and that person is executed.

Hell, why not combine the lottery with house arrest? But the execution should be televised, and particularly inhumane and gruesome, to warn all the other people who refuse to be coerced into a medical procedure on their body.

Yes, you have somehow come to the conclusion that psychological harm, no matter the extent, is worse than death. That is not a view I have seen espoused from many people. In fact, in my experience, that makes you quite unique.

No, I do not mean that all psychological harm is worse than death.

You have described the lives of people forced to be vaccinated as wretched.

Toni's indefinite house arrest plan would make the lives of the unvaccinated wretched.

Not at all! For one thing, there is something very specific and free! that they can do in order to enjoy free movement. Something that I don't enjoy now, even though I am vaccinated and about to get my booster shot. Nope: I still constrain my movements, limit my opportunities to socialize or interact with other people, purchase household goods and engage in other everyday, ordinary activities BECAUSE OF ASSHOLES WHO WON'T GET VAXXED. Not CAN'T. WON'T.

 

[Toni]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

He wasn't refused care. His son's care was triaged. He wrote:

"The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated COVID patients".

I can't tell from looking at somebody their vaccination status or their COVID status. It would be a rare talent indeed.

But I don't think he has that ability. Nor do I think somebody told him the presenting problems and medical history of the people in the ER. I think he guessed.

Triage only happens when medical capabilities are currently overloaded. (Note that "medical capabilities" is very broad in this context.)

Triage happens all day, every day, in every hospital emergency room on earth.

For fuck's sake the level of mental gymnastics. ARE YOU NOT DIZZY?

Really? You sure about that? You've been to exactly how many ERs? FWIW, I can attest that 'triage' doesn't happen at every ER every day of the year. AT least twice I brought in a child with an injury needing immediate medical help and....we were seen right away because there was literally no one in the waiting area when we went in. No. One.

 

[none]

oh come on, you don't know every asshole....