This week in trans: extra prison time possible for misgendering

[Toni]

Deliberately misgendering people could be considered bullying or harassment. In a prison setting, it would be difficult to escape such harassment. I understand the reasoning behind such rules.

I wonder if there is an issue in male prisons with transgendered men being harassed, etc. and what the policies there are. Anybody know?

Exactly. Deliberate misgendering is a form of harassment. And in prison you can't just walk away from your harasser.

First, what is your evidence that they are misgendering anybody? They are saying that some people are not women. Would you like to debate whether they are women?

Second, even if the assessment were mistaken, what is your evidence that it is harassment?

They have met the state's requirements for being considered a woman. In prison, the state makes the rules.

 

[Toni]

Toni, you did not. I realise you have a high degree of confidence that you have, but you did not answer the question. As best as I can tell, you answered the question: "Should the State extend prison sentences for prisoners who misgender?", to which your answer appears to be "no".

But I did not ask that question. I asked "Should the State punish people who misgender?" You have not answered that question.

We all realize

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

Again, I can explain my answer but I cannot understand it for you.

Since you have no interest in understanding but merely in calling me wrong, then there is no value to me in attempting to explain what you have already decided you disagree with.

 

[none]

Toni, you did not. I realise you have a high degree of confidence that you have, but you did not answer the question. As best as I can tell, you answered the question: "Should the State extend prison sentences for prisoners who misgender?", to which your answer appears to be "no".

But I did not ask that question. I asked "Should the State punish people who misgender?" You have not answered that question.

We all realize

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

Again, I can explain my answer but I cannot understand it for you.

Since you have no interest in understanding but merely in calling me wrong, then there is no value to me in attempting to explain what you have already decided you disagree with.

Let's derail zipper on this thread about deficiencies. I jest.

 

[Metaphor]

The State has preferences of one set of feelings all the time.

Well, evidently. Hence the OP.

You live in Australia, not the UK.

And I've already told you, repeatedly, that this development in the UK is a reflection of the wider cultural purchase of trans ideology in culture and politics. And, in Australia, I can be punished by my own government for "misgendering".

And you have agreed that prison authorities can punish prisoners for harassing, abusive or insulting language.

No: I never said 'insulting', and I did not say 'language'.

When the behaviour in question is spoken or written words, there are almost no words that I want the State to punish because they are "abusive", no matter how "abusive" those words are. (Let alone the incredibly low bar of "insulting" words).

I can see an interest in the State proscribing credible threats of violence. Note that credible threats of violence are often, but not always, conveyed via words, and it's the nature of the threat that is the problem. If threats of violence were not credible, then they shouldn't be punished either. ("I am going to blast you to the moon with my laser-phaser-bobaser").

I can see an interest in the State proscribing harassing behaviour, but not based on the words used to harass (if it is words), but on the acts of harassment, regardless of whether the harassment is achieved through words or not.

Abusive, harassing, or threatening behaviour must have intent. And I sure as hell do not trust the judgment of people in a system that has put male prisoners on the female estate and then (pre-emptively) set up rules that will have the effect of punishing the women who point out that the female estate has, in fact, male prisoners.

 

[Metaphor]

First, what is your evidence that they are misgendering anybody? They are saying that some people are not women. Would you like to debate whether they are women?

Second, even if the assessment were mistaken, what is your evidence that it is harassment?

They have met the state's requirements for being considered a woman. In prison, the state makes the rules.

The State makes the rules outside of prison too. That the State made rules does not mean those rules are beyond criticism.

 

[Metaphor]

Toni, you did not. I realise you have a high degree of confidence that you have, but you did not answer the question. As best as I can tell, you answered the question: "Should the State extend prison sentences for prisoners who misgender?", to which your answer appears to be "no".

But I did not ask that question. I asked "Should the State punish people who misgender?" You have not answered that question.

We all realize

Who is 'we', got a mouse in your purse?

Again, I can explain my answer but I cannot understand it for you.

Since you have no interest in understanding but merely in calling me wrong, then there is no value to me in attempting to explain what you have already decided you disagree with.

Everybody can see for themselves whether you answered my question. My question was

"Should the State punish people who misgender?"

If you feel like answering the question, here's a hint: you can start your answer with the words 'yes', 'no', or 'it depends'.

 

[Metaphor]

You make assumptions based upon your perceptions, not even based on the biological characteristics.

The biological characteristics of people inform my perceptions.

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

 

[none]

You make assumptions based upon your perceptions, not even based on the biological characteristics.

The biological characteristics of people inform my perceptions.

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

Oh fuck now you are qualified.
Shit don't amount to shit.
I'll change your diapers and if you complain you get the finger.
So you gonna complain?

 

[repoman]

Can a rape victim misgender her rapist and be "corrected" by a judge?

 

[none]

Can a rape victim misgender her rapist and be "corrected" by a judge?

What if "her" is wrong?

 

[Toni]

You make assumptions based upon your perceptions, not even based on the biological characteristics.

The biological characteristics of people inform my perceptions.

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

That's obviously untrue. You obviously make assumptions based upon how I've presented myself on this board. As far as you actually know, I am male and for the purposes of writing here, I have adopted a female persona.

It's obviously untrue that you know always who is male and who is female in real life. You do not and cannot and are actually legally forbidden to take blood samples and perform the appropriate genetic tests to determine sex. Nor do you pants individuals on the street to inspect or even glance at their genitalia. You make assumptions, as do we all, based upon how someone dresses, walks, carries themselves, wears their hair, etc. We all tend to think we can tell who is biologically male and who is biologically female but I'm certain we've all been a bit uncertain about some individuals and I'm also certain that we've all been wrong occasionally.

Note: a couple of edits because of a typo and a wrong word choice. Only pointed out here because Jimmy quoted/replied to my post before I made the corrections. In case anyone gets confused.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You make assumptions based upon your perceptions, not even based on the biological characteristics.

The biological characteristics of people inform my perceptions.

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

That's obviously untrue. You obviously make assumptions based upon how I've presented myself on this board. As far as you actually know, I am male and for the purposes of writing here, I have adopted a male persona.

It's obviously untrue that you know always who is male and who is female in real life. You do not and cannot and are actually legally forbidden to take blood samples and perform the appropriate genetic tests to determine gender. Nor do you pants individuals on the street to inspect or even glance at their genitalia. You make assumptions, as do we all, based upon how someone dresses, walks, carries themselves, wears their hair, etc. We all tend to think we can tell who is biologically male and who is biologically female but I'm certain we've all been a bit uncertain about some individuals and I'm also certain that we've all been wrong occasionally.

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality. That is two with the same packaging wanting to boff each other. That isn't baseline, but it isn't particularly uncommon.

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open. If two people with the same packaging want to boff because that is the wiring, why is it so hard to accept that some people, as Eddie Izaard (Transvestite Executive) puts it, are like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, and beyond?

I personally don't understand how they feel, but I appreciate that they feel it, that the human psyche is massively complicated and reproduction leads to personalities like this, hetero, homo, bi, trans.

It is like we have to go through the same damn struggle every time.

Blacks suck!
Hey, I now know a black, and their friends and they are nice.. But homosexuals are deviant!
Hey, I now know a homosexual, and their friends and they are nice. But transgenders! They are crazy!
*give in ten years*

 

[Elixir]

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality.

The right wing preoccupation with what’s in other people’s pants supersedes all else. As we see here …

 

[Jarhyn]

That's obviously untrue. You obviously make assumptions based upon how I've presented myself on this board. As far as you actually know, I am male and for the purposes of writing here, I have adopted a male persona.

It's obviously untrue that you know always who is male and who is female in real life. You do not and cannot and are actually legally forbidden to take blood samples and perform the appropriate genetic tests to determine gender. Nor do you pants individuals on the street to inspect or even glance at their genitalia. You make assumptions, as do we all, based upon how someone dresses, walks, carries themselves, wears their hair, etc. We all tend to think we can tell who is biologically male and who is biologically female but I'm certain we've all been a bit uncertain about some individuals and I'm also certain that we've all been wrong occasionally.

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality. That is two with the same packaging wanting to boff each other. That isn't baseline, but it isn't particularly uncommon.

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open. If two people with the same packaging want to boff because that is the wiring, why is it so hard to accept that some people, as Eddie Izaard (Transvestite Executive) puts it, are like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, and beyond?

I personally don't understand how they feel, but I appreciate that they feel it, that the human psyche is massively complicated and reproduction leads to personalities like this, hetero, homo, bi, trans.

It is like we have to go through the same damn struggle every time.

Blacks suck!
Hey, I now know a black, and their friends and they are nice.. But homosexuals are deviant!
Hey, I now know a homosexual, and their friends and they are nice. But transgenders! They are crazy!
*give in ten years*

If you could add some element to yourself that would, for others, cast doubt on your genitals configuration, I think you MIGHT start to understand how they feel. Having others expect you to not be the person you are, having people deny you the right to be recognized by the things you choose to say through your wardrobe and bearing rather than by "that which you did not choose" (though even in a simulated capacity) That may do some good towards really getting it.

Not that you have to or even should, mind you.

If someone does all the social things that for "a lesbian" are attractive, and that "lesbian" finds themselves seeking a relationship, it doesn't mean they are any less a "lesbian" that the person they are attracted to has a penis. It just means that the penis is attached to something penises usually are not attached to: "that which attracts 'lesbians'"

 

[Keith&Co.]

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them?

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

 

[Playball40]

Why do you hate transgendered people so much? I really want to know/understand. What is it about their 'pronouns' that threaten your existence so much? As a rule, transgendered people are the most murdered, bullied, harassed and marginalized of all LGBTQ people (and probably of minority groups in general), so why the need to pile on?

 

[Playball40]

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

I cannot speak for Toni, but I have six children. Yes, my youngest twin was assigned female at birth and that was incorrect. I am working with him and his endocrinologist to have it corrected on his birth certificate now.

 

[laughing dog]

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them?

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

What is about "Boys have penises, Girls have vaginas" that you don't understand? It is the cornerstone of civilization. Without that recognition, we are no different than the eukaryots!!!!!

 

[Keith&Co.]

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

What is about "Boys have penises, Girls have vaginas" that you don't understand? It is the cornerstone of civilization. Without that recognition, we are no different than the eukaryots!!!!!

just about 30 years ago, my twins were born premature.
They went into two different bays at the NICU.
First time my wife and I visited, the two nurses saw us and were finally able to fill out their forms. The nurse that saw me filled out the block that my kid was 'White.'
The other nurse saw my wife, filled out the block saying my kid was 'Black.'

It was fixed before the actual Birth Certificates were printed, as established by the law of the state they were born in (Single Drop Rule). But it strikes me, that such documentation is kinda like theories in Physics. Our attempts to label and describe the universe are easily swayed in incomplete information and inaccurate estimations. Plus, we sometimes give WAY too much credence to inappropriate clues.

 

[Trausti]

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

What is about "Boys have penises, Girls have vaginas" that you don't understand? It is the cornerstone of civilization. Without that recognition, we are no different than the eukaryots!!!!!

just about 30 years ago, my twins were born premature.
They went into two different bays at the NICU.
First time my wife and I visited, the two nurses saw us and were finally able to fill out their forms. The nurse that saw me filled out the block that my kid was 'White.'
The other nurse saw my wife, filled out the block saying my kid was 'Black.'

It was fixed before the actual Birth Certificates were printed, as established by the law of the state they were born in (Single Drop Rule). But it strikes me, that such documentation is kinda like theories in Physics. Our attempts to label and describe the universe are easily swayed in incomplete information and inaccurate estimations. Plus, we sometimes give WAY too much credence to inappropriate clues.

And think of the Otherkin. A birth certificate denoting them as human is inaccurate and offensive. Why have birth certificates at all?