My experiences that suggest an intelligent force exists

[Elixir]

Walking on the beach at night in Naples FL as a toddler, my father pointed out the full moon and Mars, which was only 20 degrees or so away from the moon. He wasn't looking when I saw (what I much later realized was a meteor) leave mars and fly directly to the moon. For years, I was unable to form the question to ask how that could be done...

 

[steve_bank]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

 

[excreationist]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

I'm saying that if it exists, it hardly ever intervenes.

 

[Learner]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

Laws of physics are predictable . That is to say you should know what to expect in a mechanical-like universe.

If it were otherwise shoddy, the universe would cease to exist (eons ago) to allow there to be any continuation of any functionality as we currently see it . After all, its said the universe is 13 point something billion years old and... the clockwork is still going?

 

[excreationist]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

Laws of physics are predictable . That is to say you should know what to expect in a mechanical-like universe.

If it were otherwise shoddy, the universe would cease to exist (eons ago) to allow there to be any continuation of any functionality as we currently see it . After all, its said the universe is 13 point something billion years old and... the clockwork is still going?

Maybe there are many universes that exist and many have shoddy laws of physics but no-one is directly aware of them because people are incapable of existing in those universes. (the anthropic principle)

 

[skepticalbip]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

Laws of physics are predictable . That is to say you should know what to expect in a mechanical-like universe.

If it were otherwise shoddy, the universe would cease to exist (eons ago) to allow there to be any continuation of any functionality as we currently see it . After all, its said the universe is 13 point something billion years old and... the clockwork is still going?

It depends on what you mean by "clockwork". The idea of a clockwork universe arose long, long before humanity had any real understanding of what is happening in the universe. The idea was of an eternal smooth operating system, with everything perfectly and smoothly following its ordained paths repeatedly forever - like a well designed eternal clock.

It has been found that asteroids and comets collide with planets or plunge into the sun, that suns explode destroying their planetary systems, galaxies collide, stars with their planets are tidally ripped apart and are sucked into black holes, etc. What we now know of the workings of the universe is quite far from the understanding of the universe held by those who long ago coined the phrase, "clockwork universe".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

Laws of physics are predictable . That is to say you should know what to expect in a mechanical-like universe.

If it were otherwise shoddy, the universe would cease to exist (eons ago) to allow there to be any continuation of any functionality as we currently see it . After all, its said the universe is 13 point something billion years old and... the clockwork is still going?

It depends on what you mean by "clockwork". The idea of a clockwork universe arose long, long before humanity had any real understanding of what is happening in the universe. The idea was of an eternal smooth operating system, with everything perfectly and smoothly following its ordained paths repeatedly forever - like a well designed eternal clock.

It has been found that asteroids and comets collide with planets or plunge into the sun, that suns explode destroying their planetary systems, galaxies collide, stars with their planets are tidally ripped apart and are sucked into black holes, etc. What we now know of the workings of the universe is quite far from the understanding of the universe held by those who long ago coined the phrase, "clockwork universe".

It has gone from "It is so seamless and simple it must be designed" to "It is so intricate and complicated, so it must be designed!"

- - - Updated - - -

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

I'm saying that if it exists, it hardly ever intervenes.

As in, just in your life and no where else?

 

[skepticalbip]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

I'm saying that if it exists, it hardly ever intervenes.

As in, just in your life and no where else?

Sorta like Harvey, the invisible rabbit, only showed himself to James Stewart's character, Elwood P. Dowd.

 

[Jobar]

Solipsism- my best argument against it is as follows.

Presuming we are brains in vats, then someone or something must have created both brain, and vat.

But, that someone or something cannot prove that it is not also a brain in a vat, being fed the illusion that it's creating a brain in a vat.

And who or whatever is feeding in that illusion can't tell if it is just another brain in a vat. There's no way to tell if it's vats all the way down!

And that violates Occam's Razor. It's about as unparsimonious as you can get; no way to tell how many brains in vats there are. Simplest is to just presume you are functioning as close to the process level- reality- as it's possible for any being to do.

 

[excreationist]

....

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

I'm saying that if it exists, it hardly ever intervenes.

As in, just in your life and no where else?

If it exists, it would have intervened in some other people's lives too, though some people might not realise it. In the following thread I was thinking about the possibility that it played a role in "intelligent design": (abiogenesis and/or evolution)
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?15921-Agnosticism-and-Intelligent-Design
All I'm saying is that it is an intelligent force and I'm not clear of the explanation though many would believe it is the God of traditional Christianity.

 

[Learner]

It depends on what you mean by "clockwork". The idea of a clockwork universe arose long, long before humanity had any real understanding of what is happening in the universe. The idea was of an eternal smooth operating system, with everything perfectly and smoothly following its ordained paths repeatedly forever - like a well designed eternal clock.

It has been found that asteroids and comets collide with planets or plunge into the sun, that suns explode destroying their planetary systems, galaxies collide, stars with their planets are tidally ripped apart and are sucked into black holes, etc. .

Are you sure thats what is looks like to you in the whole BIG scheme of the universe thing? So I would assume you take it , that these "collisions have been happening "continously" way back in the past and yet.... here we are today as mere fragile life-forms existing despite these great collisions and ripped apart sucked in to black-holes cycles. The mere life forms are managing , or being quite "lucky" and resisting to be extinct some how.

Obviously ,and you're right , it does depend what one means by clockwork. If I understand your POV of everything ending up in black holes (by some other theories , black holes also spit out matter ) Would there be then no matter left in the universe at some point ? Collisions are small in the scheme of the "vast" universe and these collisions are on repetitive cycles mode by the governing laws, that is to say they have a function and its all part of the term I would describe... clockwork.

What we now know of the workings of the universe is quite far from the understanding of the universe held by those who long ago coined the phrase, "clockwork universe

But I get this understanding and why. You sort of see it as the view of little tiny ants (if they're thinking as we do) looking at great big falling rain drops as end-of-the-world floods (for lack of a better analogy).

 

[skepticalbip]

It depends on what you mean by "clockwork". The idea of a clockwork universe arose long, long before humanity had any real understanding of what is happening in the universe. The idea was of an eternal smooth operating system, with everything perfectly and smoothly following its ordained paths repeatedly forever - like a well designed eternal clock.

It has been found that asteroids and comets collide with planets or plunge into the sun, that suns explode destroying their planetary systems, galaxies collide, stars with their planets are tidally ripped apart and are sucked into black holes, etc. .

Are you sure thats what is looks like to you in the whole BIG scheme of the universe thing? So I would assume you take it , that these "collisions have been happening "continously" way back in the past and yet.... here we are today as mere fragile life-forms existing despite these great collisions and ripped apart sucked in to black-holes cycles. The mere life forms are managing , or being quite "lucky" and resisting to be extinct some how.

As humans, we experience only a very small slice through time and space. Humans have only existed for a minute period of time on the universal scale. We judge how the universe works on an even much shorter period of time. Yes, we are "lucky" that we haven't seen a major species eliminating asteroid collision like happened about 65 million years ago. However, humanity was almost completely eliminated about seventy thousand years ago by a super volcano eruption. Humanity, along with much if not all life on the planet, may be eliminated by a comet or asteroid impact any time in the future. If not that or another event, then it certainly will be eliminated as our sun expands toward its red giant phase in the very near future on the universal time scale.

Obviously ,and you're right , it does depend what one means by clockwork. If I understand your POV of everything ending up in black holes (by some other theories , black holes also spit out matter ) Would there be then no matter left in the universe at some point ? Collisions are small in the scheme of the "vast" universe and these collisions are on repetitive cycles mode by the governing laws, that is to say they have a function and its all part of the term I would describe... clockwork.

Then we seem to sorta agree... the laws of physics work, even without humans. This is, however, a far cry from meaning and intent of those who coined the phrase "clockwork universe". They meant an orderly and benign universe designed for the benefit and well being of humanity.

What we now know of the workings of the universe is quite far from the understanding of the universe held by those who long ago coined the phrase, "clockwork universe

But I get this understanding and why. You sort of see it as the view of little tiny ants (if they're thinking as we do) looking at great big falling rain drops as end-of-the-world floods (for lack of a better analogy).

Yes. Humans are very important to humans, somewhat important to a few other species, but much less than insignificant to the universe at large.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

In Christianity, the idea of nature is old. A good example is the claims of William of Okham. God does not work a series of miracle to keep the Universe working as it does. God creates secondary causes, nature, which run by the laws of nature God creates. The idea than of a clock work Universe which runs by itself based on the laws of nature is simply another metaphorical way of describing all of this. Descartes thus states life is a result of natures laws, like the movement of a clock's hands are caused by it's mechanical design. Descarte's ideas were very influential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_philosophy

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

....
As in, just in your life and no where else?

If it exists, it would have intervened in some other people's lives too, though some people might not realise it. In the following thread I was thinking about the possibility that it played a role in "intelligent design": (abiogenesis and/or evolution)
https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?15921-Agnosticism-and-Intelligent-Design
All I'm saying is that it is an intelligent force and I'm not clear of the explanation though many would believe it is the God of traditional Christianity.

So from hardly ever intervenes to, it was involved in evolution.

 

[skepticalbip]

In Christianity, the idea of nature is old. A good example is the claims of William of Okham. God does not work a series of miracle to keep the Universe working as it does. God creates secondary causes, nature, which run by the laws of nature God creates. The idea than of a clock work Universe which runs by itself based on the laws of nature is simply another metaphorical way of describing all of this. Descartes thus states life is a result of natures laws, like the movement of a clock's hands are caused by it's mechanical design. Descarte's ideas were very influential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_philosophy

That would be the take of Deists. God being the creator that set everything in motion and then just left it to run, no longer being involved or concerned.

This is quite different than the Christian or Muslim idea of god. God being a very involved personal god, intimately concerned with humanity's actions, judging and rewarding or punishing.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

In Christianity, the idea of nature is old. A good example is the claims of William of Okham. God does not work a series of miracle to keep the Universe working as it does. God creates secondary causes, nature, which run by the laws of nature God creates. The idea than of a clock work Universe which runs by itself based on the laws of nature is simply another metaphorical way of describing all of this. Descartes thus states life is a result of natures laws, like the movement of a clock's hands are caused by it's mechanical design. Descarte's ideas were very influential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_philosophy

That would be the take of Deists. God being the creator that set everything in motion and then just left it to run, no longer being involved or concerned.

This is quite different than the Christian or Muslim idea of god. God being a very involved personal god, intimately concerned with humanity's actions, judging and rewarding or punishing.

Well, no. It does not mean as per Aristotle, a god, a prime mover that set the Universe in motion and then withdrew to only contemplate his own navel . It means a God that created a Universe that does not need God to create every single thing, individually that happens in the Universe. He creates the stuff of the Universe, the laws of the Universe that allows things to happen and lets it go. he does intervene from time to time, creating miracles, send commands to prophets, send Jesus, etc. But those sort of events are the exceptions to the rule of nature. This is an idea that was held for centuries by very orthodox Catholic thinkers.

The idea of Aristotle's retiring God was held by Averroes, whose writings were translated into Latin, and that deistic God was roundly condemned repeatedly by the RCC. Notably by the Condemnations of 1277. Teaching of Aristotle in Universities was forbidden. A universe where nature rules, leaves room for free will.

 

[steve_bank]

My experience says if there is an intelligence in the universe we need a class action suit on the behalf of humans for incompetence and shoddy work.

Laws of physics are predictable . That is to say you should know what to expect in a mechanical-like universe.

If it were otherwise shoddy, the universe would cease to exist (eons ago) to allow there to be any continuation of any functionality as we currently see it . After all, its said the universe is 13 point something billion years old and... the clockwork is still going?

Extinction by asteroid strikes. EArthquakes. Hurricanes. Human nature...tendency to violence and abuse. And so on and so forth. The universe could have been done a lot better.

 

[Learner]

Extinction by asteroid strikes. EArthquakes. Hurricanes. Human nature...tendency to violence and abuse. And so on and so forth. The universe could have been done a lot better.

I shouldn't have done the previous post (now thinking about it, apologies Skep et al) I was coming from an old habitual moment (I've got to let go of) . A previous intelligent-design interest (as this thread is about) I had some years ago. But I used to say that e.g. when turtles lay 100 + eggs and not all hatchlings get to survive ...fortunately "some do" and continues each cycle / generation . Continuation of Life was the "main objective". Not so close and personal a creator maybe ..wasn't sure then.

 

[excreationist]

Today I was working on mobile apps using a hybrid browser based system called Cordova. Anyway I was working on it for hours and going around in circles with lots of errors and things not working. Then I read something about opening workspaces rather than projects in Xcode. Then I was saying a bit of a prayer to God because I felt I had tried just about everything. Then it worked - and it fixed two major problems at the same time! This is the first time I can remember praying for a programming problem. Also normally I say "dear Jesus" when I pray - like when my wife asks me to pray - but not this time. Later there was another problem but I didn't want pray because I didn't want the prayer to fail. I'm starting to master Cordova - hopefully I'll be able to use the latest versions for Android and iOS rather than what I had formally been doing where I had been using random old versions that sometimes worked. I felt like I should tell my boss (the only other person at work that day) about the answered prayer but I felt a bit embarrassed.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then I was saying a bit of a prayer to God because I felt I had tried just about everything. Then it worked - and it fixed two major problems at the same time!

On my third boat, we had a logic glitch in one of the missile tubes we were testing.

We tried documented troubleshooting. Took the readings, followed the instructions, exhausted the Fault Isolation Procedures without any improvement.
We tried manual troubleshooting, following 1's and 0's through the available logic diagrams to try to see what was going on, what was wrong, no effect.
We tried shaking all the connections. Low pressure air across the panels in case there was a dust bunny causing grounds. We even beat the relay cans with a nightstick in case something was just stuck.

The senior watchstanders decided to walk away from the problem, clear their heads, try to think of something else.

They had served fried chicken for lunch that day. I acquired some bones from the chicken, strung them on the wire from a metal hanger. Two other guys and I took the chicken and danced naked around the affected tube, shaking the chicken and a Tiki head from our shakedown cruise (Kon-Tiki, the DASO Ware God). The third guy beat on the base of a plastic bucket as a drum.

We danced at every level of the tube, then we cycled power to everything and reran the test.

Test passed.

And yet, strangely, the next time a similar fault occurred, I went to the FIP before the chicken bones... Weird, huh?