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The God Zoo

I was highlighting your (plural) good morals.
Totally irrelevant. It's a problem of logic and reason: the logical incompatibility of an all-good, all-powerful, all-present God and the amount of suffering in the world he created.

Which is relevant. You are disturbed by your good morals ...
No, none of this is about feeling a moral offense at God.

In the "real" world as you see it....there really isn't any God. so humans of that morality that God "doesn't" have... evil shouldn't be a problem.
The world's haphazard quality is exactly like any reasonable person would expect of a world that has no gods or demons in it. It blatantly has no divine or demonic entities doing anything with it. This puts a huge dent in trying to attribute how nature is, overall, to God or demons.

(Answer as honestly as you can: Don't at least "demons" make you scratch your chin a little and think "well, this view is a little bit fantasy-like"?)

Earlier I ws eluding to... doing evil is avoidable by not willing to do so.
Maybe an occasional psychopath "wills to do evil"... But mostly I just don't know what you're saying.

The incompatibility of an all-good God with suffering in the world is not resolved by saying the suffering is due to people's poor choices. Because the overall suffering far exceeds anything that humans have ever done and involves many innocents.
 
In a world without God's existence you should have then, been able to "do better." Get cracking lads!

In a world with a god's existence, there should never have been a need to "do better" nor would such a being allow for it not to already be "better." Congrats, you just proved there is no god.

He does act. Immediately? No, not always. But He always does and He will.

Congrats, you just proved there is no free will.

You and Learner need to talk, 'cause you both just blew each other's shit up.
 
It's always humans putting God under the microscope and demanding to know why God doesn't do something.

Well ... yes. You Christians are the ones making claims about God, so when he doesn't do something in line with those claims, it's correct to demand to know why. It's like if you say that someone sells milk in his store but every time anyone goes in there, he doesn't have any milk. This wouldn't mean that everyone else is the asshole if they start questioning your claim that this guy actually sells milk when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of milk ever being for sale in his store.

The key point to understand here is that NOBODY is putting God under a microscope. We are putting you and your claims about God under a microscope. It's like when people have a problem with Han Solo claiming he can do the Kessel Run in under twelve parsecs when that's a unit of distance and not time. Nobody is actually saying that Han Solo got something wrong there - we're saying that George Lucas got something wrong there since he's the one who wrote that Han would say that. Similarly, YOU are making a claim about God and we are questioning YOU about the basis of that claim. Nobody is directing a question at God ... you know ... because he's a fictional character from a storybook so that would be weird.
 
Lion IRC said:
He does act. Immediately? No, not always. But He always does and He will.
How do you know?

How do I know God doesn't always act immediately, on demand, according to our wishes? WUT?
I thought that was the central complaint made by atheists.

Lion IRC said:
Nobody can escape God's justice.
Which would we prefer? That murderers are always caught after they kill? Or that murders are always prevented before they occur?

God would prefer murders are prevented. See Exodus 20:13


Lion IRC said:
It's always humans putting God under the microscope and demanding to know why God doesn't do something.

How about putting the claims of theists under a microscope? Can we examine those?

Sure. And you should. I certainly do. And I regard atheism - a belief with respect to the existence of God - as just another form of theism. So I 'examine' their beliefs and assertions all the time.


Because certain theists make the claim that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-benevolent. And the existence of needless suffering in this world belies that claim.

Certain atheists have their own subjective ideas about what a 'benevolent' God ought to do and what He ought to allow/prevent. Eg. Same sex marriage, abortion, drug use, blasphemy, greed, lust...
They also want to argue about whether an all-knowing God really DOES know whats best.
And finally, they have this blatant double-standard whereby it's OK for (atheist) parents to bring children into this world, knowing full well that suffering (the ability to feel pain) is a part of life, and yet they do just that.
 
How do I know God doesn't always act immediately

Yes. How do you know?

God would prefer murders are prevented.

Then why doesn't he prevent them and why does he commit them? See just about any part of the Bible, but in particular Mark 14:35-39, where he supposedly begs himself to stop his own murder and then evidently refuses to do so. Whacky stuff!

What you meant to say was that your god apparently would prefer that we don't murder anyone, but it's perfectly ok for it to murder en mass. So it's do as I tell you, not as I do.

But then, again, you've just jettisoned free will, since if we are not capable of judging your god's actions--which necessarily entails full understanding of them and their moral weight--then we could not possibly choose of our own free will to "believe in" him (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

So we're stuck with a hopelessly Calvinist god at best and, again, bang goes free will. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.
 
The bible has its God, not only ordering killings and executions, but He Himself killing people, sometimes for trivial reasons.
 
God Will Put His Spirit In Us

Isaiah 36:26-8
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony
heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your
God.

Isaiah 59:20-21
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I
have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the
mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 24:6-7
6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build
them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be
their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall
be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for
they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive
their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 11:19
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out
of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and
I will be their God.

Ezekiel 36:26
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all
your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony
heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

1 Samuel 10:9
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those
signs came to pass that day.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Why doesn't this God act on his promises? Nobody would make bad moral decisions if God willed that. Obviously, these verses demolish all claims that is a matter of our free will. Solomon prays for wisdom and God grants that to him. Why not grant all wisdom? Moral wisdom at that? Satan? No Satan in the OT, not in the Pentateuch, not in the prophets. And is there was a Satan, why would God not stop Satan? Original sin? God can eliminate that by fiat at any time. The whole Christian theology is full of holes, bad reasoning and irrational claims.
 
It's very simple. Lion starts with the definition: God can only do that which is good. Therefore, whatever God does can only ever be good, ultimately, even if our perceptions of "his" actions are that they are decidedly not good.

That's the full extent of Lion's thinking. It's the cult circular logic failsafe.
 
The conditions of the world produces all sorts of creatures, some are killers others are prey. Humans have a range of attributes and behaviours, some are kind hearted and generous others selfish and mean, and probably every combination between.

A psychopath may have no qualms in killing someone, maybe gets pleasure out of it and sleeps like a baby afterwards. The brain of a psychopath is wired differently, they have little or no empathy.

Nor does anyone choose to be a psychopath.

Your God could, for instance, correct any imbalances in the brain from birth to enable empathy and balanced thought, thereby preventing a whole lot of suffering.

If a religious person had your level of understanding and knowledge sufficient to understand your post and appreciate what you are asking, he wouldn't be a religious person. The psychopaths are typically quite religious, they think they're in contact with gods and spirits, just like your typical religious person.
 
How do I know God doesn't always act immediately, on demand, according to our wishes? WUT?

That's not what you said. You said, "He does act. Immediately? No, not always. But He always does and He will.

So I'll ask again, this time with clarity. How do you know God will always act at some point in the future? I assume you don't claim perfect clairvoyance into the murky future. Is this an act of faith on your part?

And what do you mean by "act"? Shaking your finger at someone is an act, but is it justice? Is it the benevolence backed up by omnipotence?

Which would we prefer? That murderers are always caught after they kill? Or that murders are always prevented before they occur?

God would prefer murders are prevented. See Exodus 20:13.


Does God do his part to prevent murders? Other than shake his finger at people, and convince believers that someday, who knows when, murderers will be punished? And drown them when they are disobedient. And end their life when someone else is disobedient. Anyone reading the Old Testament would conclude that Jehovah places low value on human life.

How about putting the claims of theists under a microscope? Can we examine those?

Sure. And you should. I certainly do. And I regard atheism - a belief with respect to the existence of God - as just another form of theism. So I 'examine' their beliefs and assertions all the time.

I think we can leave the discussion about the proper definition of atheism for another thread.


Because certain theists make the claim that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-benevolent. And the existence of needless suffering in this world belies that claim.

Certain atheists have their own subjective ideas about what a 'benevolent' God ought to do and what He ought to allow/prevent. Eg. Same sex marriage, abortion, drug use, blasphemy, greed, lust...
They also want to argue about whether an all-knowing God really DOES know whats best.
And finally, they have this blatant double-standard whereby it's OK for (atheist) parents to bring children into this world, knowing full well that suffering (the ability to feel pain) is a part of life, and yet they do just that.

I don't understand your line of argument. So some people might have the wrong ideas about what God might or might not do--therefore God exists?

And is it your position that (atheist) parents would not guard their children from needless suffering if they had the power or the knowledge to do so? I'm afraid that argument isn't very compelling. What's the double standard? A parent can't protect her child from everything, and neither can God, therefore the child suffers?
 
That's not what you said. You said, "He does act. Immediately? No, not always. But He always does and He will.

So I'll ask again, this time with clarity. How do you know God will always act at some point in the future? I assume you don't claim perfect clairvoyance into the murky future. Is this an act of faith on your part?


Premise 1a - a truthful person with the unlimited ability to do what they say they will do...
Premise 1b - ...says they will act to punish unrepentant sinners
Conclusion - therefore they will act.

Does God do his part to prevent murders?

Yes

I think we can leave the discussion about the proper definition of atheism for another thread.

A-theism is form of theism

...is it your position that (atheist) parents would not guard their children from needless suffering if they had the power or the knowledge to do so?

Yes. Thats my position.
Atheist parents could prevent the suffering of their children - by not having children.
And yet they do.
So as far as theodicy goes, those parents either dont love their children or they do love them and have a sufficiently moral reason to justify their act of allowing such suffering to eventuate. (Kid falls over in the playground..kid suffers...what does a loving parent do? Ban their child from ever playing on any playground equipment?)
 
The conditions of the world produces all sorts of creatures, some are killers others are prey. Humans have a range of attributes and behaviours, some are kind hearted and generous others selfish and mean, and probably every combination between.

Did you seperate humans from the killers and prey sentence for some particular reason? Humans don't find anything shocking about animals hunting their prey and they would hate other humans to interfer with the natural way of the world.

Yes I concur, humans have a whole range of attributes and behaviours, which is possible to change by a whole range of affecting influences.

A psychopath may have no qualms in killing someone, maybe gets pleasure out of it and sleeps like a baby afterwards. The brain of a psychopath is wired differently, they have little or no empathy.

Nor does anyone choose to be a psychopath.

People are called psycopaths if they cause harm or they express their viewpoints about how they want to see done to other people. Hitler who was called a psycopath was capable of love ...to love his own and those who agree with him.

People who have no empathy or feelings who may also be "wired" differently can still live in the world and follow rules. They can intellectually understand even without any 'empathic feelings' that it would not be in their interest to cause harm to others, also understanding that there is NO reason to cause harm.

It's strange thinking about it now - people can get used to killing people who would not normally classify as psycopathic in their usual 'normal' everyday life circumstances.

Your God could, for instance, correct any imbalances in the brain from birth to enable empathy and balanced thought, thereby preventing a whole lot of suffering.

God has His reasons imo which you don't agree with.. I think God has faith many 'normal' people don't have to behave like psycopaths even though some do.
 
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Premise 1a - a truthful person with the unlimited ability to do what they say they will do...
Premise 1b - ...says they will act to punish unrepentant sinners
Conclusion - therefore they will act.

Well, that sounds like faith. You take it as a matter of faith that A) God is truthful, B) that he has an unlimited ability to act, and C) he will perform some hoped-for action sometime in the future, either in this life or in the next one (assuming there is one--another tenet of faith.)

One could say the same thing about my neighbor Bob. He's truthful--I've never heard him tell a lie. He says he can do anything he puts his mind to--and I have no reason to disbelieve him because I've seen him do a lot of things. And Bob told me that one day he will discover the cure for cancer. What should we conclude from that?


...is it your position that (atheist) parents would not guard their children from needless suffering if they had the power or the knowledge to do so?

Yes. Thats my position.
Atheist parents could prevent the suffering of their children - by not having children.
And yet they do.
So as far as theodicy goes, those parents either dont love their children or they do love them and have a sufficiently moral reason to justify their act of allowing such suffering to eventuate. (Kid falls over in the playground..kid suffers...what does a loving parent do? Ban their child from ever playing on any playground equipment?)

I said needless suffering. Falling over in a playground almost likely won't bring lifelong hardship. Letting a child chase a ball into traffic certainly will. I notice that all parents--atheist or otherwise--won't allow a child to run into traffic, even going so far as snatching the child out of harm's way--a clear violation of the child's free will.

But God will let a child run into traffic. Can you explain why?
 
Did you seperate humans from the killers and prey sentence for some particular reason? Humans don't find anything shocking about animals hunting their prey and they would hate other humans to interfer with the natural way of the world.

Genesis 1
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every
thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every
green herb for meat: and it was so.

Isaiah 11
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with
the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little
child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together:
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child
shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be
full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

If God, being omnipotent, can eliminate predation, and the Bible tells us he can do so and will do so, but God does not, then predation is shocking, demonstrating God is cruel and sadistic.

Hey God! Do something! Save the cute puppies, kittens, and lovable baby bunnies!
 
Did you seperate humans from the killers and prey sentence for some particular reason?

Role and function in the natural envronment. Humans may be predator and prey.


Humans don't find anything shocking about animals hunting their prey and they would hate other humans to interfer with the natural way of the world.

The issue is not about what humans do or do not find shocking. We are an inseparable part of the natural world, a set of conditions that shapes us, our minds, thoughts and behaviour. We respond according to our own condition, physical and mental in relation to the conditions of our environment.

Yes I concur, humans have a whole range of attributes and behaviours, which is possible to change by a whole range of affecting influences.

Change happens, different people have different ideas on what course to take, government, economy, religion, ideology, etc, and this itself is a source of conflict.


People are called psycopaths if they cause harm or they express their viewpoints about how they want to see done to other people. Hitler who was called a psycopath was capable of love ...to love his own and those who agree with him.

So?

People who have no empathy or feelings who may also be "wired" differently can still live in the world and follow rules. They can intellectually understand even without any 'empathic feelings' that it would not be in their interest to cause harm to others, also understanding that there is NO reason to cause harm.

A lack of empathy, amongst other brain conditions, has consequences regardless of intellect:


On the neurology of morals
''Patients with medial prefrontal lesions often display irresponsible behavior, despite being intellectually unimpaired. But similar lesions occurring in early childhood can also prevent the acquisition of factual knowledge about accepted standards of moral behavior.''

Prefrontal Cortex damage:

''The 20-year-old female subject studied by Damasio et al. was intelligent and academically competent, but she stole from her family and other children, abused other people both verbally and physically, lied frequently, and was sexually promiscuous and completely lacking in empathy toward her illegitimate child. In addition, the researchers say, "She never expressed guilt or remorse for her misbehavior'' ''Both of the subjects performed well on measures of intellectual ability, but, like people with adult-onset prefrontal cortex damage, they were socially impaired, failed to consider future consequences when making decisions, and failed to respond normally to punishment or behavioral interventions. "Unlike adult-onset patients, however," the researchers say, "the two patients had defective social and moral reasoning, suggesting that the acquisition of complex social conventions and moral rules had been impaired." While adult-onset patients possess factual knowledge about social and moral rules (even though they often cannot follow these rules in real life), Damasio et al.'s childhood-onset subjects appeared unable to learn these rules at all. This may explain, the researchers say, why their childhood-onset subjects were much more antisocial, and showed less guilt and remorse, than subjects who suffered similar damage in adulthood.''


God has His reasons imo which you don't agree with.. I think God has faith many 'normal' people don't have to behave like psycopaths even though some do.

It's not a matter of what I 'agree with' but the relationship between one set of values and another set values. The bible itself describes what its God values in terms of morality, yet the bible itself describes God trampling all over these very same values...which presents a contradiction. There lies the problem.
 
In Plato's "Laws - Book X", Plato list arguments to believe in God aimed squarely at atheists.

One of them is what I call "The Good Workman Theory". We judge a good workman by his ability to finish a job and to do that job competently. Plato states that God would be a very good workman, and would never leave a job undone or poorly done. So if a person is good and innocent, but suffers in this life, it is not because god is doing a poor job. In a future life, god, being a good workman" will make things right, finish the job. Of course the fact is innocent and good people have bad things happen to them. but the idea that God will make things alright in a future life is wishful thinking. It most certainly is not a proof God exists. and besides, if God can't do a job properly in this life, why would we expect in a future life he will do any better? Wishful thinking. Half-assed theorizing. And the fact God often does not help in this life strongly suggests God does not exist.

Tired old theological arguments never die.
 
In Plato's "Laws - Book X", Plato list arguments to believe in God aimed squarely at atheists.

One of them is what I call "The Good Workman Theory". We judge a good workman by his ability to finish a job and to do that job competently. Plato states that God would be a very good workman, and would never leave a job undone or poorly done. So if a person is good and innocent, but suffers in this life, it is not because god is doing a poor job. In a future life, god, being a good workman" will make things right, finish the job. Of course the fact is innocent and good people have bad things happen to them. but the idea that God will make things alright in a future life is wishful thinking. It most certainly is not a proof God exists. and besides, if God can't do a job properly in this life, why would we expect in a future life he will do any better? Wishful thinking. Half-assed theorizing. And the fact God often does not help in this life strongly suggests God does not exist.

Tired old theological arguments never die.

They're emotional arguments, not rational arguments. Is it any different than hoping Santa will bring you more and better presents next year? Placing one's hopes in soap opera, magical creatures that live in space isn't much of a plan for life.
 
In a future life, god, being a good workman" will make things right, finish the job. Of course the fact is innocent and good people have bad things happen to them. but the idea that God will make things alright in a future life is wishful thinking. It most certainly is not a proof God exists. and besides, if God can't do a job properly in this life, why would we expect in a future life he will do any better? Wishful thinking.

Revelation 21 says that heaven is 1500 square miles of dazzling developments, with walls of jasper and buildings of gold. But, from what I understand, the earliest text of Revelation admits that there is a terrible, uncontrolled problem with lice and bedbugs, that the trash is never collected, and that the gold condo they give you will probably have major structural flaws and you'll end having to contract out a shitload of work. And they have murder hornets, just like earth. (I didn't actually track down this original text, but cut me a break, I'm an atheist, so I spend most of my time sinning -- we call it recreation.)
Dan Barker of FFRF once started his opening remarks at a believer/atheist debate by citing the two morons who committed the Columbine high school massacre. (Were they Kleboldt and Harris? I forget, and I don't want to honor their memory by looking it up to check my spelling.) Anyway, his illustration was this: if you were part of the inner circle and these two boys had told you what they were about to do, and then you witnessed them driving off with their car full of guns and explosives, you'd be fully complicit in their crimes if you did nothing about it. Imagine society's scorn if it later came out that someone could have phoned the police, and chose not to. Imagine the legal consequences. You would be ostracized as a terrible person. Yet believers have no trouble with their image of a loving, compassionate, merciful god looking down on this and simply allowing it to play out. (In the Book of Job, he pretty much does this as a bar bet.)
 
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