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They didn't recognize resurrected Jesus

If the purpose of Jesus was to die for the sins of the world, rather than a betrayal, the role of Judas was to help fulfill the mission, playing his role in the Divine Drama.

Exactly!

Which is why, if the gospel accounts are true, and if the trinity theory (which came later) is factual and true and REAL, then Judas could not be responsible for taking the 30 pieces of silver and betraying the Lord, which means quite a few things:

  • Judas, like virtually every other living, conscious entity, at least on Earth, if not in the whole dang universe, is fucked, no matter what.
  • God, if They are omnimax (all powerful, present everywhere, and all knowing: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient [knowing whatever there is that can be known, meaning that Calvin's manifestly frightening conception of God was correct: preordination, predestination, all true]), and if They are the Creator and sustainer of everything that exists: uncreated, the Prime, Unmovable Mover, etc; and if They are actively involved with every facet of every single thing or event that happens in the universe - deep breath...is evil: a malignant, horribly sadistic being. Which means every living, conscious human is fucked. Assuming this version of god would not send any creature to hell if they could literally NOT accept Christ as their lord and savior. It seems silly to even bring it up, the idea being so monstrous, but I believe there are true believers who think that infants, or people with serious cognitive disablilities, even people who lived BEFORE Jesus was born, wind up in hell, because they were not baptized.
  • Determinism (God or no god), if true, meaning that there is literally no possibility of choosing to do otherwise in ANY instance, means that no animal, human or chipmunk or beetle, is responsible for what they do.
 
It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).
 
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It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).

Did they all choose their own roles? Thomas decided to play the 'doubting Thomas,' Judas the betrayer,' Peter the Rock, etc?
 
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Reactions: WAB
It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).

Did they all choose their own roles? Thomas decided to play the 'doubting Thomas,' Judas the betrayer,' Peter the Rock, etc?

What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAB
It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).

Did they all choose their own roles? Thomas decided to play the 'doubting Thomas,' Judas the betrayer,' Peter the Rock, etc?

What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.

Oh, please. The disciples are less realistic than Jesus.

Trump iterally has followers already convinced he can pull off miracles. Praying to him.
Every one of the Christ's followers argued with him EVERY miracle.
No one can do that!
I can.
No way!
Way!
Nope!
...Jesus does his thing...
Whoa! You really ARE God!
Toldja.

Repeat next miracle.... real people wpild have begun accepting his claims, eventually.
 
It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).

Did they all choose their own roles? Thomas decided to play the 'doubting Thomas,' Judas the betrayer,' Peter the Rock, etc?

What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.

Okay, but did God preordain that they would make that decision? Which means before they were born, as you know.

In light of omniscience, I can kinda/sorta work my brain around a being knowing what another being will do in the future, based on probability and magnitude: scientists can predict what a rat will do after a gazillion (give or take a few) experiments, though they cannot be absolutely certain that one rat (after the first gazillion) will do what they predict. But an omniscient being would know, with absolute certainty.

In light of omnipotence, God can influence anyone anywhere, at anytime (see below), in the universe; so, I cannot remove God from responsibility for whatever happens, anywhere, to anyone or anything.

In light of omnipresence, meaning, I believe, that God is literally in ALL places, at ALL times, meaning all individuals, any region on Earth, and any region or atom or inch of empty space in the universe, anywhere, all the time, simultaneously, I cannot remove God from responsibility for whatever happens, anywhere, to anyone or anything, since God is omnipotent (see above).

The main problem, which I left out of my last comment (because I am terribly forgetful and a numbnuts :facepalm: ), is the idea of omnibenevolence. If God is all loving, all forgiving, all merciful, then He She or They, what or whoever, cannot be less loving, less forgiving, and less merciful than I am, one of his pitiful creatures. If I am aghast at the idea of a superior being purposefully and autonomously causing another being to suffer FOREVER, with no prior reason or event having wholly caused and determined it (which such a being would be capable of given an ordinary layman's conception of free will), then an omnibenevolent entity would be far more aghast than I could ever be, or ought to be, in my tiny little bleeding-hearted opinion.

I will pass over* (get it?) my idea of omnijokescience (OM/neh/JOKE/shints): the idea that God MUST be the funniest being in the entire universe. If God is infinite, and contains infinite attributes (see Spinoza, below), then God is necessarily much funnier than I am, and even funnier than Zero Mostel, Steve Martin, Richard Prior, or even Brian Regan. Right? And he must absofrigginlutely be funnier than Tom Brokaw, the Pope (any of 'em, except perhaps Pope Hilarious) or the wretchedly unfunny Bill Maher. Right? :D

Of course, I could be utterly wrong, and some super-duper theological wizard of a human has this all figured out and has explained it in detail, understandable to all - which I imagine such a great wizard of theology ought to do, to the best of their ability, lessen the stupid folk and the various numbnutses of the world have it bass-ackwards, and could potentially influence the innocent. But if such a person exists - and I have read a lot of apologists, Craig and Plantinga, and many others - I am as yet unaware of such a person.

I do think there is a person I know of who explained his conception of God in a way that geniuses and numbnutses alike could understand, if they bothered to read his work closely, and that person was Spinoza. Naturally, there is a great deal of division among scholars about what exactly that conception was, even among Spinozists.. But this is inevitable.

Einstein famously said, "I believe in the God of Spinoza"; but that didn't make him a theist, as some like to claim. Or a Spinozist, for that matter.

The philosopher Hegel famously said, "Spinoza wrote the last indisputable Latin masterpiece, and one in which the refined conceptions of medieval philosophy are finally turned against themselves and destroyed entirely. The fact is that Spinoza is made a testing-point in modern philosophy, so that it may really be said: You are either a Spinozist or not a philosopher at all."

Many people insist that Spinoza was an atheist, that his conception of God was driven primarily by the concern that he could have been killed for being an atheist. But he insisted that he was not an atheist, and if one reads his letters in particular, one can see how busily he goes about defending his God concept. Even to close friends who so much as intimated it, he could get fiery, but he was never shaken, and never swerved from his ideas.

As a Jew, he knew Hebrew inside and out, even wrote a book on it; he wrote in Latin and Dutch as well. He was offered a chair at a university, but declined. He made his living as a lens-grinder, because he wanted to devote as much time and mental energy to his writing. He was not interested in gaining wealth, though he understood and declaimed the value of money and the importance of free trade. He was not a Christian, but he defended and explained the gospels in his own way: without prejudice, and without fear.



*Crap, I didn't pass over it at all!
 
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It may not be so bad, depending how one sees it. :)

But I also agree too that he played his 'role' in the narrative, so to speak. A role.. he chose for himself! Judas is understood in context to be a reprobate ( he didn't ask for forgiveness etc.).

Did they all choose their own roles? Thomas decided to play the 'doubting Thomas,' Judas the betrayer,' Peter the Rock, etc?

What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.

"Ending up with" isn't exactly a case of choosing to play the role of Judas the traitor (committing suicide), Thomas the doubter, etc.....because none of them would have actually known what they were getting into.
 
Learner seems to know the why f peole mentioned briefly in an old short text. How des one derive knowledge of exactly who those pole were and why they did what they did?

This line kicked off by Rea reinforces the idea of the gospels as intentional fiction. It reads like soap opera. W know where to cheer and where to cry.

I keep coming back to our modern docu-drama. Loosely based on some general facts and a lot of literary license. Fabricated composite characters to create a narrative. The movies Cleopatra and 10 Commandments.
 
What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.

"Ending up with" isn't exactly a case of choosing to play the role of Judas the traitor (committing suicide), Thomas the doubter, etc.....because none of them would have actually known what they were getting into.

I'd say it's more like... "Judas 'did not forsee' that there'd be 30 pieces of silver offered to him to betray Jesus, from the start." He chose to accept the 30 pieces of silver when that moment of time came up later.

It is easily read that the deciples knew they'd be on a tough road following Jesus. The roles as we are defining or putting it here, are simply decision making situations, as we read on, resulted from the everyday interactions and experience throughout their journey.
 
What ever roles they ended up with... they had all made the decision to follow Jesus on their own accord.

"Ending up with" isn't exactly a case of choosing to play the role of Judas the traitor (committing suicide), Thomas the doubter, etc.....because none of them would have actually known what they were getting into.

I'd say it's more like... "Judas 'did not forsee' that there'd be 30 pieces of silver offered to him to betray Jesus, from the start." He chose to accept the 30 pieces of silver when that moment of time came up later.

It is easily read that the deciples knew they'd be on a tough road following Jesus. The roles as we are defining or putting it here, are simply decision making situations, as we read on, resulted from the everyday interactions and experience throughout their journey.

Actors, having access to a script, understanding the play and their role in it, are able to choose to play their part in the Play, or decline. They have the information to make an informed decision. The disciples as participants in a drama that was not of their own choosing had no idea of where their decision to follow Jesus would take them.
 
(As long as we're pretending this stuff is real...) What about the 2000 Gadarene swine that got possessed and jumped into the sea? Free will? Predestination? And, if they could be possessed by evil spirits, could they also be sent to hell? In that case, would hell become one big BBQ?
 
(As long as we're pretending this stuff is real...) What about the 2000 Gadarene swine that got possessed and jumped into the sea? Free will? Predestination? And, if they could be possessed by evil spirits, could they also be sent to hell? In that case, would hell become one big BBQ?

"Look, swine have a cloven foot and don't eat the cud, hence, hell, no? It's all in the manual. People in hell gotta eat, or am I wrong? Of course I'm not wrong...Incidentally I got two extra pieces corduroy..."
 
And, if they could be possessed by evil spirits, could they also be sent to hell?

Imagine the devil at Processing & Sorting. 2000 pigs show up inside of six minutes.
Their sin: convenient proximity.

He's looking at them, and then his clipboard, then the pigs, then keys a mike, says, 'I need a supervisor down here.'
 
And, if they could be possessed by evil spirits, could they also be sent to hell?

Imagine the devil at Processing & Sorting. 2000 pigs show up inside of six minutes.
Their sin: convenient proximity.

He's looking at them, and then his clipboard, then the pigs, then keys a mike, says, 'I need a supervisor down here.'

Or, to the pigs: 'Please have a seat over there. We will be with you shortly.' And eons pass....because it's hell.
 
And, if they could be possessed by evil spirits, could they also be sent to hell?

Imagine the devil at Processing & Sorting. 2000 pigs show up inside of six minutes.
Their sin: convenient proximity.

He's looking at them, and then his clipboard, then the pigs, then keys a mike, says, 'I need a supervisor down here.'

Or, to the pigs: 'Please have a seat over there. We will be with you shortly.' And eons pass....because it's hell.

Hey, if the choice is Hell or Hell's waiting room....
 
If the purpose of Jesus was to die for the sins of the world, rather than a betrayal, the role of Judas was to help fulfill the mission, playing his role in the Divine Drama.

Exactly!

Which is why, if the gospel accounts are true, and if the trinity theory (which came later) is factual and true and REAL, then Judas could not be responsible for taking the 30 pieces of silver and betraying the Lord, which means quite a few things:

  • Judas, like virtually every other living, conscious entity, at least on Earth, if not in the whole dang universe, is fucked, no matter what.
  • God, if They are omnimax (all powerful, present everywhere, and all knowing: omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient [knowing whatever there is that can be known, meaning that Calvin's manifestly frightening conception of God was correct: preordination, predestination, all true]), and if They are the Creator and sustainer of everything that exists: uncreated, the Prime, Unmovable Mover, etc; and if They are actively involved with every facet of every single thing or event that happens in the universe - deep breath...is evil: a malignant, horribly sadistic being. Which means every living, conscious human is fucked. Assuming this version of god would not send any creature to hell if they could literally NOT accept Christ as their lord and savior. It seems silly to even bring it up, the idea being so monstrous, but I believe there are true believers who think that infants, or people with serious cognitive disablilities, even people who lived BEFORE Jesus was born, wind up in hell, because they were not baptized.
  • Determinism (God or no god), if true, meaning that there is literally no possibility of choosing to do otherwise in ANY instance, means that no animal, human or chipmunk or beetle, is responsible for what they do.

Sure. But there's no point worrying about it, because if strict determinism is correct, then people have no choice but to act as though they have free will, and no choice but to believe in freedom of will should they do so.

The consequences of strict determinism include the unavoidable fact that there can be no fairness, nor any consideration of the consequences of determinism by anyone who is not already destined to consider those consequences.

If a person doesn't believe in strict determinism, then either they are correct to do so, or are completely blameless for their error. Pascal's Wager, eat your heart out. I don't believe in strict determinism because that disbelief can only be either correct, or not in any way my fault. ;)
 
Learner seems to know the why f peole mentioned briefly in an old short text. How des one derive knowledge of exactly who those pole were and why they did what they did?

This line kicked off by Rea reinforces the idea of the gospels as intentional fiction. It reads like soap opera. W know where to cheer and where to cry.

I keep coming back to our modern docu-drama. Loosely based on some general facts and a lot of literary license. Fabricated composite characters to create a narrative. The movies Cleopatra and 10 Commandments.

Exactly. You can make things happen in a script that are impossible in reality. That's the power and the draw of fiction. We never outgrow our desire and need for fantasy.

That the story characters didn't recognize Jesus after he came back to life is a literary device meant to elicit awe and astonishment in the reader.

I've been to funerals where the deceased didn't look like the real deal. But the deceased was deceased. I didn't meet someone in the grocery store that after a few words I recognized as the person I buried three days ago.
 
A description of the gospels I heard is embellished promotional literature for new converts.

We only have to look at fake news today. Some years back my cable company got things switched wrong and I was getting Indian and Egyptian TV.

On what appeared to be an Indian breaking news segment someone appears to be feeding a holy statue and the food disappearing into the mouth. An Indian on the forum said that was common.

Imagine what it was like 2000 years ago. No science and all things were mysterious. Little written communications and news propagating by mouth.

The resurrection as a intentional religious hoax sounds plausible.

As a fable 'Doubting Thomas' would be a fictional character to make a point on faith.
 
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