My experiences that suggest an intelligent force exists

[Learner]

The phrase, "God works in mysterious ways" still means "mystery" although funny enough, is not a phrase quoted directly from the bible.



Yes theists use the above phrase also with the understanding we may never know or have the ability to comprehend.

Scientists actually like mysteries. Mysteries challenge them. OTOH, priests find nothing mysterious because they start with the answer then twist the question to fit the answer.

True, God is the automatic default for believers but it still remains mysterious e.g. "HOW" it all works. Trying to make questions fit isn't a bad thing if an idea or discovery does indeed fit or corroborate the belief to the individual, who is genuinely trying to find answers. Of course when we are using your particular choice of word "twist" then this may imply a somewhat different context to finding answers (not a standard theistic practice), I don't doubt this may happen but it defeats the purpose for any search for truth obviously, especially if they're priests.

History demonstrates your interpretation is wrong. For one example, science unraveling the 'mystery' of where species came from is still seen as sacrilegious heresy by some religious sects. When first suggested, the theory of evolution was widely condemned by religions. This is because religion 'knew' that god created each species exactly as they are and to question that knowledge was an inconceivable sin. For the religious, 'god did it' is a final answer negating the need of any further questioning or even condemning the morality of questioning further.

Not disputing some of what you post but I was in previous post , talking about those (using the word twist) who would be dishonestly "twisting" questions or answers to fit , while being priests or preachers,who would still be going out and teaching false ideas. That means to me , they don't actually believe in the bible , defeating the purpose but I suppose it works quite well for preachers for profit. As I previously was trying to make clear, its not the right theistic standard (biblically) to twist things.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But of course, investigations could work for me too. If it becomes NOT the mystery I thought it was, I become atheist...

But that's not what's going to happen. Every step, every inch that the 'mystery' is pushed back, the believer clings to their belief that their god is somewhere, back there, behind the now-revealed.
Such as, oh, gosh, is there anyone one this board that insists on asking 'But then, where did those natural laws COME FROM!?!'

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Beyond the Higgs-field theory is the mysterious ways , the process workings of the universe. " I wonder what it is ? ", ponders the scientist.

Actually the scientist presents a hypothesis and tests it.

 

[steve_bank]

Considering the sloppy rag tag solar system with asteroid strikes and the like I conclude there is no guiding force.

 

[skepticalbip]

But of course, investigations could work for me too. If it becomes NOT the mystery I thought it was, I become atheist...

But that's not what's going to happen. Every step, every inch that the 'mystery' is pushed back, the believer clings to their belief that their god is somewhere, back there, behind the now-revealed.
Such as, oh, gosh, is there anyone one this board that insists on asking 'But then, where did those natural laws COME FROM!?!'

Yup. Theist justifications range from "It is a mystery that no one can understand therefore it could only have been the work of god" to "It is so orderly and understandable that it had to be god's design".

 

[excreationist]

Considering the sloppy rag tag solar system with asteroid strikes and the like I conclude there is no guiding force.

I think an intelligent force only normally intervenes a bit - it might not place a big priority on dealing with the problem you have.

 

[bilby]

Yeah, it's funny how God's plan looks almost exactly like no plan at all.

Gods only intervene when to do so looks indistinguishable from random and uncontrolled events.

If prayer worked, you would expect to see god's hand every time a disaster was imminent. Just like a fire truck is dispatched every time someone calls for one.

I mean, if the fire brigade only turned up to a tiny proportion of fires, despite loads of people calling the emergency services, you might start to wonder whether there was a dispatcher at all, or whether the firies just fight fires if they happen to stumble upon them by pure luck.

And in the latter case, you certainly wouldn't see citizens gathering at public meetings every Sunday to say how wonderful a job the firehouse dispatcher was doing, and to literally sing his praises.

 

[excreationist]

Yeah, it's funny how God's plan looks almost exactly like no plan at all.

Gods only intervene when to do so looks indistinguishable from random and uncontrolled events.

What about post #102? The laws of physics weren't broken but some highly unlikely events happened. Normally there are always 21 pieces of each colour and this was the only time I tried reading the Bible upside down.

If prayer worked, you would expect to see god's hand every time a disaster was imminent....

From post #1: (Futurama)
"being God isn't easy, if you
do too much, people get dependent. And
if you do nothing, they lose hope. You
have to use a light touch"

From post #3:
"Besides the possibility that the future is influencing the past, there is the possibility that we're in a simulated reality. Elon Musk has said there is a billions to one chance that we are NOT in a simulation"

After I'd been in hospital for being manic for a week I posted this on facebook:

"We live in a retrocasual E8 block universe as sinners with a loving higher power who sometimes uses tough love. There is also a malicious deceptive force that the loving higher power allows to hurt people."

"The block universe theory, where time travel is possible but time passing is an illusion"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...eory-time-past-present-future-travel/10178386

"Could E8 be the theory of everything?"
https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/theory-of-everything2.htm


"Retrocausality may explain how the future can change what happens now - as in a quantum time machine"
https://www.sott.net/article/377599...what-happens-now-as-in-a-quantum-time-machine

BTW in the movie Interstellar there are intelligent forces from the future... also time travel in "Twelve Monkeys" is compatible with a block universe (nothing ends up changing)

 

[DrZoidberg]

If prayer worked, you would expect to see god's hand every time a disaster was imminent....

From post #1: (Futurama)
"being God isn't easy, if you
do too much, people get dependent. And
if you do nothing, they lose hope. You
have to use a light touch"

Almost everything in the universe is trying to kill us all the time. Life exists in spite of God's best efforts. I look forward to the day when God does nothing. It'll be an improvement on the current state of affairs.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Considering the sloppy rag tag solar system with asteroid strikes and the like I conclude there is no guiding force.

I think an intelligent force only normally intervenes a bit - it might not place a big priority on dealing with the problem you have.

So, that's you putting in the effort to make sure your god's total inaction is acceptable, rather than a significant clue.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What about post #102? The laws of physics weren't broken but some highly unlikely events happened.

You know, 'miracles' are supposed to be events that can only be explained by divine interaction with the universe. Physics as we know it is mugged, probability is raped and left in a ditch, the IMPOSSIBLE occurs without Lalo Schifrin's help...

Anything less than that rather emphatically does NOT require divinity to explain it. Just another human being horribly impressed by coincidence.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I mean, if the fire brigade only turned up to a tiny proportion of fires, despite loads of people calling the emergency services, you might start to wonder whether there was a dispatcher at all, or whether the firies just fight fires if they happen to stumble upon them by pure luck.

And in the latter case, you certainly wouldn't see citizens gathering at public meetings every Sunday to say how wonderful a job the firehouse dispatcher was doing, and to literally sing his praises.

Bilby, for shame. Firemen always show up when you call out to them. Sometimes, however, their answer is "no, we're not going to put out your fire."

That's how much they love us. I mean, they burned their only son to death to prove how much they love us. Because nothing proves love like a completely unnecessary murder/sacrifice to those that have absolutely no reason whatsoever to require murder/sacrifices in the first place.

We should ALL love so deeply that we murder our children.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, it's funny how God's plan looks almost exactly like no plan at all.

Gods only intervene when to do so looks indistinguishable from random and uncontrolled events.

What about post #102? The laws of physics weren't broken but some highly unlikely events happened. Normally there are always 21 pieces of each colour and this was the only time I tried reading the Bible upside down.

You mean that you experienced a rare coincidence. A coincidence isn't all that godly if it is rare... it is when they keep repeating that you should start paying attention. Rare coincidences happen. You interact with enough things and commonalities will occur.

 

[steve_bank]

Considering the sloppy rag tag solar system with asteroid strikes and the like I conclude there is no guiding force.

I think an intelligent force only normally intervenes a bit - it might not place a big priority on dealing with the problem you have.

That is the Christian god works in mysterious ways I do not comprehend argument.

As a design for Erath kind of life the universe sucks. I believe Our galaxy and another are on a collision course.

 

[excreationist]

Note the intelligent force I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have to be from outside of the universe - like in the movie Interstellar it could be from within the universe - but from the future. And/or it could be like Elon Musk believes - that there is a billions to one chance we aren't in a simulation. Though if retrocasuality is true then the simulation isn't just completely linear.

 

[steve_bank]

Note the intelligent force I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have to be from outside of the universe - like in the movie Interstellar it could be from within the universe - but from the future. And/or it could be like Elon Musk believes - that there is a billions to one chance we aren't in a simulation. Though if retrocasuality is true then the simulation isn't just completely linear.

Anything that exists and interacts with surrounding is is part of the unversed. If there is some other dimension or reality that can affect us then it is all part of the same reality. There can be no such thing as supernatural. By definition anything that exists is natural.

One house many rooms.

 

[Sarpedon]

Elon Musk is a nutcase and you can't believe what you see in movies.

And you never actually proved that you even know what the odds of us being in a simulation are, much less that they are billions to one.

My arguments against being in a simulation are much more credible than what you have said.

 

[excreationist]

Elon Musk is a nutcase and you can't believe what you see in movies.

And you never actually proved that you even know what the odds of us being in a simulation are, much less that they are billions to one.

Elon Musk says there is a billions to one chance that we are NOT in a simulation. Do you think it is impossible we are in a simulation? In general I think he is a genius. He got those odds by imagining that there would be a lot of simulations in the future.

My arguments against being in a simulation are much more credible than what you have said.

So is it impossible? Note that a simulation doesn’t literally need to simulate every particle in the universe.

 

[Keith&Co.]

He got those odds by imagining

Ah, well. Here i thought maybe he just pulled the number out if his ass. If he imahgined tech we do not yet have, then examined our so-called reality for evidence of technology he LITERALLY cannot be qualified to detect, that's a whole different kettle of sea-kittens.

 

[excreationist]

It is about Elon Musk’s *belief*.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8q854v/elon-musk-simulated-universe-hypothesis

"The strongest argument for us being in a simulation, probably being in a simulation is the following: 40 years ago, we had pong, two rectangles and a dot," Musk said. "That is what games were. Now 40 years later we have photorealistic 3D simulations with millions of people playing simultaneously and it's getting better every year. And soon we'll have virtual reality, augmented reality, if you assume any rate of improvement at all, the games will become indistinguishable from reality."

more evidence - time and space are quantised and instant communication between distant entangled particles. Apparently having a speed of light limits how much cpu would be required. And things depend on there being an observer. Also a simulation doesn’t need to always start from the start of universe or explicitly simulate every particle