University of Otago student association gives "sportswoman of the year" award to a man.

[Elixir]

I call on Elixir to explain what they mean when they use the term 'gender'.

The same request goes out to Toni.

Fer crissakes , Meta.
“Gender”as I referred to it, is the binary choice imposed upon individuals by other individuals or organizations (such as Olympic Committees) based on criteria they choose for their own purposes.
So yeah, you can “know” Hubbard is male, you can “know” Hubbard is female, but what you”know” is for your purposes and your purposes only (which in your case seems to be easing your own discomfort). Because, as has been roundly expressed in this very thread, nobody else cares.
You’re not an Olympic Committee.
You’re not a manager of or lawyer for a sports team whose actions based on a gender determination actually matter.
Your Proclamation And Final Determination is no more consequential than a ball of feathers. It’s just a comforting bag of fluff.
(Unless, of course, you can show me on this doll where Hubbard’s gender hurt you…)

 

[Metaphor]

Fer crissakes , Meta.
“Gender”as I referred to it, is the binary choice imposed upon individuals by other individuals or organizations (such as Olympic Committees) based on criteria they choose for their own purposes.

What?

So, when a binary choice is available to me (for example, when shopping for groceries online I can select 'click and collect' or 'delivery') -- that is what gender means? If you do not mean to include that, what do you mean by gender?

So yeah, you can “know” Hubbard is male, you can “know” Hubbard is female, but what you”know” is for your purposes and your purposes only (which in your case seems to be easing your own discomfort). Because, as has been roundly expressed in this very thread, nobody else cares.
You’re not an Olympic Committee.
You’re not a manager of or lawyer for a sports team whose actions based on a gender determination actually matter.
Your Proclamation And Final Determination is no more consequential than a ball of feathers. It’s just a comforting bag of fluff.
(Unless, of course, you can show me on this doll where Hubbard’s gender hurt you…)

What do you mean by gender?

 

[Arctish]

When I was young, 'gender' was the word used instead of 'sex'. No one wanted to talk about the sex of a baby because 'sex' had connotations of something 'dirty' or shameful.

Nowadays, gender is still used as a synonym for 'sex', but it also is used to indicate an identity that may or may not be the traditional one associated with a chromosome configuration or body type. There are also social norms and behaviors linked to 'gender'. That's what makes 'gender' difficult to define in just a few paragraphs in a discussion thread.

There is gender identity - the 'sex' a person feels is the one to which they belong, or, in certain cases, the rejection of a specific 'sex' designation in favor of a more encompassing identity such as non-binary, gender queer, etc. .

There is gender expression - the way a person relates to others and communicates their gender identity. This can vary quite a lot from culture to culture.

There are gender norms - the way society pressures people to conform to certain expectations. This can be as benign as an expectation that someone might like getting flowers and a box of chocolates as a present, to as vicious as people being beaten, tortured, and killed for wearing the 'wrong' clothes or cosmetics.

Western society has historically only accepted two gender identities inextricably linked to physical features, and has been pretty brutal towards those who did not meet the associated expectations. But Western societies are finally understanding that not everyone fits neatly into those two categories.

 

[Metaphor]

When I was young, 'gender' was the word used instead of 'sex'. No one wanted to talk about the sex of a baby because 'sex' had connotations of something 'dirty' or shameful.

Nowadays, gender is still used as a synonym for 'sex', but it also is used to indicate an identity that may or may not be the traditional one associated with a chromosome configuration or body type. There are also social norms and behaviors linked to 'gender'. That's what makes 'gender' difficult to define in just a few paragraphs in a discussion thread.

Perhaps it is difficult to define, which is why I asked people to define it. You are the first person in the thread to actually attempt to do so.

There is gender identity - the 'sex' a person feels is the one to which they belong, or, in certain cases, the rejection of a specific 'sex' designation in favor of a more encompassing identity such as non-binary, gender queer, etc. .

Do all people have a 'gender identity'? Sports are separated by sex. Do you think they should be separated by 'gender identity' instead?

There is gender expression - the way a person relates to others and communicates their gender identity. This can vary quite a lot from culture to culture.

There are gender norms - the way society pressures people to conform to certain expectations. This can be as benign as an expectation that someone might like getting flowers and a box of chocolates as a present, to as vicious as people being beaten, tortured, and killed for wearing the 'wrong' clothes or cosmetics.

Western society has historically only accepted two gender identities inextricably linked physical features, and has been pretty brutal towards those who did not meet the associated expectations. But Western societies are finally understanding that not everyone fits neatly into those two categories.

So, why should I care about somebody's gender, if they have one? In particular, why should sports be separated by gender? And, if gender is both not-binary and separate to somebody's sex, why should a sex-designator (like 'man' or 'woman') be used to describe somebody's 'gender'? And why should somebody's stated gender identity be treated as if it were their sex, in spaces and situations that are sex-segregated?

 

[Arctish]

Perhaps it is difficult to define, which is why I asked people to define it. You are the first person in the thread to actually attempt to do so.



Do all people have a 'gender identity'?

I don't know. Some people self-identify as gender non-conforming. Is that a gender or a denial that they have a gender?

Sports are separated by sex. Do you think they should be separated by 'gender identity' instead?

If it's beneficial to the athletes and promotes competitiveness, sure.

I think it would be easier to go with size and weight classes the way they do in boxing, though. There's no reason I can see why lightweight, welterweight, and heavyweight competitions can't happen across a wide range of sports. And some sports, like gymnastics, don't need weight classes or segregation by sex or gender at all.

There is gender expression - the way a person relates to others and communicates their gender identity. This can vary quite a lot from culture to culture.

There are gender norms - the way society pressures people to conform to certain expectations. This can be as benign as an expectation that someone might like getting flowers and a box of chocolates as a present, to as vicious as people being beaten, tortured, and killed for wearing the 'wrong' clothes or cosmetics.

Western society has historically only accepted two gender identities inextricably linked physical features, and has been pretty brutal towards those who did not meet the associated expectations. But Western societies are finally understanding that not everyone fits neatly into those two categories.

So, why should I care about somebody's gender, if they have one? In particular, why should sports be separated by gender? And, if gender is both not-binary and separate to somebody's sex, why should a sex-designator (like 'man' or 'woman') be used to describe somebody's 'gender'? And why should somebody's stated gender identity be treated as if it were their sex, in spaces and situations that are sex-segregated?

I don't think you should necessarily care about someone's gender. I think you should be polite and respectful towards others regardless of sex and/or gender but that's just my opinion.

I don't believe that sex specific rights should exist in our society. I'm against sexism.

I do think it's necessary to give consideration to others who have particular needs and conditions, like the elderly being given priority when it comes to seats on a bus, but I don't see those as rights. To me, that's just the kind of courtesy we should promote among citizens in a peaceful, civil society.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't know. Some people self-identify as gender non-conforming. Is that a gender or a denial that they have a gender?

Well, it could be either. I mean, they might mean "I am non-binary", which sounds like a gender claim, or they might mean "I do not behave in the ways expected of my sex", which is not a claim that they have a gender identity, merely a claim that there are sex-role expectations in their society and they recognise them.

If it's beneficial to the athletes and promotes competitiveness, sure.

I think it would be easier to go with size and weight classes the way they do in boxing, though. There's no reason I can see why lightweight, welterweight, and heavyweight competitions can't happen across a wide range of sports. And some sports, like gymnastics, don't need weight classes or segregation by sex or gender at all.

Do you believe that height and weight classes adjust for the physiological differences between sexes?

I don't believe that sex specific rights should exist in our society. I'm against sexism.

Separation and segregation by sex occurs in our society and in all societies that have ever existed. If you think sex segregation should not exist, that is one thing. But replacing sex-segregation with 'gender identity' separation and pretending they are the same thing does not seem a sound policy to me.

I do think it's necessary to give consideration to others who have particular needs and conditions, like the elderly being given priority when it comes to seats on a bus, but I don't see those as rights. To me, that's just the kind of courtesy we should promote among citizens in a peaceful, civil society.

So, do you think women and girls--female persons-- should be extended the courtesy of not being pitted against males in sports?

 

[Arctish]

Well, it could be either. I mean, they might mean "I am non-binary", which sounds like a gender claim, or they might mean "I do not behave in the ways expected of my sex", which is not a claim that they have a gender identity, merely a claim that there are sex-role expectations in their society and they recognise them.



Do you believe that height and weight classes adjust for the physiological differences between sexes?

I think they do well enough to give it a try.

I remember when a female runner named Florence Joyner qualified for the Olympic Women’s finals with times that qualified her for the Men’s finals as well. Who knows how well she would done if she’d gone up against mixed sex/gender athletes in her size and weight range? All we know for sure is that if she’d run in the Men’s final with the time she posted in the Women’s she would have beaten a couple of the guys.

I don't believe that sex specific rights should exist in our society. I'm against sexism.

Separation and segregation by sex occurs in our society and in all societies that have ever existed. If you think sex segregation should not exist, that is one thing. But replacing sex-segregation with 'gender identity' separation and pretending they are the same thing does not seem a sound policy to me.

I do think it's necessary to give consideration to others who have particular needs and conditions, like the elderly being given priority when it comes to seats on a bus, but I don't see those as rights. To me, that's just the kind of courtesy we should promote among citizens in a peaceful, civil society.

So, do you think women and girls--female persons-- should be extended the courtesy of not being pitted against males in sports?

I doubt many of them would see sex segregation as a courtesy. I doubt they would appreciate being treated as though they can’t be expected to compete with men their own size.

 

[Metaphor]

I think they do well enough to give it a try.

I remember when a female runner named Florence Joyner qualified for the Olympic Women’s finals with times that qualified her for the Men’s finals as well. Who knows how well she would done if she’d gone up against mixed sex/gender athletes in her size and weight range? All we know for sure is that if she’d run in the Men’s final with the time she posted in the Women’s she would have beaten a couple of the guys.

It's not even close. High school boys outrun female Olympians for any race less than 5km.

https://boysvswomen.com

I doubt many of them would see sex segregation as a courtesy. I doubt they would appreciate being treated as though they can’t be expected to compete with men their own size.

The women in high school sport who have been displaced by males pretending to be women would welcome some of the courtesy back.

Women cannot be competitive with men in elite level sports. It isn't even a question.

 

[Elixir]

Fer crissakes , Meta.
“Gender”as I referred to it, is the binary choice imposed upon individuals by other individuals or organizations (such as Olympic Committees) based on criteria they choose for their own purposes.

What?

Get someone to read it to you.

So, when a binary choice is available to me (for example, when shopping for groceries online I can select 'click and collect' or 'delivery')

All binary choices are not "genders" by any common use, and all definitions of "gender" do not entail binary choices. And groceries are only "individuals" by extremely creative linguistic contortion.
Sometimes you (intentionally, it seems) come across as TSTP.
Inspect your groceries vewy vewy carefully, Metaphor... there might be some pretenders in there!

 

[Jarhyn]

The most ridiculous part of this as I have been reviewing the details and the arguments, someone got recognition for sportsperson-like conduct. That person was a woman. Now people want to revoke it because "she was disqualified and barely played and yada yada", her conduct pursuant to the disqualification is the reason she got the award!

Using the event as a reason not to give it to her seems hopelessly obtuse.

 

[Elixir]

So, why should I care about somebody's gender, if they have one?

You shouldn't. Get a hobby.

So, do you think women and girls--female persons-- should be extended the courtesy of not being pitted against males in sports?

Well, that definitely depends on several things. SHOULD you be protected from the terrible spectre of getting beaten in some sport by a "girl"? Maybe you shouldn't be playing.
Is it that your entertainment is threatened by men beating women in some sports league? You SHOULD appeal to the league, then. They are usually incredibly responsive to factors that effect their fanbase/viewership.
Questing about some backwater internet forum for definitions from which you can pick and choose, isn't going to help you with this nagging problem of yours.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, why should I care about somebody's gender, if they have one?

You shouldn't. Get a hobby.

So, do you think women and girls--female persons-- should be extended the courtesy of not being pitted against males in sports?

Well, that definitely depends on several things. SHOULD you be protected from the terrible spectre of getting beaten in some sport by a "girl"? Maybe you shouldn't be playing.
Is it that your entertainment is threatened by men beating women in some sports league? You SHOULD appeal to the league, then. They are usually incredibly responsive to factors that effect their fanbase/viewership.
Questing about some backwater internet forum for definitions from which you can pick and choose, isn't going to help you with this nagging problem of yours.

Moreover they shouldn't care about their sex either. They shouldn't pay it any which mind except insofar as it is the determinant of "what what of which I normally address other humans is most polite and congenial to the person I am interacting with?", Some of which we accept is reasonable to assume based on visually cued communication (how we dress, etc), and some is most polite to inquire about up front when able and to not assume when so unable.

That's it. In many ways it is no more than a socially codified structure wherein both parties explicitly acknowledge that they won't make assumptions about each other, to ask. It is like a handshake but with purely communicative protocol.

Rather than using a token exchange of vulnerability, it is a token exchange of acquiescence.

Not wanting to engage in exchanges of acquiescence, especially a token exchange, acts as a social filter for those who are recalcitrant to the social realities of others, and as a marker to give wide berth because of the toxicity that poses to good social function.

 

[Elixir]

Moreover they shouldn't care about their sex either.

Maybe ... but if someone wants to make sex or gender the sole focus of their "self", I'd think it would be socially or politically incorrect to try to stop them, beyond talking directly to them.
IMHO, theirs might be self destructive behavior from which I might try to dissuade them, but whether or not they are dissuaded by my preaching would not become a major issue for me.
In the immortal words of Popeye the Sailor Man:
"I ams what I ams and that's all that I ams".
In Meta's case, and that of many conservatives, this would seem not to be the case. They're not real sure what they are (the stridency with which they contend otherwise is proportional to the degree of truth of that assertion). They look to pigeonholing others as a means to get their bearings.

 

[Ahab]

Who says i had sex? I just said i stopped ifentifying as a virgin.

One is either a virgin or not. If you have had sexual intercourse with another person you are no longer a virgin. You can lie about it if you wish and claim you are still a virgin. So what? All that does is make you a liar.

Again, one is free to adopt any gender roles they want. I have no objection at all to that. But that doesn't change the fact that one cannot change one's sex. A trans woman is still a male and a trans man is still a female. Females should not be forced to compete against males in sports. And single sex spaces should still be protected for females.

 

[cycomiko]

not sure anyone brought it up yet but this was an award handed out by the STUDENT ASSOCIATION at a university. does such an award in NZ hold more distinction than it would here in the US? if i were an athlete in college and the university of texas student association awarded me any type of award nobody would give a shit because it doesn't actually matter.

 

[Keith&Co.]

if i were an athlete in college and the university of texas student association awarded me any type of award nobody would give a shit because it doesn't actually matter.

Well, not what THAT attitude, they won't!
Ungrateful wretch....

 

[cycomiko]

if i were an athlete in college and the university of texas student association awarded me any type of award nobody would give a shit because it doesn't actually matter.

Well, not what THAT attitude, they won't!
Ungrateful wretch....

now if they were handing out an award for most weed smoked while still getting an engineering degree......

 

[Jarhyn]

if i were an athlete in college and the university of texas student association awarded me any type of award nobody would give a shit because it doesn't actually matter.

Well, not what THAT attitude, they won't!
Ungrateful wretch....

now if they were handing out an award for most weed smoked while still getting an engineering degree......

Oh, finally an award for ME!

 

[Metaphor]

Get someone to read it to you.

I am literate.

All binary choices are not "genders" by any common use,

So why did you define 'gender' that way?

and all definitions of "gender" do not entail binary choices. And groceries are only "individuals" by extremely creative linguistic contortion.

Sometimes you (intentionally, it seems) come across as TSTP.
Inspect your groceries vewy vewy carefully, Metaphor... there might be some pretenders in there!

What's TSTP?

Why can't you define gender for me?

 

[Metaphor]

not sure anyone brought it up yet but this was an award handed out by the STUDENT ASSOCIATION at a university. does such an award in NZ hold more distinction than it would here in the US? if i were an athlete in college and the university of texas student association awarded me any type of award nobody would give a shit because it doesn't actually matter.

I put in in the title and the first post and mentioned it again later.