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US President 2016 - the Great Horse Race

lpetrich

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In recent decades, politicians have started running for US President earlier and earlier. Here's how far it's gone: two days after 2012 Election Day, Marco Rubio headed to Iowa: Has 2016 already started? - CSMonitor.com

Republicans who seem like they may run:
  • Marco Rubio
  • Rick Santorum
  • Ben Carson
  • Rand Paul
  • Ted Cruz
  • Scott Walker
  • Peter King
  • Donald Trump
  • Mike Huckabee
  • Chris Christie
  • Jeb Bush
  • Paul Ryan
  • Sarah Palin
Seems like a forest of John Birch trees.

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton is the big favorite, though I've seen mention of candidates like former Montana gov Brian Schweitzer. Some people want Elizabeth Warren to run, though she seems content with being Teddy Kennedy II in the Senate.
 
In recent decades, politicians have started running for US President earlier and earlier. Here's how far it's gone: two days after 2012 Election Day, Marco Rubio headed to Iowa: Has 2016 already started? - CSMonitor.com

Republicans who seem like they may run:
  • Marco Rubio
  • Rick Santorum
  • Ben Carson
  • Rand Paul
  • Ted Cruz
  • Scott Walker
  • Peter King
  • Donald Trump
  • Mike Huckabee
  • Chris Christie
  • Jeb Bush
  • Paul Ryan
  • Sarah Palin
Seems like a forest of John Birch trees.

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton is the big favorite, though I've seen mention of candidates like former Montana gov Brian Schweitzer. Some people want Elizabeth Warren to run, though she seems content with being Teddy Kennedy II in the Senate.

I'll give you credit for the fact that "forest of John Birch trees" is a funny phrase, but given that it is a phrase that applies to the overwhelming majority of Republican politicians and Republican voters, it is not particularly illuminating. ;)
 
I'll give you credit for the fact that "forest of John Birch trees" is a funny phrase, but given that it is a phrase that applies to the overwhelming majority of Republican politicians and Republican voters, it is not particularly illuminating. ;)

Have any of you actually paid attention to what the John Birch Society actually proposes? They're way more dovish than most Republicans on foreign policy. Most Republicans would label them "isolationists." They don't want ANY foreign entanglements which includes things like NAFTA and the WTO. I haven't actually seen their position on NATO, but I suspect that they would favor withdrawal. The Cold War is over so they want us to come home and stay home. Hardly your typical Republican view.
 
In recent decades, politicians have started running for US President earlier and earlier. Here's how far it's gone: two days after 2012 Election Day, Marco Rubio headed to Iowa: Has 2016 already started? - CSMonitor.com

Republicans who seem like they may run:
  • Marco Rubio
  • Rick Santorum
  • Ben Carson
  • Rand Paul
  • Ted Cruz
  • Scott Walker
  • Peter King
  • Donald Trump
  • Mike Huckabee
  • Chris Christie
  • Jeb Bush
  • Paul Ryan
  • Sarah Palin
Seems like a forest of John Birch trees.

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton is the big favorite, though I've seen mention of candidates like former Montana gov Brian Schweitzer. Some people want Elizabeth Warren to run, though she seems content with being Teddy Kennedy II in the Senate.

I'd say that Carson, Huckabee, Bush, Walker, Trump, and Palin are possible candidates. The others are probable candidates. I'd also add Bobby Jindal to the list of possibles.

Of the probables, I have to rate Rubio, Santorum, and Cruz as long-shots. So it looks like Ryan, Paul, and Christie are most likely at the moment. But if Huckabee or Bush gets in, all bets are off.
 
When do you guys vote in 2016? I mean, isn't two years of campaigning a bit, sorry, A LOT, ridiculously early?

The US has fixed federal election dates; the Presidential Election is every four years, on the Tuesday after the first Monday in November. (Usually it falls on Melbourne Cup day, so it is easy for Australians to remember). Their Reps and one-third of their Senators are up for election every even numbered year, with the elections that don't fall in a Presidential election year known as 'mid-term elections' or simply 'mid-terms'. Many states also have their various state elections fall on federal election day, so voters only have to go to the polls once.

So yes, two years would be ridiculously long, but the reality is even worse than that - there are two years and nearly eight months before the 2016 election.
 
I alluded to the John Birch Society because it is a far-right organization, and because birch trees are what its name makes me think of. The JBS's founder, Robert Welch, was known for believing that Dwight Eisenhower had been a part of the International Communist Conspiracy. Many of his fellow right-wingers couldn't stomach that one, however.
 
Republicans who seem like they may run:
  • Marco Rubio
  • Rick Santorum
  • Ben Carson
  • Rand Paul
  • Ted Cruz
  • Scott Walker
  • Peter King
  • Donald Trump
  • Mike Huckabee
  • Chris Christie
  • Jeb Bush
  • Paul Ryan
  • Sarah Palin
Seems like a forest of John Birch trees.

Should I puke now or wait?
 
Republicans who seem like they may run:
  • Marco Rubio
  • Rick Santorum
  • Ben Carson
  • Rand Paul
  • Ted Cruz
  • Scott Walker
  • Peter King
  • Donald Trump
  • Mike Huckabee
  • Chris Christie
  • Jeb Bush
  • Paul Ryan
  • Sarah Palin
Seems like a forest of John Birch trees.

Should I puke now or wait?

Why not do both?
 
Have any of you actually paid attention to what the John Birch Society actually proposes? They're way more dovish than most Republicans on foreign policy. Most Republicans would label them "isolationists." They don't want ANY foreign entanglements which includes things like NAFTA and the WTO. I haven't actually seen their position on NATO, but I suspect that they would favor withdrawal. The Cold War is over so they want us to come home and stay home. Hardly your typical Republican view.

John Birch Society website

http://www.jbs.org/
 
When do you guys vote in 2016? I mean, isn't two years of campaigning a bit, sorry, A LOT, ridiculously early?

My explanation is that it's a product of the presidential system. Parliaments don't have the cult of personality that presidential systems do. Here, presidential candidates basically have to become celebrities. In parliaments, AFAIK, the party chooses the head more or less internally
 
I just can't help but shake the thought that Schweitzer will crush Hillary. Her popularity is misleading since she's at a significant disadvantage in the primary process. I'm not sure how much, though, but she did get slightly more votes than Obama but was way behind in delegates. In addition, her appeal looks like it can't grow much further than it did. She has the major states with huge cities, Clinton-coal friendly Appalachia, and the SW Hispanics. But that's it. Schweitzer can feasibly cut into that big time without losing anything extra west of Illinois. Hillary's path to victory looks like it may depend heavily on if Obama's favor is strong enough to turn the South into her camp. I honestly just don't know how strong a pull he could have there. It has been said that Schweitzer does himself a disservice by talking bad about Obama since this could mean the South moves against him

Anyways, I think if people are expecting an easy Hillary victory, they're in for a fright. She should be extremely strong in the general election though because her ability to win CO/IA/NH, FL, OH, or VA is very high
 
In recent decades, politicians have started running for US President earlier and earlier. Here's how far it's gone: two days after 2012 Election Day, Marco Rubio headed to Iowa: Has 2016 already started? - CSMonitor.com
Well there is also the concept of "peaking too early" but overall the unofficial campaign season is ridiculously long in the US.

[*]Marco Rubio
He seems to have fizzled, especially since his immigration push wasn't received well by the base, and unless he reinvents himself I doubt he will mount a serious campaign.

[*]Rick Santorum
Technically runner-up from last time, something Republicans love (Romney, McCain, Bush Sr., Reagan). However he hasn't done much since his Senate loss in 2006 and political memories are short.

[*]Ben Carson
Herman Cain for 2016?

[*]Rand Paul
He is more mainstream than his pro-Putin dad and will be a formidable force in the primaries I think. But what's with the curls?

[*]Ted Cruz
Placed 2nd in the CPAC straw poll but very abrasive. Identity politics hispanic bonus but born in Canada so birthers should have much indigestion trying to square that circle.

[*]Scott Walker
First governor pick here. In recent history governors have been preferred (Bush Jr., Clinton, Reagan, Carter) because they both have governing experience and are Washington outsiders. Walker is a tea party governor from a pink state which should help him.

[*]Peter King
No. He really thinks about running?

[*]Donald Trump
He'll make a lot of noise but in the end will do nothing.

[*]Mike Huckabee
Co-runner up in 2008 (he got a few more delegates than Romney but Romney, who quit before Huckabee, got more votes and states) can perhaps claim the next-in-line mantle since Romney is spent and Santorum is well, himself. Also, if not for Thompson he'd have won SC (Thompson split the evangelical vote) and the whole race would have looked very different. Also he was a two term governor and has a sort of folksy charm many people like. Questionables are his fitness level (he seems to have gained weight again) and willingness to leave the Fox News gig.

[*]Chris Christie
One of the few Republican governors in a blue state (however, Romney was one too and that didn't help). Lately mired in scandal. Also NJ is kicking Tesla out under his watch which is could be fodder for campaign ads.

[*]Jeb Bush
Just what we need, another Bush-Clinton race! Also Barbara doesn't want him to run. On the plus side, FL is an important swing state, he is married to a hispanic woman (for those that vote based on identity politics) and he is considered "the smart Bush brother".

[*]Paul Ryan
Losing VP candidates don't make good candidates in their own right. Last losing running mate to win their party's nomination was Bob Dole and he had to wait 20 years and become Senate Majority Leader in the interim. He still lost in the general.

[*]Sarah Palin
Still has a considerable fan base in the GOP but I do not think she is really serious about running. If she was she'd work to establish a thicker and more recent resume.
Picture_8__07756.1349065284.1280.1280.png


What about Susanna Martinez of New Mexico?

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton is the big favorite, though I've seen mention of candidates like former Montana gov Brian Schweitzer. Some people want Elizabeth Warren to run, though she seems content with being Teddy Kennedy II in the Senate.
Conventional wisdom is on Hillary, but I am not so sure. In the whole history of USA there have been only three presidents that were "senior citizens" (>=65) at inauguration - Harrison, Buchanan (both mid-19th century) and Reagan. Hillary would be just a little younger than Reagan. However, Reagan had certain qualities that offset the handicap of his age - he was known from before politics, he had political experience (2 term CA governor) but was Washington outsider and he had a likeable manner. Hillary has been a fixture in Washington DC since 1992 (there are people eligible to vote that weren't even born yet!) and much of it not in her own right but as presidential spouse. Also, not even her fans think of her as particularly likable.
Some people want Elizabeth Warren to run, though she seems content with being Teddy Kennedy II in the Senate.
Yes, some parts of the base just love themselves some Warren. Others want Bernie Sanders (who has announced he may run). I do not think either has legs. Same goes for Joe Biden who I think is only being talked about to make Hillary appear youthful by comparison anyway.

On the other hand people like Brian Schweitzer, Andrew Cuomo or Mike O'Malley will have legs if they run.
 
I alluded to the John Birch Society because it is a far-right organization, and because birch trees are what its name makes me think of. The JBS's founder, Robert Welch, was known for believing that Dwight Eisenhower had been a part of the International Communist Conspiracy. Many of his fellow right-wingers couldn't stomach that one, however.

Actually, if I remember correctly, what Welch said was that Ike had, "knowingly aided the Communist conspiracy." This is actually true if you consider that Ike worked hand in hand the Stalin to defeat Hitler, and I think the context of Welch's remarks indicate that that is what he was referring to. So many people quoted him out of context, but I wouldn't be too sure that Welch didn't put in there knowing that that would happen. He wasn't a guy to avoid controversy.

But even back then, the Birch Society opposed the war in Vietnam. So they were almost a throwback to Robert Taft or even further to the America First Committee, but really, because of Welch, they were almost a parody of them. They have better PR now, and their policies aren't a whole lot different from the libertarians but their big bugaboo now is the New World Order.
 
wufwugy writes:

She has the major states with huge cities, Clinton-coal friendly Appalachia, and the SW Hispanics. But that's it.

That's it? That IS the Democratic Party. You think Sweitzer could beat her in the South? With what? In most Southern states the Democratic party is the black vote. Bill Clinton is hailed as, "the first black president." I don't quite understand why but that's the propaganda that Sweitzer would have to overcome.

I agree that Hillary is popular mostly because her opposition is even more unpopular (Joe Biden) or virtually unknown (Sweitzer and Mark O'Malley).

She tops the Republican field for much the same reason. No one comes close to her in national name-recognition except, maybe, Jeb Bush. But still, voters don't really know Jeb Bush. They just know that he's George's brother. I'd bet that a majority couldn't even tell you that he was once the Governor of Florida. But Republicans are close enough to her in national polling that I think it would be a very close race. She certainly doesn't have it in the bag. But I don't see anyone who can really mount much of a challenge to her in the Democratic primaries. Maybe a Ross Perot type who had enough celebrity and enough money to finance his own campaign. Somebody like Zuckerman, but I don't think he's even old enough to run.
 
That's it? That IS the Democratic Party. You think Sweitzer could beat her in the South? With what? In most Southern states the Democratic party is the black vote. Bill Clinton is hailed as, "the first black president." I don't quite understand why but that's the propaganda that Sweitzer would have to overcome.

That's what she took in 08 and Obama still beat her.

2008_Democratic_Primaries_Popular_Vote.svg


Schweitzer could easily take all the purple states west of Illinois (Clinton would take Illinois) as well as steal Texas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Arizona from Hillary. Hillary's popularity in Appalachia is largely due to the old-timey Democratic love for fossil fuel, but the region has been swiftly leaving Democrats nationally because of the party's move away from traditional energy. The Clintons are among the last breed of Democrats that still play well in the region, but if Schweitzer comes and Hillary keeps up with the climate change rhetoric, he will be able to take a huge chunk out of her support. On energy, guns, and persona, he could absolutely crush all the green states from West Virginia down to Texas

But this still wouldn't win it for Schweitzer since if Obama backs Hillary, the South may move to her instead. If that happened, Hillary would win. I guess what I don't know is how much all the black voters in the South would move towards Clinton instead of Schweitzer. With Obama's backing, Hillary might actually be unbeatable in the Dem primaries, except by another black guy.
 
Derec writes:


Marco Rubio

He seems to have fizzled, especially since his immigration push wasn't received well by the base, and unless he reinvents himself I doubt he will mount a serious campaign.

He's already mounting a serious campaign. He isn't as publicly active as some, but behind the scenes he is raising money and building a campaign organization. I agree, however, that he needs to reinvent himself as a moderate Republican I don't think he can re-build his image as a conservative. The question also arises of what he will do if Jeb Bush runs. At this point, Jeb would be a heavy favorite, I think, in Florida.

Rick Santorum

Technically runner-up from last time, something Republicans love (Romney, McCain, Bush Sr., Reagan). However he hasn't done much since his Senate loss in 2006 and political memories are short.

He's also working hard behind the scenes but his poll numbers are awful. He usually gets only 2-3% in national polls. Some pollsters no longer even include him. I suspect that his personal appeal was not that great, and that he simply emerged as the "not Romney" candidate in 2012. I also suspect that lots of evangelicals voted for him because Romney was a Mormon, and Santorum will not be able to get that kind of vote against a Huckabee or a Ted Cruz.

Ben Carson

Herman Cain for 2016?

A little smarter, perhaps, but I agree. It's doubtful that he's ready for prime time.

Rand Paul

He is more mainstream than his pro-Putin dad and will be a formidable force in the primaries I think. But what's with the curls?

I agree. He's tried to take the rough edges off his father's ideology and meanwhile the public, including Republicans, have gotten pretty tired of war, so his dovish foreign policy won't hurt him much and may help him. Why does everyone make such a big deal about his hair? If he does make it, I suppose it will be like Jimmy Carter's teeth were in his presidency.

Ted Cruz

Placed 2nd in the CPAC straw poll but very abrasive. Identity politics hispanic bonus but born in Canada so birthers should have much indigestion trying to square that circle.

He place WAY behind in second place. He's a fringe candidate, and he will need to get out of that fringe if he wants to win. He's abrasive in the Senate, but he's a very good speaker on the campaign trail. But hey! He just entered the Senate a year ago, and he's never held elective office before yet now he's a national figure so his fingeness has paid off so far. Does he dare "moderate" his views? I doubt he can pull it off. If he's runs he'll be a spoiler, but who will he spoil it for?

Scott Walker

First governor pick here. In recent history governors have been preferred (Bush Jr., Clinton, Reagan, Carter) because they both have governing experience and are Washington outsiders. Walker is a tea party governor from a pink state which should help him.

I smell a Tim Pawlenty here, but first he's got to win re-election which is no foregone conclusion. I don't know what is so special about Walker. He won a battle with the unions, but that's one issue. Although he's billed as a staunch conservative, he's popular with the Washington establishment, and so he gets a lot of attention from the Washington media. Other than that, there's really not much to recommend him.

Peter King

No. He really thinks about running?

He not only thinks about it, he talks about it. He's a military industrial, intelligence industry hack. If he runs, it will probably be to keep up attacks on Rand Paul.

Donald Trump

He'll make a lot of noise but in the end will do nothing.

Agreed. He won't want to file all those income disclosure forms.

Mike Huckabee

Co-runner up in 2008 (he got a few more delegates than Romney but Romney, who quit before Huckabee, got more votes and states) can perhaps claim the next-in-line mantle since Romney is spent and Santorum is well, himself. Also, if not for Thompson he'd have won SC (Thompson split the evangelical vote) and the whole race would have looked very different. Also he was a two term governor and has a sort of folksy charm many people like. Questionables are his fitness level (he seems to have gained weight again) and willingness to leave the Fox News gig.

He's already announced that he's leaving the Fox News gig, but it's to start another news project that he will own. A Glenn Beck type of thing I assume. That's even less compatible with a presidential campaign than his Fox News gig. But encouraging speculation about a candidacy is quite compatible with a new news project, so I don't expect him to run. He's popular with evangelicals would certainly be a force to deal with, but fiscal conservatives don't like him. They feel he was big spender as governor of Arkansas.


Chris Christie

One of the few Republican governors in a blue state (however, Romney was one too and that didn't help). Lately mired in scandal. Also NJ is kicking Tesla out under his watch which is could be fodder for campaign ads.

He's already lost the front-runner spot due to scandal and investigations are still on-going and not just about "Bridgegate." If Christie is a typical New Jersey politician, and he seems to be, then there should be plenty out there to get on him. He's pro-gun control and pro-amnesty. That would doom him in quite a few contests including-Iowa and probably South Carolina and maybe even Florida. Momentum lost is hard to re-gain.

Jeb Bush

Just what we need, another Bush-Clinton race! Also Barbara doesn't want him to run. On the plus side, FL is an important swing state, he is married to a hispanic woman (for those that vote based on identity politics) and he is considered "the smart Bush brother".

He's a better campaigner than George and yes, he's the type who can tell what's on line 39 of the budget. Much better with facts and figures than his brother, but probably not as likable. He has all the connections. He's got grass-roots and he's got establishment connections as well. He should be able to raise a lot of money. But he's a Bush. The big advantage is the big defect. George Bush isn't too popular these days even, or perhaps especially, with Republicans. Jeb is usually in the top three in polling, but that's not particularly impressive when you consider his name-identification advantage.

Paul Ryan

Losing VP candidates don't make good candidates in their own right. Last losing running mate to win their party's nomination was Bob Dole and he had to wait 20 years and become Senate Majority Leader in the interim. He still lost in the general.

They usually poll well early on but collapse when they start counting the votes. You have to be able to build a solid organization and raise money and all that folderol and VP candidates don't usually have much experience at doing that.

Sarah Palin


Still has a considerable fan base in the GOP but I do not think she is really serious about running. If she was she'd work to establish a thicker and more recent resume.

I think she knows her limitations better than her fans do. She knows what she can do with her celebrity, and she taking advantage of it. Meanwhile, why risk anymore?

What about Susanna Martinez of New Mexico?

Tim Pawlenty in a dress.
 
My explanation is that it's a product of the presidential system. Parliaments don't have the cult of personality that presidential systems do. Here, presidential candidates basically have to become celebrities. In parliaments, AFAIK, the party chooses the head more or less internally
There are strong personalities in parliamentary systems as well. People like Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair or Helmut Kohl in Germany are good examples.

I think it has more to do with the primary system US has, especially since it is stretched out over several months with different states voting at different times. In most other countries the candidates are determined by the parties at their convention. So anybody who wants to run for the top spot campaigns internally and not in public before the nomination. And while France has a primary system it is a national vote and does not drag as long.
 
I think that pretty much every leader in every country starts running for the office a few years ahead of time at a minimum. It's just that the US has a more public process about it and the US news media covers every minute iota like it's a celebrity sex scandal and feels the need to stretch out five minutes worth of news into a week's worth of shows or else they'd be left with a lot of dead airspace which they'd then have to fill with some kind of fact-based and informative content and news programs tend to shy away from that sort of thing.
 
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