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Why YEC can seem plausible

I'm only offering a defense of what the bible actually says about Noah and The Flood. It's not necessary for me refute claims that are based on stuff the bible doesn't say - arguments from silence. (Eg. The bible doesn't assert that all mountain tops were all simultaneously completely covered with water. Neither does it assert that the height of Mt Everest and the depth of the Marianas Trench were the same back then as they are today.)
 
I'm only offering a defense of what the bible actually says about Noah and The Flood. It's not necessary for me refute claims that are based on stuff the bible doesn't say - arguments from silence. (Eg. The bible doesn't assert that all mountain tops were all simultaneously completely covered with water. Neither does it assert that the height of Mt Everest and the depth of the Marianas Trench were the same back then as they are today.)


Lion would have us believe tthat the events of changing the height of Everest from what it would take to get flooded - 400 feet? - up to 29,000ft (8800m) in only 6000 years…
~Left. No. Trace~
 
And how was that measured? Who was present to make the readings? Per the story, every human being was drowned or had more important things to do than race up to the top of Everest with a measuring tape. Noah and his family were buttoned up inside a hollow block of wood, which somehow survived these eight-kilometer-high waves.

You mean who told Moses what Noah saw when he opened the window he had made in the ark?

I'm trying to understand this. You're saying that Noah opened up his little window and saw this...




...and that he immediately knew that he was fifteen cubits higher than Mount Everest? And that he somehow transmitted this information down through the generations--hundreds of years--until the author of Genesis could write it down? Can you look at that picture and tell me how deep it is to the bottom?

I'm also not understanding how Mount Everest could be both covered by water long enough for Noah to be able to--what? take sounding measurements?--and to be temporarily swamped by a eight-kilometer-high tidal wave for just long enough to qualify as "under water." One or the other, but not both.

I'm afraid your evidence is not very compelling.
 
Average depth of ocean minus average elevation of land above sea level = more than enough water.

Total cubic volume of all oceans minus total cubic volume of dirt above sea level = even more than enough.

I'm not making this up pal. Do you struggle with spacial reasoning?

Not as much as you appear to.

In order to significantly raise sea level, you need to add more water to the existing oceans. Taking water out of the ocean isn't going to do it, because the water will just flow back into the ocean. You can't get rich by depositing a dollar into your bank account a million times, unless that dollar comes from somewhere other than your bank account. You can't flood the land by taking water from the ocean and adding it to the ocean.

Except insofar as anything is possible if you just make shit up.
 
...the water will just flow back into the ocean.

OH!
You mean like this...


Genesis 8:3 said:
The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,

YAY.
Something in the bible that bilby agrees with.
 
I'm trying to understand this. You're saying that Noah opened up his little window and saw this...

View attachment 34214

...and that he immediately knew that he was fifteen cubits higher than Mount Everest? And that he somehow transmitted this information down through the generations--hundreds of years--until the author of Genesis could write it down? Can you look at that picture and tell me how deep it is to the bottom?

I'm also not understanding how Mount Everest could be both covered by water long enough for Noah to be able to--what? take sounding measurements?--and to be temporarily swamped by a eight-kilometer-high tidal wave for just long enough to qualify as "under water." One or the other, but not both...

Well, I already conceded the mystery of revelation.

Clearly, Noachian Flood deniers are going to ask who told Moses what Noah saw and did during the Flood events. (Assuming Moses is the source of Genesis.)

Self-evidently, there are flood events described which Noah didn't see with his own eyes. But Noah could infer facts from what God told him and Moses could have likewise received knowledge of those events from God and/or oral history.

Also, I don't think it's right to presume what the height of Mt Everest was when the Flood happened. Neither is it sound logic to exclude divine/miraculous intervention from an event which is overwhelmingly understood to be an act of God.
 
I think that's a bit unfair. Fundamentalists have never been the majority of Christians. It's always been a loony fringe part of Christianity. Most Christians, especially the ancient, have always understood how religious myths work.

I've always disliked atheists attacking Christianity because of things it's dumbest members believe. YEC and fundamentalism is just this IMHO.

In the US, a majority of Christians believe that the bible is literally true. According to the below, 60% of Americans believe that the Noah story is actual events, jot for jot:

https://abcnews.go.com/images/pdf/947a1ViewsoftheBible.pdf

Most Christians do not live in USA. Americans are a self selected group. The early European settlers were Protestant fundamentalists so twisted and fanatical in their beliefs that they were considered a threat to the peace and stability of Europe. Of course that has shaped current religion in USA. Culture changes slowly. . Don't forget that USA's freedom of religion, as found in the Constitution is about mitigating the problems of Christian extremism.
 
...the water will just flow back into the ocean.

OH!
You mean like this...


Genesis 8:3 said:
The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,

YAY.
Something in the bible that bilby agrees with.

There's plenty in the bible that I agree with. It's a Forer Effect document - it says everything, which is why it can tell us nothing; It can be read to support whatever the reader wishes to support, and to oppose whatever he wishes to oppose. It has been held up as the inspiration of slavers and abolitionists, warmongers and pacifists, authoritarians and liberals, conservatives and progressives.

It is utterly useless except as a mirror for the fantasies and desires of its wielders.

If you need the fucking bible to tell you that water flows downhill, I feel deeply sorry for you. But of course, you don't. And nor do I.

All you need from the bible is support for the things you want to believe - and, like every Christian in history, you will find that support there, because you can find support in the bible for literally anything at all. Most 'holy books' work in this way. So do horoscopes. Confirmation bias is a very powerful force.

It can't make water flow uphill though. And while it can let you believe whatever you want to believe, it still can't make false claims true, or fiction into fact. And regardless of what you desperately want to believe, the Earth has never been covered by water, any more than it has ever been flat.
 
Well, I already conceded the mystery of revelation.

Clearly, Noachian Flood deniers are going to ask who told Moses what Noah saw and did during the Flood events. (Assuming Moses is the source of Genesis.)

Self-evidently, there are flood events described which Noah didn't see with his own eyes. But Noah could infer facts from what God told him and Moses could have likewise received knowledge of those events from God and/or oral history.


Revelation is a notoriously unreliable method for historical analysis and for scientific discovery. One man's revelation is another man's delusions. How is an unbiased third party supposed to tell the difference? And if Charles Darwin had said, "God told me that speciation occurs due to natural selection over millions of years," would that settle the matter in your mind?

Neither is it sound logic to exclude divine/miraculous intervention from an event which is overwhelmingly understood to be an act of God.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you there. It is always sound logic to exclude divine intervention. To allow such a thing would introduce chaos to an infinite degree. Every accused criminal would argue that it was God who committed the murder and planted the evidence pointing to the accused. Every scientific experiment would be cast in doubt as to be the result of God's thumb on the scale. Every act of kindness, every act of cruelty, every single event in the course of history would be unexplainable.

Imagine the following argument: "Let's say for the sake of argument that God can do anything. Did anything happen? Then God did it. Q.E.D." Would you accept that argument in other areas besides those intersecting your faith?

And if the Noachian Flood is understood to be an act of God, then it demonstrates the cruel and capricious nature of the God you worship. Per Genesis, God was heartbroken at the wickedness of Noah's generation. The solution--the only solution that the omniscient Jehovah could come up with--was to drown an entire world. What ever happened to the enticement of the Holy Spirit, drawing us to God? What happened to the notion of incarnating as a human and offering himself as a sacrifice to save the lost? What happened to God not being willing for "any little one to perish"?

After all, if God just wanted to eliminate wicked people, he could have simply used his miraculous power to give each one of them an aneurysm. No need to drown an entire world--plants, animals, infants, the mentally handicapped--just to get rid of a few bad apples. It would be like burning down a house to get rid of an infestation of ants--except there are people in the house too. You say that God was going to drown wicked people but he gave Noah advance notice along with instructions on building a boat. But that took time, didn't it? What about the people who were born between the time God warned Noah and the time the rains started to fall? How could God have known that people not even born yet were going to be depraved? Are you telling me that the babies that were born the day before Noah entered his ark--the one-day-old infants--were so filled with evil that the only recourse for them was to drown in their cribs?

Sorry, I don't believe it. If the flood is an act of God, then God is guilty of genocide of the highest order. That anyone would turn around and call such a good "righteous" is baffling to me.

Fortunately, the physical evidence against a world-wide deluge is so overwhelming that I don't need to entertain the notion of a genocidal God.
 
I think vast deposits of fossil fuels (coal/oil) lend weight to the plausibility of a sudden, catastrophic, simultaneous mass destruction of plants and animals - whose remains were buried under flood sediment.
 
I see what you mean 'settled', as the only other alternatives to consider is that aliens made it, or the oceans naturally shaped those rocks into block-shapes "imitating" human design :D



Funny enough,(just a mention without going off topic), speaking of aliens, there are more Ufo stories seeping into some of the regular daily news channels. Whats happening? :eek:
LOL...speaking of aliens, you might find reading 'The 12th Planet' by Zecharia Sitchin fun, when you aren't soo distracted... The dude really seemed to believe his alien-Sumerian tales. I picked up the book by accident, in a quick buy of a few SciFi books for work travel many years ago.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

I remember Sitchin, I think we discussed a little about him a while ago. You must remember a wave of Planet X / Nibiru watchers videos, watching out for signs of it's arrival or return of the annunaki. I was open to the idea of 'advanced beings' may have been here before us. The 'spanner in works' for Sitchen's annunaki... came in the form of Dr. Michael Heiser (ancient languages), https://www.sitchiniswrong.com/. I was a little bit gutted back then tbh, it spoilt the adventure lol.
 
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I think vast deposits of fossil fuels (coal/oil) lend weight to the plausibility of a sudden, catastrophic, simultaneous mass destruction of plants and animals - whose remains were buried under flood sediment.

You have demonstrated very ably that what you think is a poor guide to reality.

Geologists think that coal was mostly deposited over a period of sixty million years, between 360 and 300 million years ago; While oil and gas forming materials were deposited over a far longer range of time (spanning more than 435 million years) with the majority of oil and gas deposits laid down in the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods, some 130 million years after the Carboniferous period when coal deposits were formed.

Your notion doesn't carry quite sufficient weight to tip the scales against the geologists, particularly given that coal mining and oil and gas prospecting companies that employ geologists find what they are looking for FAR more often than those that used creationists. There was some competition between the two back in the late C19th and even into the early C20th; But the companies that used biblical, astrological, or dowsing based (rather than geological) exploration techniques tended to go broke very rapidly, while those who used a geological methodology were far more successful.

Science works. Ignorant speculation doesn't.
 
There's a scientific text anywhere that builds a case for oil deposits resulting from a sudden event?

Sudden events are natural and do happen. There is no reason imo, why past sudden events wouldn't be causes for some of the oil deposits.

Sure. But can you see how a series of locally sudden events over the course of more than four hundred million years isn't good evidence for a single global sudden event? Or how a process of oil formation that geologists agree requires a minimum of a few million years is good evidence that any oil deposits found today were laid down more than a few thousand years ago?

The problem with the scientific method is that if you accept that it works some of the time, you need to have a really compelling reason to claim that it doesn't work all of the time.

And "I don't like its conclusions" isn't a compelling reason. Nor is "someone once wrote down something different", unless that something different is a scientific paper - ie a paper that includes all of the methodology used to reach the conclusion, so it can be tested independently.
 
I think vast deposits of fossil fuels (coal/oil) lend weight to the plausibility of a sudden, catastrophic, simultaneous mass destruction of plants and animals - whose remains were buried under flood sediment.

And that it somehow all pooled to specific areas that are now a mile below the surface and the collected plants and animal carcasses are now embedded in rock? And that it took only 6000 years to turn into oil and coal?

Do you have a citation for how this works?
 
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