• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Population

I heard from one of my right-winger friends that the reason for global warming is that we have more volcanoes erupting today. The extra volcanoes probably explains the rebound in whale populations too - at least if I'm a right winger.
 
My point is that if eight billion people will cause a climate disaster in twenty years through fossil fuel burning, then eight hundred million people will cause the same disaster in (just over) two centuries, ceteris paribus, so the problem isn't population - it's the ceteris that are not being prevented from being paribus.

It's too bad the power outage caused me to click Submit before I was ready. I refuted this claim in my next post.

21% of the world's electricity currently derives just from dams and wind turbines. All else equal, if the world's population were 21% what it is now, ALL electricity could derive from dams and wind.

Similarly, if India's population was half what it is now, I think water depletion would be much LESS than half what it is now. Simply point, the issue is SUSTAINABLE vs NON-SUSTAINABLE.

(I hope to go quietly now. I've hinted at some key points, and don't need to engage in interminable debate.)

If the population were 20% of what it is, would all of those dams have been built? It seems unlikely.

You are right about sustainability; But have done nothing to show that it's an insurmountable problem at current or projected population levels. There's got to be a limit, but to show that population is (or will become) unsustainable, you need to show that that limit is lower than the projected peak world population and resource use, even after all efforts have been made to prevent the limit from being reached by means other than population reductions.

If Earth can sustain a twelve billion population with nuclear power, massive recycling programs, and the forming of large environmental parks, for example, then the problem isn't population (which is projected to reach a lower peak than that), it's our failure to adopt nuclear power, massive recycling programs and the formation of large environmental parks.

To adopt those may well be very difficult. But surely we should have exhausted all the very difficult options before contemplating genocide?

The big problem I have with the 'overpopulation' crowd is their willingness to declare genocide (or mandatory birth control) as the only, and therefore first, resort. Forcible population reductions should be the very last resort.
 
Concrete, cardboard(!) and especially steel are materials that require huge amounts of energy to produce. (Cite.) With the magnificent hardwood forests of Southeast Asia largely removed, houses where I live are mostly built from steel-reinforced concrete. When you write "a huge number of humans can live well without harming the environment too much" are you suggesting that less steel reinforcement should be used in concrete houses?

The overwhelming majority of humans don't live in concrete houses.

But that's not really relevant.

As you say, it's not too relevant, but I'm curious about the percentages of houses by material. Google isn't very helpful.

Concrete houses are cheaper than wood houses in Thailand and very common in new construction. (Concrete houses are often supplemented with bricks.) India is another big country where wood is very expensive.

And, returning to the point I was making, steel — a material with huge energy cost — is very common in construction even without concrete

Maybe so. But the same applies - if we had a smaller population it would take longer to have the same energy use from steel making. But we would still reach the same end point, assuming that everything else is equal. And you need to burn carbon to make steel. Hydropower won't do it, because steel has to have carbon in it.

There are ways to make electricity and steel without carbon emissions, but they're expensive compared to burning coal, so we haven't yet adopted them. If population were lower, coal would take longer to become expensive due to the easily accessible stuff being used up, and the pressure to switch to more expensive alternatives would be less.
 
I heard from one of my right-winger friends that the reason for global warming is that we have more volcanoes erupting today. The extra volcanoes probably explains the rebound in whale populations too - at least if I'm a right winger.

Maybe. Anything's possible of you just make shit up.

But the existence of bad arguments for a position doesn't make the good arguments for that position any less good, so to refute my claims, you need to refute the arguments I make, not the easily defeated arguments you wish I was making.
 
I heard from one of my right-winger friends that the reason for global warming is that we have more volcanoes erupting today. The extra volcanoes probably explains the rebound in whale populations too - at least if I'm a right winger.

Maybe. Anything's possible of you just make shit up.

But the existence of bad arguments for a position doesn't make the good arguments for that position any less good, so to refute my claims, you need to refute the arguments I make, not the easily defeated arguments you wish I was making.

Your arguments are in support of the continuance of the human species at high and increasing population levels. I don’t doubt that the planet, with only incremental increases in technology could support hundreds of billions of humans*. But not much else concurrently. I can envision a lot of futures I would not want to inhabit.

* maybe trillions if we go full “brains in glass jars”.
 
According to Worldometers website the world population was increasing at a rate of 1.46% in 1994. In 2020 the rate had declined to 1.05% and the population was 7,794,798,739. The approximate yearly change in the rate has been a very steady -.02% over that period. Therefore we might assume it will take about 52 years to get to a zero growth rate if the trend continues. Someone with better math skills than me can calculate what the population will be after 52 years. I'm thinking about 8.43 billion, or 8% more than today.

(I missed this the first time. I consider myself better than average at arithmetic and find 10.313 billion to be the answer to your question. A simple way to approximate this, since 1.05%÷2 = 0.00525 is the mean growth rate in your model, would be 7.79 billion * (1 + 1.05%÷2) ^52 = 10.23 billion. NOTE: I am simply solving the arithmetic problem you present, not judging your model.)
 
I heard from one of my right-winger friends that the reason for global warming is that we have more volcanoes erupting today. The extra volcanoes probably explains the rebound in whale populations too - at least if I'm a right winger.

Maybe. Anything's possible of you just make shit up.

But the existence of bad arguments for a position doesn't make the good arguments for that position any less good, so to refute my claims, you need to refute the arguments I make, not the easily defeated arguments you wish I was making.

Your arguments are in support of the continuance of the human species at high and increasing population levels. I don’t doubt that the planet, with only incremental increases in technology could support hundreds of billions of humans*. But not much else concurrently. I can envision a lot of futures I would not want to inhabit.

* maybe trillions if we go full “brains in glass jars”.

No. My arguments are NOT in support of the continuance of the human species at high and increasing population levels; Nor have they ever been. That would be an easy set of arguments to refute, but as I am not making them, it would be futile to do so.

My arguments are in support of the fact that human population is rapidly approaching its peak, and will stop rising without further intervention at around the ten billion mark, in around three or four decades time; And further that the carrying capacity of the Earth (for humans living a moderately wealthy lifestyle such as that typical of the developed world today, leveraging our current technologies to ensure sustainability and effective recycling of resources) is considerably higher than the peak human population, rendering concern about population approximately as rational as concern about alien invasion, or giant monsters stomping on downtown Tokyo.

The idea that we need to worry about handling hundreds of billions, or even tens of billions, of humans is a hangover from mathematics done in the 1960s and '70s, before the wide availability of effective contraception controlled by women. It's persistence as an example of a plausible existential threat is now almost entirely driven by the very human inability to grasp that major trends have changed (essentially, conservatism; The wish for the present to be the same as the recent past) leavened with a dash of racist fear that "they" will overwhelm "us".

Paul Ehrlich had a point in 1968, and had no way of knowing that an invention just fourteen years earlier, which had only been available in a tiny number of places, to a tiny number of people, for seven or eight years at the time of his writing The Population Bomb, would completely eliminate the problem he could so clearly see.

By 1990, there was sufficient data to show that the crisis he envisaged had been averted. In the 2020s, there's no longer any excuse for rational people who care about the facts to still rate population as an important issue facing humanity. Not because the Earth's carrying capacity is far higher than Ehrlich thought it was (though it is); But because the Earth will never be asked to carry more than twelve billion people, assuming the very highest plausible uncertainty in the data, and probably will never need to carry more than ten billion.

Malthus was wrong. Ehrlich was wrong. They didn't have the information necessary to understand how their predictions would be prevented from coming to pass; Their fears were rational and reasonable, given the data that was available to them when they formulated their prophecies of doom. But we found and implemented a solution; The crisis has been averted, and we can and should now divert our attention to problems that still exist.
 
Meanwhile, although I tried to address this in conversation with bilby 3 months ago, I failed to emphasize the difference between sustainable and unsustainable consumptions.

If rainfall is adequate to allow X units of water to be diverted to agriculture without depleting water tables, but Z units are needed to support 6 million people where (for illustration) Z = 3X, then the quantity of depletion is 2X (3X-X). Cut the population in half, and the depletion isn't just halved. It drops to 0.5X (1.5X-X).

Similarly, suppose you have 1000 acres of farmland feeding 1500 people and requiring 3N units of fertilizer. If you only need to feed 500 people with the same land, you won't need N units of fertilizer: you may not need any fertilizer at all!

The amount of hydroelectric power generation capacity on the planet is NOT proportional to the population. To the contrary, it already exceeds what is sustainable. Dams depend on rivers, not people. Capacity of wind and solar polar are also unrelated to population.

Et cetera.

ETA: I see bilby has attempted to address this in a cross-post. His argument might be summarized as "ten billion is sustainable; 20 billion is not." But in fact we're only at 8 billion and there are already important shortfalls, e.g. water tables and biodiversity.
 
Meanwhile, although I tried to address this in conversation with bilby 3 months ago, I failed to emphasize the difference between sustainable and unsustainable consumptions.

If rainfall is adequate to allow X units of water to be diverted to agriculture without depleting water tables, but Z units are needed to support 6 million people where (for illustration) Z = 3X, then the quantity of depletion is 2X (3X-X). Cut the population in half, and the depletion isn't just halved. It drops to 0.5X (1.5X-X).

Similarly, suppose you have 1000 acres of farmland feeding 1500 people and requiring 3N units of fertilizer. If you only need to feed 500 people with the same land, you won't need N units of fertilizer: you may not need any fertilizer at all!

The amount of hydroelectric power generation capacity on the planet is NOT proportional to the population. To the contrary, it already exceeds what is sustainable. Dams depend on rivers, not people. Capacity of wind and solar polar are also unrelated to population.

Et cetera.

ETA: I see bilby has attempted to address this in a cross-post. His argument might be summarized as "ten billion is sustainable; 20 billion is not." But in fact we're only at 8 billion and there are already important shortfalls, e.g. water tables and biodiversity.

That's true; But it has been true for at least two centuries, and we have always solved such issues with technology, despite rapidly increasing population. With population stable, why would we expect not to be able to continue to improve our lot?

Today's population would have been unsustainable with the technology available fifty years ago, and that has been true at all times in the industrial age - but each year, the population sustainable with current technology has grown at a faster rate than population; And as population growth has slowed, technological growth has not.

We don't need hydroelectricity; We can use nuclear fission. It's not an infinite resource (but nothing is, so that's not a useful argument); It is however an inexhaustible resource, for any reasonable projection of demand. Twelve billion people, using electricity at twice the rate of today's average American, can be supplied with all of that electricity from fission fueled just by the currently extractable seawater uranium, until the cessation of tectonics on the planet. That's as sustainable as solar power (but safer, cleaner, and vastly more reliable).

With sufficient cheap power, and extant technology, no resource will run out except helium. Everything else is massively abundant in the oceans, atmosphere, and/or lithosphere, and just needs energy and demand for us to recycle, (re)concentrate and/or refine it.

Hydroelectric power is unsustainable, environmentally damaging, incapable of scaling up to our needs, and unthinkably dangerous. Nuclear fission has none of those issues.
 
... snip ...

If rainfall is adequate to allow X units of water to be diverted to agriculture without depleting water tables, but Z units are needed to support 6 million people where (for illustration) Z = 3X, then the quantity of depletion is 2X (3X-X). Cut the population in half, and the depletion isn't just halved. It drops to 0.5X (1.5X-X).

... snip ...
There is no shortage of water. There is a shortage of free water where masses of people decide to live. e.g. Southern California is a desert but 20 million people live there and complain about lack of water. OTOH there is more than enough fresh water to supply the planet's population with all they want easily accessible around Michigan's upper peninsula and a population of only ~300,000.

There are three easily available solutions, two of them bear a cost:
1. People can decide to live where the resource is plentiful. (The Great Lakes area for instance)
2. Water can be piped from where it is plentiful to where people want it.
3. Desalination plants can provide water for arid areas near coasts. (such as Southern California)
 
Last edited:
From the reporting water is becoming a problem pretty much everywhere. Over here the Colorado river is completely consumed.

Ca agriculture is running out of water.

Reduction in population is not a bad thing. Fewer people means less peole to work, wages will go up....sracasm.
 
OTOH there is more than enough fresh water to supply the planet's population with all they want easily accessible around Michigan's upper peninsula and a population of only ~300,000.

There are three easily available solutions, two of them bear a cost:
1. People can decide to live where the resource is plentiful. (The Great Lakes area for instance)
2. Water can be piped from where it is plentiful to where people want it.
3. Desalination plants can provide water for arid areas near coasts. (such as Southern California)
:consternation2: How on earth are you figuring a long-distance pipeline or a desalination plant bears no cost?


highway-signs-for-the-cities-of-marquette-munising-and-escanaba-in-B4MM6C.jpg

:D

 
OTOH there is more than enough fresh water to supply the planet's population with all they want easily accessible around Michigan's upper peninsula and a population of only ~300,000.

There are three easily available solutions, two of them bear a cost:
1. People can decide to live where the resource is plentiful. (The Great Lakes area for instance)
2. Water can be piped from where it is plentiful to where people want it.
3. Desalination plants can provide water for arid areas near coasts. (such as Southern California)
:consternation2: How on earth are you figuring a long-distance pipeline or a desalination plant bears no cost?


I didn't... maybe you read the post too quickly, or maybe didn't think I meant that those were the two options that did bear a cost.
 
I was just saying your first option bears the craziest cost of all. But a joke you have to explain is a joke that must have been pretty feeble.

:tomato:

Oh well, carry on...
 
n the 70s a philosophy prof I had talked about a state department conference he attended.

The gist of it was at some point in the future thh have nots will try to over run the haves. Witness our southern border and waves of refugees running through Europe.

The idea that there is plenty of water and just move to where it is, is worthy of Shaun Hannity and Tucker Carlson. Water shortage is a leftist fake news.
 
The idea that there is plenty of water and just move to where it is, is worthy of Shaun Hannity and Tucker Carlson. Water shortage is a leftist fake news.
You omitted the other options. If people want water then they either have to live where the water is or transport the water to where they want to live. There is no world shortage of water but there are a hell of a lot of people who live in an area (like deserts) where there is a lack of water... they need to import water. OTOH there are a hell of a lot of people who live in areas (like river flood plains) where there is too fucking much water during the spring floods.... they need to build flood protection. Life sucks like that. We don't live in "the garden of Eden" under the protection of some benevolent god.

It isn't too much global population that makes water scarce in some population centers. It is where that population center is. It isn't too much global population that makes some population centers subject to flooding. It is where that population center is.

Two thousand years ago the Romans handled their lack of sufficient water for their population centers by building aqueducts. Thousands of years before the Romans, the Sumerians supplied their population centers with water by channeling water. Today we handle the same problem by bitching and declaring that the world is coming to an end because "we are running out of water".
 
Problem: There's not enough water in Arizona.

Solution: Move 7.2 million people to Marquette MI.

:hysterical:

It must be amazing on a daily basis to live on the inside of some people's people's heads.
 
Problem: There's not enough water in Arizona.

Solution: Move 7.2 million people to Marquette MI.

:hysterical:

It must be amazing on a daily basis to live on the inside of some people's people's heads.

You missed the other option. The 7.2 million people in Arizona can pay to pipe water in from somewhere that there is water.

It is simple reality. If there is no water where you want to live then it needs to be imported or you will thirst to death. Do you have some magic that changes that reality?

So the choices are fairly straight forward if you live in an area where there is no water... I see three options:

1. Move to where there is water. (there are a hell of a lot of places where there is a hell of a lot of water)
2. Import water.
3. Thirst.

Feel free to offer a magic solution.

.
 
Last edited:
Problem: There's not enough water in Arizona.

Solution: Move 7.2 million people to Marquette MI.

:hysterical:

It must be amazing on a daily basis to live on the inside of some people's people's heads.

You missed the other option. The 7.2 million people in Arizona can pay to pipe water in from somewhere that there is water.

It is simple reality. If there is no water where you want to live then it needs to be imported or you will thirst to death. Do you have some magic that changes that reality?

So the choices are fairly straight forward if you live in an area where there is no water... I see three options:

1. Move to where there is water. (there are a hell of a lot of places where there is a hell of a lot of water)
2. Import water.
3. Thirst.

Feel free to offer a magic solution.

.

"Where you want to live"? Oh the luxury.
 
It is simple reality. If there is no water where you want to live then it needs to be imported or you will thirst to death. Do you have some magic that changes that reality?

So the choices are fairly straight forward if you live in an area where there is no water... I see three options:

1. Move to where there is water. (there are a hell of a lot of places where there is a hell of a lot of water)
2. Import water.
3. Thirst.

Feel free to offer a magic solution.

.
Actually there is another option, no magic involved.

4. Undo the reason there's no water. Stop effectively exporting it. (I'm looking at you, almond farmers.)
 
Back
Top Bottom