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The Apocalypse/Antichrist Argument

J

Jarhyn

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So, take this with a grain of salt seeing as I'm... Well, you can see my position quite clearly in other threads I sofar as I prescribe to the "Inverse Pascal's Wager" that God prefers atheists and agnostics, who live without respect to what they cannot know and rather do their best for the people in the world they CAN know.

But...

I do see an interesting argument I sofar as there is apparently a "shitty apocalypse" going on. Perhaps this may even belong in "presidential politics"... But something I am not seeing much is the argument that there is a God not because of aggregate prophecy but rather specific prophecy: that we are entering "spooky" territory with regards to prophetic accuracy concerning the antichrist and the end of days.

The problems I see with this are manyfold, not the least of which because of the "shoehorn hypothesis", namely that any prophetic list is "spooky" if you are persistent enough with your shoehorn, and also not the least of which being that this wouldn't change a thing about the rest of the bible potentially being the failed words of men, excepting perhaps the Book of John.

It also would mean that anyone who accepts this argument and does not also resist certain agendas is, literally in league with evil itself.

So, to the non-believers, how much further would this shitshow have to go before you would accept we are on the rails to apocalypse town and meeting God whatever that thing may be? What would your words be for him? And to the believers, what impact would such an understanding have on your belief with respect to the actions and positions you have taken in the last several years?
 
The thing about apocalyptic prophecies is that they tend to be pretty vague; I don't see anything in John's Apocalypse that are more true of the present than they have been of other generations that have gone before. There are always anti-Christs, there are always wars and rumors of wars. I do not find it useful to try and "predict the future" with reference to scriptural texts. That said, apocalyptic literature can be kind of comforting in turbulent times; it gives you a sense that you are part of a grander narrative than just a series of small losses and meaningful suffering; it reminds you that though we strive against malevolent forces more wicked and powerful than ourselves, we do not do so alone; being born into this world is stepping into a drama that is not ours alone, but also not our own to bear alone.

I don't agree with a read of the Apocalypse, by the way, that sees the victims of the Beast as in league with him. The devil was ever a deciever, yes? Some people seem to be constitutionally unable to resist a man with large, terrible hair and a doctrine of emotionally satisfying misanthropy.
 
doing their best for the people in the world they CAN know.

Sounds a lot like the 2nd of the two greatest commandments.

The 1st commandment which precedes it makes sense once you consider;
a) Where your neighbours came from
b) Why they deserve to be loved/respected

Apocalypse? LOL
Yep.
 
People love conspiracy theories and the apocalypse is the ultimate conspiracy theory that people have bought into for a few thousand years now. Every generation has seen 'evidence' in their time that the apocalypse was happening NOW.

The typical conspiracy theory is that there are specific forces (usually malign) that control events, presenting dangers to the world as they wish it to be. The apocalypse just raises those forces to the ultimate powers.
 
skepticalbip said:
People love conspiracy theories and the apocalypse is the ultimate conspiracy theory that people have bought into for a few thousand years now. Every generation has seen 'evidence' in their time that the apocalypse was happening NOW.

The typical conspiracy theory is that there are specific forces (usually malign) that control events, presenting dangers to the world as they wish it to be. The apocalypse just raises those forces to the ultimate powers.
Click to expand...

I do get a kick out of people asking me if I think we're in the end times.

But wouldn't the claim that there are gods be the ultimate conspiracy theory? John's apocalypse would be just more fake news. I'd give it an A for entertainment value and emotional appeal, not to mention literary excellence, but it just uses the ultimate conspiracy theory to tell its tale.
 
It becomes stupid/tragic (there needs to be an adjective that combines those two qualities) when the believers act on those beliefs. I recently read up on the Heaven's Gate cult to refresh my memory; this after hearing a Lewis Black monologue on the group in which he emphasized the fact that, at one point, their leaders were a man and woman who went by Bo and Peep.
As everyone knows, the cult ended up in a mass suicide because they believed the end was near (although there was some craziness about a comet coming by earth, and somehow they'd die and be swept up into some sort of paradise.) Thirty-nine of them killed themselves, including Bo (Marshall Applewhite). Peep had died years earlier -- I forget how. My favorite part of Wikipedia's article is the claim that the commune had taken out -- wait for it -- alien abduction insurance. Their policy covered not only abduction but impregnation by aliens and murder by aliens. If you're like me, this already raises several questions in your mind. Three questions, for me:
1- What, no rider for cavity search by aliens?
2- How does anyone file a claim on this policy?
3- What companies are offering this coverage? Can I get it with Obamacare? What does the Aflac Duck think of it???
 
Lion IRC said:
doing their best for the people in the world they CAN know.

Sounds a lot like the 2nd of the two greatest commandments.

The 1st commandment which precedes it makes sense once you consider;
a) Where your neighbours came from
b) Why they deserve to be loved/respected

Apocalypse? LOL
Yep.
Click to expand...
1:) nope. My neighbors came from from the same place as the most vile monsters in the universe that I may believe exists in reality: humanity itself.

2:)nope. people deserve to be loved and respected because they may, ostensibly, eventually accept doubt (which you, currently, do not), and because we wish them to love and respect us, and we must be the "good" which we wish to see in the world.

Whether or not that is done by a god or not is not something I will say is true; it is merely something I believe not for my own eternal sake, but because I would like the reality of the usefulness of the social paradigm to have been put there with intent. See the general religion thread for reference.

I actually have some choice words for any asshole who would do... This. Or who would make a "hell". I don't want forgiveness, either. Forgetting why I make the right choices can go right to... Well, hell. Along with anyone else who would set aside whatever pain drives them to be better and whatever drive pushes them to do more for everyone. Not just for christians, or people who YOU wanted to immigrate, or for people who believe just like YOU do. Or who believe like I do. Because I accept doubt. I AM WRONG. But I also strive to not continue being wrong the same way twice. You've been wrong the same way since I became aware of your existence.

My response to this thread? I'm just going to keep on being the same person I always have been even if the world is going to end. I'll fight the antichrist if there is one not because he's "the antichrist" but because I will not follow a leader who is a liar, or who kills people, or violates them the way I am seeing done.

As to those who are referencing "shoehorning"...

The thing that really stands out, to me, of all of the prophecies that could otherwise be general is the "seven hills each bearing his name" or however you seek to translate it. There are only seven towers that bear a name best left out of the thread. It's definitely spooky.
 
Them there Christians keep telling me god is omnipotent, all powerful, so powerful that we cannot comprehend how powerful God is. So why is Satan still on earth causing trouble?

God: "Satan! You have been a bad boy! I command you to go over there to that black hole and sit there for 10,000 years!"
Satan: "Ahhhhhhh, Dad!" Whines as he drudges off to his black hole.

So this whole anti-Christ - Satan nonsense is retarded nonsense. None of the goofball toxic Christians who believe this garbage have the sense God gave a goat. Same with this evil anti-Christ figure. banish him to hell and save us all a lot of trouble. why would a self respecting, all powerful, and omnipotent God tolerate such a critter?
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Them there Christians keep telling me god is omnipotent, all powerful, so powerful that we cannot comprehend how powerful God is. So why is Satan still on earth causing trouble?
Click to expand...

What does it say about satan and destiny in the bible? So many arguments about the bible, yet, you forget the story's theme, but then...

God: "Satan! You have been a bad boy! I command you to go over there to that black hole and sit there for 10,000 years!"
Satan: "Ahhhhhhh, Dad!" Whines as he drudges off to his black hole.

So this whole anti-Christ - Satan nonsense is retarded nonsense. None of the goofball toxic Christians who believe this garbage have the sense God gave a goat. Same with this evil anti-Christ figure. banish him to hell and save us all a lot of trouble. why would a self respecting, all powerful, and omnipotent God tolerate such a critter?
Click to expand...


...you sort of remember some gist of it, again - in an argument (or complaint) 'sigh'.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Them there Christians keep telling me god is omnipotent, all powerful, so powerful that we cannot comprehend how powerful God is. So why is Satan still on earth causing trouble?
Click to expand...

You've seen Star Trek.
The first half of most episodes involve technobabble explanations for why their super advanced technology, that solved an identical problem in a previous episode, is contra-indicated for this plot. Else the episode would be five minutes of plot. 50 minutes of the bridge crew watvhing the star-effect-screensaver.

Half of every apology involves the theobabble reasons that the omnipotent god doesn't snap his fingers and solve everything.

Suffering? Builds character.

Rape? Free will.

Satan's machinations? Ion storm.

Abortion? Heisenberg uncertainty opto-isolator circuits are overheating.

Bible says all true christain prayers are answered? Sometimes the answer is 'not yet.' But soon.

Firefly cancelled? You guys support gay marriage.
 
Superpowers are inevitably boring. An omnipotent character would be incredibly tedious to hear about - as soon as anything might upset or challenge their plans, they would simply fix that and move on.

Superman needs kryptonite to be a story worth following. Which is OK for his fans, because his susceptibility to this particular attack is canon. But the Abrahamic god is canonically omnipotent. Rendering satan, or any other adversary, impotent, pointless, and tedious.

Belief in an omnipotent entity inescapably implies that he has no opponents. The very existence of atheists is proof that no omnipotent gods exist that disapprove of atheism. The existence of suffering similarly proves that no gods exist that are both omnipotent and disapproving of suffering. And the claim that an omnipotent god exists who disapproves of satan (or of any other opponent, adversary, or enemy) is incoherent - no such adversary could exist contemporaneously with such a god.
 
bilby said:
Superpowers are inevitably boring. An omnipotent character would be incredibly tedious to hear about - as soon as anything might upset or challenge their plans, they would simply fix that and move on.

Superman needs kryptonite to be a story worth following. Which is OK for his fans, because his susceptibility to this particular attack is canon. But the Abrahamic god is canonically omnipotent. Rendering satan, or any other adversary, impotent, pointless, and tedious.

Belief in an omnipotent entity inescapably implies that he has no opponents. The very existence of atheists is proof that no omnipotent gods exist that disapprove of atheism. The existence of suffering similarly proves that no gods exist that are both omnipotent and disapproving of suffering. And the claim that an omnipotent god exists who disapproves of satan (or of any other opponent, adversary, or enemy) is incoherent - no such adversary could exist contemporaneously with such a god.
Click to expand...

It even has a literary trope: "Mary Sue".

Now, whether the enemy is a "satan" or perhaps merely just the culmination of social darwinism's fight against social ethics, that's a thing yet to be seen, though generally informed by the provenance of reality, such that it is, which indicates the latter is a fair bit more terrifying.
 
Lion IRC said:
DBT said:
The book of Job has Satan taking instructions from God.
Click to expand...

Everyone does.
...eventually.

Cooperate with the inevitable
Click to expand...

Saruman the White took instructions from Sauron. And see where that got him. Frodo and Samwise refused to take instructions from Sauron, and look where that got them. Surely there's something to be learned here?

Hint: Might does not make right. Like Barad-dur, the evil empire of the Roman Church will collapse into ruin.
.... eventually.
 
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