University of Otago student association gives "sportswoman of the year" award to a man.

[Elixir]

You have no information about whether they have had any HRT or surgery in order to transition... but you uncritically and without question accept them as a "woman"

I guess you need to produce a card with checkboxes.
Declared gender: M F
Attained via: Surgery, HRT, Congenital Intersex Chromosome Config, Congenital Chromosome Config Consistent - check at least one.
Is there a hierarchy here?

It really would be really funny were it not actual humans we're talking about.

 

[Ahab]

We don't know what physical characteristics Hubbard has. We don't know if Hubbard has an intersex chromosome configuration or if she's had body modifications, whether she's receiving hormone replacement therapy, or anything, really.

Walk me through this, if you please. Hubbard describes themself as a transwoman. Hubbard has shared with the whole world that they spent the first 30+ years of their life perceived as and treated as a man, and that the doctor that delivered them observed them to be male.

You have no information about whether they have had any HRT or surgery in order to transition... but you uncritically and without question accept them as a "woman" and challenge anyone who recognizes them as a "man"?

They lived as a man for the vast majority of their life, they competed as a man, they went through puberty as a man, and frankly, they look like a man. But you accept complete and without reservation that they are a woman.

What information do you have that leads you to conclude that they are a woman?

I was born a virgin. I lived 22 years of my life as a virgin. My Church accepted me as a virgin. My parents. Most of the small town i grew up in.

At some point, though, i realized i was not comfortable as a virgin. Probably 9th grade.
But society, my church, and my parents were not really open to my desire to change, not then. I was judged harshly for expressing my true feelings.

Anyway, i have the wife and three kids. No one calls or treats me as a virgin, not any more. But if it's important to you that 'most of their life' as something is important, when do you think i stopped being a virgin?
Would i have to wait 23 years, until i could say i had spent most of my life non-virginal? Or just when i took steps to change my status?
I just don't get that part of your objection, not at all.

It only takes a single act of sexual intercourse to lose one's virginity. Being a male or a female is for life. One can take on the gender roles of the opposite sex. One cannot change their sex.

 

[Metaphor]

We don't know what physical characteristics Hubbard has. We don't know if Hubbard has an intersex chromosome configuration or if she's had body modifications, whether she's receiving hormone replacement therapy, or anything, really.

Walk me through this, if you please. Hubbard describes themself as a transwoman. Hubbard has shared with the whole world that they spent the first 30+ years of their life perceived as and treated as a man, and that the doctor that delivered them observed them to be male.

You have no information about whether they have had any HRT or surgery in order to transition... but you uncritically and without question accept them as a "woman" and challenge anyone who recognizes them as a "man"?

They lived as a man for the vast majority of their life, they competed as a man, they went through puberty as a man, and frankly, they look like a man. But you accept complete and without reservation that they are a woman.

What information do you have that leads you to conclude that they are a woman?

I was born a virgin. I lived 22 years of my life as a virgin. My Church accepted me as a virgin. My parents. Most of the small town i grew up in.

At some point, though, i realized i was not comfortable as a virgin. Probably 9th grade.
But society, my church, and my parents were not really open to my desire to change, not then. I was judged harshly for expressing my true feelings.

Anyway, i have the wife and three kids. No one calls or treats me as a virgin, not any more. But if it's important to you that 'most of their life' as something is important, when do you think i stopped being a virgin?
Would i have to wait 23 years, until i could say i had spent most of my life non-virginal? Or just when i took steps to change my status?
I just don't get that part of your objection, not at all.

Did you workshop this with friends to see how achingly stupid a response you could write?

That Laurel Hubbard was born male, went through a male puberty, and had male levels of circulating testosterone until his mid thirties is relevant to the case against him being allowed to compete with women.

Laurel Hubbard has not become female, because humans cannot change sex. Humans can, and often do, go from 'virgin' to 'not a virgin'.

 

[Metaphor]

Wow, not going to read the path this thread took to get here but it is DEEP in "stupid".

It should be pointed out here that the thread is being rated "stupid" by a man who says he is "wizard gender".

IFF this person is playing sports in a sporting way, AND they are participating in such a capacity as they are not under the influence of testosterone

Even women have circulating testosterone in their systems. Everyone is under its 'influence'.

and it's performance enhancing effects AND have been abstaining, as such, for a period as acceptable for any athlete in the league who has in their past used steroids, then they deserve an award for sporting conduct befitting the league and identity.

I don't know that this athlete has satisfied my expectations for period of abstinence, which would probably sit at around 7 years. I suspect they have not.

This athlete can be 'abstinent' for testosterone for the rest of time, but he will still be male and have gone through a male puberty.

See, it's fairly well possible to cast a die and make a judgement without being TERF or TECA (trans-exclusionist conservative asshole).

Now let's see who proudly stands to be a TERF or TECA as the case may be, of their own volition, knowing they don't have to be...

I'm Wizardgender Exclusionary.

 

[Metaphor]

You have no information about whether they have had any HRT or surgery in order to transition... but you uncritically and without question accept them as a "woman"

I guess you need to produce a card with checkboxes.
Declared gender: M F
Attained via: Surgery, HRT, Congenital Intersex Chromosome Config, Congenital Chromosome Config Consistent - check at least one.
Is there a hierarchy here?

It really would be really funny were it not actual humans we're talking about.

There doesn't need to be cards of any kind. Laurel Hubbard is male.

EDIT: Since you've used the word, can you define 'gender' for me, please?

 

[Emily Lake]

Honestly, I don't care how Hubbard identifies. I've got some frustration for them being allowed to compete against women in a sport where a male physique unquestionably lends an advantage over females. But whatever, they abided by the rules.

But I find it horribly insulting to women in sports that they awarded "sportswoman" of the year to a male-bodied person who didn't even manage to finish in their competition and was effectively disqualified, over and above the several gold medalist women in rowing and rugby. It's offensive that they value the DNF of an out-of-shape middle-aged male so much more than the many women who actually excelled in their sports.

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I don't care how Hubbard identifies. I've got some frustration for them being allowed to compete against women in a sport where a male physique unquestionably lends an advantage over females. But whatever, they abided by the rules.

But I find it horribly insulting to women in sports that they awarded "sportswoman" of the year to a male-bodied person who didn't even manage to finish in their competition and was effectively disqualified, over and above the several gold medalist women in rowing and rugby. It's offensive that they value the DNF of an out-of-shape middle-aged male so much more than the many women who actually excelled in their sports.

I should note that although NZ had a number of female medallists (including Gold medallists) at the Summer Olympics, the candidate pool for this particular award was restricted to students of this particular university, though evidently it was not restricted to only female students.

 

[Rhea]

Seems like this thread is mis-titled.
Should be: Metaphor disagrees with University of Otago student association’s definition of a woman. Thinks they should listen to him.

Do you feel this is an appropriate post for a mod to make?

When I speak as a mod, it will say, “STAFF NOTICE”
When I speak as a member of the forum, I follow the rules.
(Or I try to, and take my warnings if they ahppen)

Yes, I think it is appropriate for a member to notice that someone’s thread title is at odds with their post, and post something mentioning it.

I agree with the first sentence you wrote. The second sentence is false. When I went to university back in the stone age, I was already aware of the intractable, hard left cloud cuckoo land nature of "student unions" -- elected by less than 7 per cent of the student population that took part in elections, but nevertheless supported by compulsory student unionism and fees extracted from students.

What a student union thinks a woman is does not concern me.

Well apparently it concerns you enough to complain about it.

That strange ideas (like that some men can be women) that began in academia now have increasing public purchase does.

Because you have lost out on fabulous opportunities to trans women-whom-you-do-npt-recognize-as-women?


What is this tremendous loss you have suffered?

 

[Elixir]

[TWEET][/TWEET]

You have no information about whether they have had any HRT or surgery in order to transition... but you uncritically and without question accept them as a "woman"

I guess you need to produce a card with checkboxes.
Declared gender: M F
Attained via: Surgery, HRT, Congenital Intersex Chromosome Config, Congenital Chromosome Config Consistent - check at least one.
Is there a hierarchy here?

It really would be really funny were it not actual humans we're talking about.

There doesn't need to be cards of any kind. Laurel Hubbard is male.

How do you know?

EDIT: Since you've used the word, can you define 'gender' for me, please?

How many definitions do you need? I can think of several right off.
Maybe you should consult the Oracle of Thesaurus, and ask for the elimination of your definitional dysphoria. That might help you choose the “right” one.

(Hint: in the example Card it’s a binary choice, and doesn’t reflect the spectrum of human anatomy, psyche or experience - it just makes some people more comfortable. That’s the purpose of the card.)

 

[Metaphor]

Yes, I think it is appropriate for a member to notice that someone’s thread title is at odds with their post, and post something mentioning it.

You did not 'notice' any such thing. To notice means there was some 'there', there, to notice. You made a false conclusion. There is no conflict between my thread title and the contents of my post (edited).

Well apparently it concerns you enough to complain about it.

As you cut off my response here but respond later I almost want to say this your edit was dishonest. As I explain immediately after this sentence:

That strange ideas (like that some men can be women) that began in academia now have increasing public purchase does.

Because you have lost out on fabulous opportunities to trans women-whom-you-do-npt-recognize-as-women?

I struggle to think what 'opportunities' I would be missing out when a man decides to forego exclusive sex-segregated benefits that accrue to men and instead impose himself on sex-segregated benefits that accrue to women. If I were a sportsman (and let me assure you, I as a human being could not be further from any such designation), it seems to me I would only benefit if Hubbard were no longer in the candidate pool competing against me.

As for the opportunities and awards I have won, they've all been academic, and they were open to students regardless of sex.

What is this tremendous loss you have suffered?

Where have I stated that I have suffered a 'tremendous loss' because Laurel Hubbard decided he would compete against women? The primary loss was suffered by whatever female NZ weightlifter would have made the team, except for Hubbard's presence. And her performance could not have been worse than Hubbard's, since Hubbard's performance was as bad as it could possibly be.

 

[Metaphor]

How do you know?

I've explained more than once on this thread how I know.

How many definitions do you need?

Um, one definition will do. When you used the word 'gender' in the post, what did you mean by it?

I can think of several right off.
Maybe you should consult the Oracle of Thesaurus, and ask for the elimination of your definitional dysphoria. That might help you choose the “right” one.

I'm afraid no dictionary can tell me what you mean when you use the word 'gender'. So what do you mean when you use it?

(Hint: in the example Card it’s a binary choice, and doesn’t reflect the spectrum of human anatomy, psyche or experience - it just makes some people more comfortable. That’s the purpose of the card.)

I'm afraid we haven't gotten to first base. What do you mean by 'gender'?

 

[Keith&Co.]

I was born a virgin. I lived 22 years of my life as a virgin. My Church accepted me as a virgin. My parents. Most of the small town i grew up in.

At some point, though, i realized i was not comfortable as a virgin. Probably 9th grade.
But society, my church, and my parents were not really open to my desire to change, not then. I was judged harshly for expressing my true feelings.

Anyway, i have the wife and three kids. No one calls or treats me as a virgin, not any more. But if it's important to you that 'most of their life' as something is important, when do you think i stopped being a virgin?
Would i have to wait 23 years, until i could say i had spent most of my life non-virginal? Or just when i took steps to change my status?
I just don't get that part of your objection, not at all.

It only takes a single act of sexual intercourse to lose one's virginity.

Who says i had sex? I just said i stopped ifentifying as a virgin. There's nothing to stop me. My 1980 physical shows no difference from my 1987 physical, on eithrr side of when i stopped. But nonone questions my self-identification either way.
Some people look at the kids and assume at least one is adopted.
I also know a woman whose husband brought home so many STDs that after the surgeries, she cannot have sex.
But people make assumptions...
It's just how i identify.

Being a male or a female is for life.

Citation needed

One can take on the gender roles of the opposite sex.

Okay. She wants to live her life as a woman.

One cannot change their sex.

But she can live as the other gender, as you just said.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Honestly, I don't care how Hubbard identifies.

A quick word count seems to void this claim.

I've got some frustration for them being allowed to compete against women in a sport where a male physique unquestionably lends an advantage over females. But whatever, they abided by the rules.

uh huh...

But I find it horribly insulting to women in sports that they awarded "sportswoman" of the year to a male-bodied person who didn't even manage to finish in their competition and was effectively disqualified, over and above the several gold medalist women in rowing and rugby. It's offensive that they value the DNF of an out-of-shape middle-aged male so much more than the many women who actually excelled in their sports.

...so, did thry say WHY they made this choice? What they were trying to reward, or promote? Do you take an issue with their goals?
Or, did they identify the pearls they want to see clutched, maybe?

 

[laughing dog]

A quick word count seems to void this claim. uh huh...

But I find it horribly insulting to women in sports that they awarded "sportswoman" of the year to a male-bodied person who didn't even manage to finish in their competition and was effectively disqualified, over and above the several gold medalist women in rowing and rugby. It's offensive that they value the DNF of an out-of-shape middle-aged male so much more than the many women who actually excelled in their sports.

...so, did thry say WHY they made this choice? What they were trying to reward, or promote? Do you take an issue with their goals?
Or, did they identify the pearls they want to see clutched, maybe?

A student orgsnization gave an award to a student who identified as a woman who was allowed by their country’s Olympic committe to reprrsent their country snd who was alloeed by the IOC to compete. Making the Olympics is a big deal. Most athletes at the Olympics don’t win medals. Any “ rights” of the athletes in competition are determined by the competition authority.

All in all, the story is a nothing burger. The complaints are driven by either a lack of information or small-mindedness. People can change their gender but not their DNA. Using a narrow definition of sex avoids the real obvious issue that the narrow definition is not accepted for use by the IOC.

 

[Elixir]

I've explained more than once on this thread how I know.

Cool. Which of your explanations is your favorite?

So what do you mean when you use it?

“Already explained” (creo-copout#4)
I gave you a hint, labeled as such for easy comprehension.

(Hint: in the example…)

Take the hint.

 

[Metaphor]

Cool. Which of your explanations is your favorite?

Any of them. They're identical to each other. But I will link here explaining how I know Hubbard is a man:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...award-to-a-man&p=942355&viewfull=1#post942355

“Already explained” (creo-copout#4)
I gave you a hint, labeled as such for easy comprehension.

No, you didn't. You did not explain what you meant by 'gender'.

Take the hint.

What hint? You have not explained in this post, or any post, what you mean by 'gender'.

 

[Keith&Co.]

All in all, the story is a nothing burger. The complaints are driven by either a lack of information or small-mindedness. People can change their gender but not their DNA. Using a narrow definition of sex avoids the real obvious issue that the narrow definition is not accepted for use by the IOC.

So, same shit, different decade.
When i was little, boys had too much penis to be stewardesses, girls too little penis to be pilots. Never mind talent, ability, desire.
Never mind that professionals don't touch the joystick with their penis..
Now, the line is moved. Nurse, pilot, doctor, flight attendant, open despite your dick inventory.
But there's still a line treated like holy writ, dividing the penis haves from the lacks, even if it's become a historical have or lack.

 

[Metaphor]

I call on Elixir to explain what they mean when they use the term 'gender'.

The same request goes out to Toni.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

All in all, the story is a nothing burger. The complaints are driven by either a lack of information or small-mindedness. People can change their gender but not their DNA. Using a narrow definition of sex avoids the real obvious issue that the narrow definition is not accepted for use by the IOC.

So, same shit, different decade.
When i was little, boys had too much penis to be stewardesses, girls too little penis to be pilots. Never mind talent, ability, desire.
Never mind that professionals don't touch the joystick with their penis..
Now, the line is moved. Nurse, pilot, doctor, flight attendant, open despite your dick inventory.
But there's still a line treated like holy writ, dividing the penis haves from the lacks, even if it's become a historical have or lack.

I'm willing to say it isn't quite that simple. Physiologically, what benefits of puberty as a male could provide an advantage in athletics down the road that almost no y-less person will be able to benefit from. What benefits of having testosterone at certain levels could provide an advantage down the road or currently.

These are physiological questions that actually can be answered, and as long as we can provide a reasonable even playing field among genders, then that works. Of course, even is a bit hard to judge. Was it remotely fair that anyone had to race a giant with balance and an insane stride in the 100 and 200 meter sprints? Michael Phelps' body, seriously, have to race a defective thing like that, no really fair.

I would also note that being transgender isn't exactly as simple as:


The question is, what makes a person a male or a female. Is there a "women's perspective" that they are cheating on? Is this like a black person "not being black enough"? Admittedly, this can be a bit tricky as so much of it is mental and we can't experience what they've lived. But others seem to be running back from the top of the slope, for fear of the entire world falling down it. (Is it odd how some of these people aren't taking Covid-19 all too seriously, but scared over this?) But being transgender isn't particularly common, nor is it some easy way to make it big in sports. You aren't seeing guys just coming up short in the NBA donning makeup and a wig and going into the WNBA.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm willing to say it isn't quite that simple. The question is, what makes a person a male or a female.

but that's a complicated question internal to the individual.
Out here, it's simpler.
Someone wants to live as a woman, we either say, yeah, okay, or no, you have too much penis to be 'Loretta.'

The sports question seems artificial to me. Or vestigial.

Rather than penis-enhanced or penis-limited divisions, why not something more akin to boxing with its weight classes?
Establish levels of ability, like speed or distance or reach, height, reflex, breath-holding, beat-counting, whatever trait the sport hinges on, athletes meeting these levels compete against others in their weight- or whatever- class.
Then sports funding won't be as easily unbalanced to the 'men's' team, workout room, locker room, but levelized. More like varsity, junior varsity, divarsity...