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Nagel's Batty Explanation of the Mind-Body Problem

untermensche said:
You experience a brain created representation of the table from reflected energy that has nothing to do with tables.

Light is an anthropocentric term that describes the human reaction to the energy and nothing about the energy.
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what table?
 
none said:
untermensche said:
You experience a brain created representation of the table from reflected energy that has nothing to do with tables.

Light is an anthropocentric term that describes the human reaction to the energy and nothing about the energy.
Click to expand...

what table?
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The one that is heavy as you carry it.

The table that has mass but can't be experienced.
 
fromderinside said:
I've carried tables. So I can experience what it is like to do so. Fortunately my eyes, muscles, joints, and nervous system provides me information and from that memory to which I can refer when seeing a table.
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You need no memory to reach out and experience the resistance of the table.

Any information YOU (a mind) have is a brain creation you are experiencing.

The table is not in your head.
 
fromderinside said:
No one said the table was in my head. A wonderful thing about information is that it can be stored bit by bit in any substance that is capable of recording it if it is served by processes which can provide such information.
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The great thing about the creative brain are all the experiences it creates.

It creates sound when no such thing exists in the external world.

It creates tastes when molecules have no taste.

It creates color even though objects have no color.
 
fromderinside said:
Swammerdami I agree a being is conscious, has a brain and nervous system, etc.

However, consciousness is an aspect, attribute, of a being. It is not a separate thing, like are being parts brain and heart, from the being called consciousness. It's is the being's consciousness. Most of those here who use descriptors of parts like brain speak of it, the brain or consciousness, doing something that, in actuality, should be attributed to the being who is doing.

The brain does not create consciousness, consciousness doesn't do, etc. Consciousness is a construct it is not a thing. Is it a subjective thing if anything at all. Even as subjective the consciousness doesn't do create, or anything else beyond serving as a construct to frame notion. Don't bless it as being alive or even an actual part of the being. Hypothetical construct! No more.

That is what I call reductionist.

I agree with untermensche that humans and many mammals exhibit what we call conscious behavior. It's just that we can't package create in the construct. Color may be expressed by beings somewhat differently under similar conditions that is not proof that a construct, called conscious, creates anything. Creation, if there is such a thing among living beings is a being thing, being created.
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This is along the lines of what I was getting at above, but worded a little better.

Mentally most of us imagine that we are a unitary thing that perceives - hence why spirituality predominates across our history and culture, and even now we focus on how we are 'conscious' (what does that really mean?). But when you really observe and understand the functions of the body we are more like a multi-threaded, parallel processor that is constantly feeling and responding. But people have the feeling that they are a cohesive, acting agent (probably this is an evolved feature of our mental world).

At the end of the day angst over determinism seems to predominate, but most of us forget that we are the thing that is deterministic. We are the thing that is determining. Does a bird get angsty over being a bird, or does it just keep on being a bird?
 
Every spring over the past four or five years we get two geese here at lake Garrison in the spring who settle down and raise children. I believe they are from a flock that passes over about the same time every year that lost their way. They are clearly not happy beings since most every day they spent hours calling out over the region which is risky for prey where foxes and racoons abound.

Geese are notoriously single mate social beings. This last year there was only one goose. Settled, yes, no matting. Always calling. Did so for more than week then ceased. It may have left but I think someone will find it's Carcass about in the reeds some day.

You see there my conscious working, but, I think it says something more about the consciousness of geese.
 
It says something about the intellectual capacity of geese and their instinctual desire to be within the flock.

Humans also have the instinctual desire to be within the flock (the tribe).

There is safety and a much better chance to survive within the flock.
 
rousseau said:
...
At the end of the day angst over determinism seems to predominate, but most of us forget that we are the thing that is deterministic. We are the thing that is determining. Does a bird get angsty over being a bird, or does it just keep on being a bird?
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That's my objection to the a-determinists. Why would I want to be something other than what I am? Know thyself and you will discover both meaning and purpose.
 
Treedbear said:
rousseau said:
...
At the end of the day angst over determinism seems to predominate, but most of us forget that we are the thing that is deterministic. We are the thing that is determining. Does a bird get angsty over being a bird, or does it just keep on being a bird?
Click to expand...

That's my objection to the a-determinists. Why would I want to be something other than what I am? Know thyself and you will discover both meaning and purpose.
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Exactly. There is a kind of irony over acquiring knowledge and consequently feeling less free. Which goes to show that reason is only useful if you use it to seek out helpful and accurate perspectives, and not just fool yourself.

The Buddhist and Vedanta view will say that life is mostly clinging and illusion, and we become free when we stop clinging. << that's a sentence that's easy to read, but hard to really grasp and intuit into our everyday life.
 
untermensche said:
It says something about the intellectual capacity of geese and their instinctual desire to be within the flock.

Humans also have the instinctual desire to be within the flock (the tribe).

There is safety and a much better chance to survive within the flock.
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It's much more than instinctual. These individuals were behaving as they were missing something, conducting searches for flock and partner. These are not things that normally occur in flock species. Yes they have limitations, but we needn't be British ethologists need we? This is individual behavior leveraging on what is normal among this species. It is an act permitted by inborn tendencies but it is relatively unique. It, IMHO was conscious activity. And it was an act of a lonely pair.
 
A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

It is all instinctual behavior.

Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

As far as distressed geese go.

Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
 
untermensche said:
A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

It is all instinctual behavior.

Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

As far as distressed geese go.

Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
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you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning
 
none said:
untermensche said:
A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

It is all instinctual behavior.

Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

As far as distressed geese go.

Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
Click to expand...

you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning
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There is only one conditioning.

You see other humans living as couples and you know people that are part of a couple.

So you can become conditioned to see that as normal behavior.

As far as growth periods? They lead to the instinctual desire for sex. Adolescents can speak of their sexual frustrations.

But the growth periods don't lead to a desire for a single mate excluding all others.

That is cultural.

In early human societies the individual was raised by the tribe. Not raised solely by the parents. The father took place in raising the child by protecting and providing for the tribe. The mother and possibly other females took care of the needs of the child.

It was like chimp societies as far as parenting.

A child felt part of a tribe with a mother and possibly other females that took special care of them. They did not simply feel part of a small family.

Isolation into small families is not natural.

The tribe is natural. We long for the tribe.
 
untermensche said:
none said:
untermensche said:
A man seeks out his true love. He tirelessly courts her and wins her affection. They engage in sexually productive activity and have a child they attend to constantly.

I would say that none of that is willed behavior.

It is all instinctual behavior.

Many men wake up one day and wonder why did they did any of it when they meet and begin courting a mistress. Further instinctual behavior.

As far as distressed geese go.

Your guess to explain their behavior is as good as mine. The geese can't tell us what is wrong.

If we saw what stopped their behavior we might better understand what was distressing them.
Click to expand...

you're skipping puberty, adolescence, and conditioning
Click to expand...

There is only one conditioning.

You see other humans living as couples and you know people that are part of a couple.

So you can become conditioned to see that as normal behavior.

As far as growth periods? They lead to the instinctual desire for sex. Adolescents can speak of their sexual frustrations.

But the growth periods don't lead to a desire for a single mate excluding all others.

That is cultural.

In early human societies the individual was raised by the tribe. Not raised solely by the parents. The father took place in raising the child by protecting and providing for the tribe. The mother and possibly other females took care of the needs of the child.

It was like chimp societies as far as parenting.

A child felt part of a tribe with a mother and possibly other females that took special care of them. They did not simply feel part of a small family.

Isolation into small families is not natural.

The tribe is natural. We long for the tribe.
Click to expand...

do I gotta whip out my dick again?
 
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