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The root of Christianity

DrZoidberg

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I'm taking myself through the podcast series, Litterature and History, which is about ancient literature. After doing a synopsis of each piece he explains the context.

https://literatureandhistory.com/index.php/episode-040-hellenism-and-the-birth-of-the-self

In the linked episode he has an entire episode where he doesn't sum up a story, but just has an episode of context, explaining the difference of literature, religion and sense of self from before and after Alexander the Great.

He mentioned something which stood out to me.

Before Alexander the Great religion was collective. God punished cities and villages collectively. Empires were on the whole well run and of mutual benefit. Enter Alexander the Great. A military genius, but incompetent ruler and useless at book keeping. Where ever he showed up the economy was ruined, and vast numbers of people were sold into slavery for the flimsiest of excuses. Only so he could keep his army bankrolled. Seizing wealth and selling people into slavery was how he kept the Macedonian economy going. The way he held onto power was through terror. The ever looming threat of being sold into slavery kept people under Alexander, or one of his generals, obedient. If they had slave economies before Alexander, it was nothing compared to the economy after Alexander.

After Alexander died and his generals chopped up his territories between them, turned on each other and then perpetuated the Alexandranian way of fighting wars for 300 years Creating an incredibly turbulent and violent period with little stability. Then the Romans came and stabilized matters. But by then the old ways were dying. Cosmopolitanism was the way of the future. Local cults were something of the past.

Plays before Alexander could be scathing criticisms of politicians or the lampooning of men of power. After Alexander plays was about trivial personal matters that wouldn't offend anyone. It simply wasn't safe to annoy your superiors.

Sending people (slaves) back and forward across the empire created cosmopolitan identities. Nobles no longer lived in the villages they ruled over. But lived in the capital, close to the power. They weren't apart of their native community. They were individuals. They had their own personal identity.

Before Alexander religion was predominantly local cults where the gods inhabited statues in the village temple. You had to go there to talk to the gods. After Alexander religion was increasingly personal gods you could speak to directly. Because the chances that you were currently living in your home village wasn't great.

Before Alexander people didn't believe in much of an afterlife. They believed that Earthly life was the main event. After Alexander life was so harsh and brutal that people needed to believe there was more to life than this Earthly shit life.

He talked about it as if this is well established fact. It's the first time I hear about this connection between Alexander the Great's brutality and the spread of personal religion and thus the birth of the thinking which later became Christianity.

Is it established fact? Or is it just another theory?
 
We choose the gods we need. It really is that simple. Slaves had horrible lives with little to look forward to....so a life after death in heaven sounds calming.
 
Should we think of Alexander as a person or as an event? Did Alexander cause things to change or did things changing cause Alexander? Does a person make history or does history make a person?

It's best we don't place too much importance on the individual, rather look at the forces and conditions operating that brought about the behavior we associate with given persons. The life of George Washington, for example, could have taken many different paths. He could have been another tobacco farmer and slave owner deserving of a footnote in the historical record had it not been for forces totally out of his control. U.S. Grant is another example.

We're people, we have a tendency to glorify our own.
 
Should we think of Alexander as a person or as an event? Did Alexander cause things to change or did things changing cause Alexander? Does a person make history or does history make a person?

It's best we don't place too much importance on the individual, rather look at the forces and conditions operating that brought about the behavior we associate with given persons. The life of George Washington, for example, could have taken many different paths. He could have been another tobacco farmer and slave owner deserving of a footnote in the historical record had it not been for forces totally out of his control. U.S. Grant is another example.

We're people, we have a tendency to glorify our own.

I'm also a historic materialist and believe in systems rather than people.

But in this case, I think, the person is important.

It's rare that a person both has the qualities of a brilliant military commander (one of the world's greatest in all of history) as well as being so utterly incompetent when it came to actually running the empire he acquired. Usually a person good at one is good at the other. In many ways it's the same skills. Not only that but he surrounded himself with generals who also had those same qualities. Wherever Alexander or any of his generals ruled the economy took a nosedive and they became chaotic and dangerous. Law and order collapsed. Under the Persians nobody had to worry about your village being raided by pirate slavers. This was an endemic problem under the Helenic rulers. Philosophy, literature and cultural life flourished in the pre-Alexandrian Mediterranean. In the Helenic Mediterranean very little new was produced. It was all just rehashing and restaging of works produced before Alexander. Artistic creativity didn't get going again until after the Romans were in charge.

Only Ptolemy managed to create a stable and well functioning bureaucracy. But then again, he ruled the most lucrative province. He had the easiest job.

It was because of the sheer incompetence of these guys that gave the opportunity to Rome to conquer them. Which they did with astonishing rapidity. The Romans, by contrast, had their shit together.
 
We choose the gods we need. It really is that simple. Slaves had horrible lives with little to look forward to....so a life after death in heaven sounds calming.

This is about it. It's good to think of religion like a recipe that evolves, and fills the shape of it's vessel (society). When a new idea comes up that people like it sticks, and spreads. Heaven and an afterlife is one of the selling points of Christianity and why it propagated so widely.

I don't think people didn't care about death or an afterlife prior to Christianity (and certainly the concept existed around the world long before then), but when it came up many communities liked what Christianity was offering.
 
We choose the gods we need. It really is that simple. Slaves had horrible lives with little to look forward to....so a life after death in heaven sounds calming.

This is about it. It's good to think of religion like a recipe that evolves, and fills the shape of it's vessel (society). When a new idea comes up that people like it sticks, and spreads. Heaven and an afterlife is one of the selling points of Christianity and why it propagated so widely.

I don't think people didn't care about death or an afterlife prior to Christianity (and certainly the concept existed around the world long before then), but when it came up many communities liked what Christianity was offering.

It's also a terribly simple religion compared to the complexity and multiple personalities involved in competing religions.

Someone was talking about Therapeutic Moralistic Deism somewhere hereabouts. Most "Christians" today are just that.
 
We choose the gods we need. It really is that simple. Slaves had horrible lives with little to look forward to....so a life after death in heaven sounds calming.

That was not the particularly true for the ancients but might apply to modern slaves.

Have you wondered why no sage or mystic, not even Jesus, ever badmouthed slavery?

They did not because they could not offer anything better.

Slavery was the ancient social safety net.

Regards
DL



Regards
DL
 
The root of Christianity was the Greek Chrestianity.

The bible is a consolidation of many belief systems, just as thje Jewish religion is a combination of older belief system, mostly from Sumer and Egypt.

Regards
DL
 
And Gnostic Christianity based somehow on Jesus is a combination of beliefs?
 
The root of Christianity was the Greek Chrestianity.

The bible is a consolidation of many belief systems, just as thje Jewish religion is a combination of older belief system, mostly from Sumer and Egypt.

Regards
DL

Do you have an argument? Why do you believe this?
There are texts where the "e" has ben overwritten with an "i". Mountainman where are you? :)
 
And Gnostic Christianity based somehow on Jesus is a combination of beliefs?

Exactly what the bible shows, by design.

We use the Chrestian parts that Christianity usurped and made their own.

Do there remind you of a supernatural god or yourself as god of the more esoteric ecumenist, or more of an Eastern mystic teaching?

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL
 
The root of Christianity was the Greek Chrestianity.

The bible is a consolidation of many belief systems, just as thje Jewish religion is a combination of older belief system, mostly from Sumer and Egypt.

Regards
DL

Do you have an argument? Why do you believe this?

For many reasons. Mostly history, logic and reason and how so many things match with what the Jews wrote.

Just look at the end of the Book of the Dead and you see the basic 10 Commandments.

Tom Harpur and a number of authors/scholars have also written of this.

Regards
DL
 
The root of Christianity was the Greek Chrestianity.

The bible is a consolidation of many belief systems, just as thje Jewish religion is a combination of older belief system, mostly from Sumer and Egypt.

Regards
DL

Do you have an argument? Why do you believe this?
There are texts where the "e" has ben overwritten with an "i". Mountainman where are you? :)

Again you show a thinking mind.

That Mountainman site is a hard read.

I could not find conclusive data to show how Gnostic Christianity came out of esoteric Christianity and Judaism.

We both put man above god. Fitting that given that we invented and created all our gods.

Regards
DL
 
And Gnostic Christianity based somehow on Jesus is a combination of beliefs?

Exactly what the bible shows, by design.

We use the Chrestian parts that Christianity usurped and made their own.

Do there remind you of a supernatural god or yourself as god of the more esoteric ecumenist, or more of an Eastern mystic teaching?

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

The usual theo-babble.

Apparently you use the same 'Chinese menu' approach to Christianity. Pick one from column a and one from column b..

I always thought there was a homosexual theme to the gospels. You reject divinity but you love a man from 2000 years ago based on a few lines in what was an obviously embellished crafted narrative. From the gospels if anything Jesus was arrogant and craved attention. Love Me!!

BTW, do you keep kosher and stone adulterers? Jesus did not suften Mosaic Law, in fact he reinforced it saying Jews had strayayed. .
 
The rise of Christianity in particular

The rise of Christianity in particular

https://literatureandhistory.com/index.php/episode-075-dusk-and-starlight

Same podcast. Now I've gotten to the fall of Rome and the rise of Christianity.

He makes another statement as if it's a well established fact as to why Christianity itself rose to prominence. He also ties it into why the empire fell apart.

His arguments are as follows:

1) Christian doctrine is nothing special in the Roman world. The idea that you should deny the bodily pleasures and nourish the soul is deeply Greco-Roman and goes all the way back to the Pythagoreans ca 600 BC. These beliefs are shared by Roman theists and atheists alike (ex. Stoics).

2) As peace and stability became the norm (50 - 200 AD) opportunities for social advancement stopped. Social structures became rigid. Peace and stability lead to exploding wealth among the rich, which didn't benefit the poor. Peace led to their numbers swelling. Wealth was increasingly concentrated at the top.

3) Over time Rome became increasingly cosmopolitan. Peace allowed people to travel more and communicate more. The difference between a Roman citizen and non-citizen became blurred. Which made the social rigidity and prominence of Roman culture harder to justify. Membership in a cult allowed the devotee to find food and shelter no matter where they travelled in the empire. Christianity was only yet another of these. In this period, these were all very similar. So cult memberships exploded.

4) Of all the cults Christianity was the only cult saying that it was not only ok to be poor, but that the poor were morally superior to the rich. Which in an empire increasingly consisting of disempowered poor people meant that the Christian cult had the most appeal to most people. In spite of, in every other way, being identical to most other cults.

5) From about 200 AD the Roman empire was rupturing from inside. The above stated factors was ripping it apart. Not to mention that the empire was over-extended and couldn't effectively defend it's borders anymore. The Roman empire became violent and unstable. At this point membership to a cult became increasingly important and increasingly vital for sheer survival. For the poorest they often only had one option available to them, Christianity.


He didn't mention this but I remember from other lectures that a factor why Constantine converted the entire empire was because of the Parabalani. A sort of private militia who had taken a vow of poverty. In practice they were basically a free army to any rich person who had converted to Christianity. All he needed to do was to house them and feed them. They would use them to attack rich non-Christians and disrupt their businesses. Who, due to being rich, were inherently suspect. No other justifications were needed for attacking them. This created a huge push for rich Romans to convert. A prime motivation for Constantine in converting the empire was to put a stop to the power, (and use and abuse) of the Parabalani.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabalani

The idea that the Roman empire was decadent and corrupt and therefor fell apart was an idea as old as Rome itself. Going on and on about how horrible the lazy and decadent are, and how they were a threat to the existence of Rome, can be found in almost every Roman social or political text ever written. In all ages, being tough and living a simple life and working hard, as well as being generous toward the poor, was always the prime Roman virtue (as well as ancient Greek before them). Them going on about it was simply the ultimate bogey man. And this was copied right into Christianity. Roman society before and after Constantine's conversion didn't change. The Christian virtues were the same virtues that had always been upheld as the highest in Rome. The difference lies in the details and only really mattered to philosophers.

The biggest shift in Roman culture was before and after Augustus' rise to power (31 BC). That's when free speech died. And literature becomes less interesting. Less attacks on specific people. More general vague concepts. Texts become increasingly moralistic and gush about the virtues of emperors.

The reason why we have heard so much about Roman decadence is because Romans were horrified about it at that time and loved gossiping about it in horror. Especially the alleged decadence of their emperors. Something later Christian converts continued to do. Again, nothing changed. Today of course we love emphasizing the decadent lifestyles of the Romans because saying that they had about the same moral values as us, (except when it comes to slavery) isn't particularly interesting to talk about.

I found all this quite illuminating and convincing.
 
With this going on, who can you believe?

On historical questions? Primary sources, when possible. Consistent, context-considerate reasoning, when not.

There is no question on the bible being a consolidation of many belief systems.

You should remember all the primary documentation that the inquisitors burned, so as to keep others ignorant of the more moral ideologies that were alive and well before the murdering Christians had their way.

Regards
DL
 
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