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Who is responsible for pregnancies? (Derail from: Policies that will reduce abortions)

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TSwizzle said:
Toni said:
TSwizzle said:
Emily Lake said:
TSwizzle said:
Edited*

Emily Lake said:
There are a whole lot of necessary elements for a pregnancy to occur. Just like with a car engine. Needs to have a central chamber, pistons, spark plugs, etc. Lots and lots of bits need to be there, all doing their part. That said... without gasoline, the engine cannot work. The gas is the catalyst injected into a system that makes it happen. If other parts of the system are lacking, sure, the engine won't work either. But the gas is still the catalyst.

And just like someone has to exert agency to put the gas in the tank to make the engine work... the sperm-injector is a voluntary actor that has complete control over whether the sperm gets inside or not.

A woman can say "No, I don't want to have sex.". She can say "No, I won't have sex without a condom" or "No, you cannot cum inside me". But at the end of the day, the woman cannot actually control whether or not the sperm gets there. No more so than the engine can reject the gasoline.
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You know that when women gas up their cars they put the nozzle in the gas tank themselves and pump the gas themselves, yeah?

Sometimes women are so horny they do the same with men’s cocks. Grab the cock, put it in the vagina and start pumping, consequences be damned.
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Sure. But unlike the gas nozzle, the man can say no and take his cock out! What an amazing concept! It's magic!
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Yeah, but the woman needn't have put the cock in and the woman is free to disengage from the cock at anytime. (this applies to consensual sex of course. I have no desire to get into some dumb comment about rape which is an entirely different scenario and conversation. )

Oh and I'm pretty sure that is an arrangement between couples where the man does take his cock out before ejaculation. Not the most reliable form of birth control but if that's what the two parties agree to then buyer beware.
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It’s not an entirely different scenario. Pregnancies happen regardless of consent because a man ( or boy) ejacukated. This fact doesn’t change because one of the parties did not consent.
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We are all familiar with the way the biology works. You have posted it many, many, many times *yawn*.
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And yet you keep posting stuff that implies that you don’t know.
 
Toni said:
TSwizzle said:
Toni said:
TSwizzle said:
We are all familiar with the way the biology works. You have posted it many, many, many times *yawn*.
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And yet you keep posting stuff that implies that you don’t know.
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Such as?

You are either not paying attention or it’s another false claim.
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You're accusations are even more boring than your insults.
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I’ll take that as you have hee-haw to back up your false claims.
 
You know what? I'm tired of this argument. It's frankly dumb.

Here is my position: In the current world, the social view of responsibility when it comes to pregnancy is almost entirely on the shoulders of women. Biologically, there's no escaping that women have the burden of gestation and delivery, that's how it works, we can move past that. But socially... pregnancy is viewed as something the woman is responsible for.

Sure, we give lip service to "it takes two to tango"... but realistically, in practice, the man's responsibility is NOT to prevent a pregnancy, the man's responsibility is only to provide financial support for the care of a baby - after it has been delivered. That's all.

When it comes to being responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy, that is socially viewed as being on the women. The woman is the one who is expected to obtain a doctor's visit and get a prescription and go to the pharmacy to pick up the pills and take them every single day so there's no breaks and just suffer through the side effects of those drugs. And if something goes wrong, the woman is frequently told "well, you should have been more careful".

Men don't face that judgement.

At the very best, we mouth the words that men should wear condoms. But at the end of the day, there's no way to FORCE a man to wear a condom. A man can say "oh yes, I put it on" and can lie. A man can wear it wrong, break it, it can slip off. And if that happens... it ends up STILL being on the woman to have been more careful - she should have made sure he was using it right. And if she didn't, well, that's the risk that she took.

Men (not all men) dismiss out of hand any situation where the man lied or used coercion or force. "Oh that's rape" as if that doesn't count. As if that doesn't still leave a woman pregnant. As if the woman isn't somehow still stuck with the health risks and the burden of pregnancy. As if saying those magic words "it was rape" makes it not count. Well guess what? To the woman, it still fucking counts. And when only around 1% of rapes actually get convicted, it matters a whole fucking lot!

The entire point of this discussion has been that women bear the burden of both pregnancy and responsibility for prevention, men bear neither. That's the fucking point. It's not about it taking both a sperm and an egg, we fucking know that already. It's about the fact that the entire fucking burden is on women.

And we would very much like men to share the burden, and be EQUALLY responsible for prevention of an unwanted pregnancy. Especially now that we have lost the right to determine whether or not we want to continue that pregnancy or terminate it.
 
Emily Lake said:
You know what? I'm tired of this argument. It's frankly dumb.

Here is my position: In the current world, the social view of responsibility when it comes to pregnancy is almost entirely on the shoulders of women. Biologically, there's no escaping that women have the burden of gestation and delivery, that's how it works, we can move past that. But socially... pregnancy is viewed as something the woman is responsible for.

Sure, we give lip service to "it takes two to tango"... but realistically, in practice, the man's responsibility is NOT to prevent a pregnancy, the man's responsibility is only to provide financial support for the care of a baby - after it has been delivered. That's all.

When it comes to being responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy, that is socially viewed as being on the women. The woman is the one who is expected to obtain a doctor's visit and get a prescription and go to the pharmacy to pick up the pills and take them every single day so there's no breaks and just suffer through the side effects of those drugs. And if something goes wrong, the woman is frequently told "well, you should have been more careful".

Men don't face that judgement.

At the very best, we mouth the words that men should wear condoms. But at the end of the day, there's no way to FORCE a man to wear a condom. A man can say "oh yes, I put it on" and can lie. A man can wear it wrong, break it, it can slip off. And if that happens... it ends up STILL being on the woman to have been more careful - she should have made sure he was using it right. And if she didn't, well, that's the risk that she took.

Men (not all men) dismiss out of hand any situation where the man lied or used coercion or force. "Oh that's rape" as if that doesn't count. As if that doesn't still leave a woman pregnant. As if the woman isn't somehow still stuck with the health risks and the burden of pregnancy. As if saying those magic words "it was rape" makes it not count. Well guess what? To the woman, it still fucking counts. And when only around 1% of rapes actually get convicted, it matters a whole fucking lot!

The entire point of this discussion has been that women bear the burden of both pregnancy and responsibility for prevention, men bear neither. That's the fucking point. It's not about it taking both a sperm and an egg, we fucking know that already. It's about the fact that the entire fucking burden is on women.

And we would very much like men to share the burden, and be EQUALLY responsible for prevention of an unwanted pregnancy. Especially now that we have lost the right to determine whether or not we want to continue that pregnancy or terminate it.
Click to expand...
This is yet another rehash of what has already been said. The biological reality is that women get pregnant by having sex with men. If they really, really don't want to get pregnant then they need to think long and hard about having sex with men. And if men don't want to get women pregnant, they really, really need to think long and hard about having sex with women. Both parties, the man and the woman are culpable in any pregnancy.
 
Emily Lake said:
You know what? I'm tired of this argument. It's frankly dumb.

Here is my position: In the current world, the social view of responsibility when it comes to pregnancy is almost entirely on the shoulders of women. Biologically, there's no escaping that women have the burden of gestation and delivery, that's how it works, we can move past that. But socially... pregnancy is viewed as something the woman is responsible for.

Sure, we give lip service to "it takes two to tango"... but realistically, in practice, the man's responsibility is NOT to prevent a pregnancy, the man's responsibility is only to provide financial support for the care of a baby - after it has been delivered. That's all.

When it comes to being responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy, that is socially viewed as being on the women. The woman is the one who is expected to obtain a doctor's visit and get a prescription and go to the pharmacy to pick up the pills and take them every single day so there's no breaks and just suffer through the side effects of those drugs. And if something goes wrong, the woman is frequently told "well, you should have been more careful".

Men don't face that judgement.

At the very best, we mouth the words that men should wear condoms. But at the end of the day, there's no way to FORCE a man to wear a condom. A man can say "oh yes, I put it on" and can lie. A man can wear it wrong, break it, it can slip off. And if that happens... it ends up STILL being on the woman to have been more careful - she should have made sure he was using it right. And if she didn't, well, that's the risk that she took.

Men (not all men) dismiss out of hand any situation where the man lied or used coercion or force. "Oh that's rape" as if that doesn't count. As if that doesn't still leave a woman pregnant. As if the woman isn't somehow still stuck with the health risks and the burden of pregnancy. As if saying those magic words "it was rape" makes it not count. Well guess what? To the woman, it still fucking counts. And when only around 1% of rapes actually get convicted, it matters a whole fucking lot!

The entire point of this discussion has been that women bear the burden of both pregnancy and responsibility for prevention, men bear neither. That's the fucking point. It's not about it taking both a sperm and an egg, we fucking know that already. It's about the fact that the entire fucking burden is on women.

And we would very much like men to share the burden, and be EQUALLY responsible for prevention of an unwanted pregnancy. Especially now that we have lost the right to determine whether or not we want to continue that pregnancy or terminate it.
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Emily, the jerks who need to hear this are incapable of even considering that an unwanted pregnancy has anything to do with them or that they should play any role in preventing pregnancy.

One can only hope that their attitudes are so obvious that they are not afforded any opportunity to impregnate anyone, ever.
 
Toni said:
One can only hope that their attitudes are so obvious that they are not afforded any opportunity to impregnate anyone, ever.
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Finally, you agree women can avoid getting pregnant by not having sex with a man.
 
TSwizzle said:
The biological reality is that women get pregnant by having sex with men. If they really, really don't want to get pregnant then they need to think long and hard about having sex with men.
Click to expand...
We've been hearing this message our entire life. Women have been hearing this message throughout history - and so have men. Nobody actually disagrees with this, you know. I'll just point out again that this is the standard issue message that is hammered into our heads over and over and over.

"If women don't want to get pregnant, they should keep their legs closed (like a good girl)"

TSwizzle said:
And if men don't want to get women pregnant, they really, really need to think long and hard about having sex with women.
Click to expand...

Will you help amplify that message? Will you help make that view as common, and as much of the default message?
 
TSwizzle said:
Emily Lake said:
You know what? I'm tired of this argument. It's frankly dumb.

Here is my position: In the current world, the social view of responsibility when it comes to pregnancy is almost entirely on the shoulders of women. Biologically, there's no escaping that women have the burden of gestation and delivery, that's how it works, we can move past that. But socially... pregnancy is viewed as something the woman is responsible for.

Sure, we give lip service to "it takes two to tango"... but realistically, in practice, the man's responsibility is NOT to prevent a pregnancy, the man's responsibility is only to provide financial support for the care of a baby - after it has been delivered. That's all.

When it comes to being responsible for preventing an unwanted pregnancy, that is socially viewed as being on the women. The woman is the one who is expected to obtain a doctor's visit and get a prescription and go to the pharmacy to pick up the pills and take them every single day so there's no breaks and just suffer through the side effects of those drugs. And if something goes wrong, the woman is frequently told "well, you should have been more careful".

Men don't face that judgement.

At the very best, we mouth the words that men should wear condoms. But at the end of the day, there's no way to FORCE a man to wear a condom. A man can say "oh yes, I put it on" and can lie. A man can wear it wrong, break it, it can slip off. And if that happens... it ends up STILL being on the woman to have been more careful - she should have made sure he was using it right. And if she didn't, well, that's the risk that she took.

Men (not all men) dismiss out of hand any situation where the man lied or used coercion or force. "Oh that's rape" as if that doesn't count. As if that doesn't still leave a woman pregnant. As if the woman isn't somehow still stuck with the health risks and the burden of pregnancy. As if saying those magic words "it was rape" makes it not count. Well guess what? To the woman, it still fucking counts. And when only around 1% of rapes actually get convicted, it matters a whole fucking lot!

The entire point of this discussion has been that women bear the burden of both pregnancy and responsibility for prevention, men bear neither. That's the fucking point. It's not about it taking both a sperm and an egg, we fucking know that already. It's about the fact that the entire fucking burden is on women.

And we would very much like men to share the burden, and be EQUALLY responsible for prevention of an unwanted pregnancy. Especially now that we have lost the right to determine whether or not we want to continue that pregnancy or terminate it.
Click to expand...
This is yet another rehash of what has already been said. The biological reality is that women get pregnant by having sex with men. If they really, really don't want to get pregnant then they need to think long and hard about having sex with men. And if men don't want to get women pregnant, they really, really need to think long and hard about having sex with women. Both parties, the man and the woman are culpable in any pregnancy.
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Any pregnancy? Including rape?
 
Emily Lake said:
You what bothers me most in this thread? It's that the only posters arguing against Toni's (and my) rhetorical position are all men. Not all of the male posters have done so... but only male posters have.
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I keep pointing out that certain elements of compartmentalization around male brain developments in all stages of life and exacerbated by testosterone may be at play.

They may not know how they unconsciously contribute to a culture of rape and enablement and they may have something in their head clouding their thoughts on the matter and that something may, for many, be testosterone based.

I would presume any such effect is a trait that is self-selecting, much like the trait of "desires to live", because it contributed to the success of the whole genetic complex.

It's a "group (of male affect) and individual (if I get my chance)" benefit. It's just parasitic to the out-group.

There's a strong selection pressure though for an intelligent species to develop some manner of powerful obfuscational process in some respects, especially around Darwinian reproduction.

I would as soon identify it widely and let personal selection pressures in an environment of consent make the trait rare.
 
Emily Lake said:
TSwizzle said:
The biological reality is that women get pregnant by having sex with men. If they really, really don't want to get pregnant then they need to think long and hard about having sex with men.
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We've been hearing this message our entire life. Women have been hearing this message throughout history
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And yet women continue to get pregnant and then some women moan about it and blame the man.

No, women have some responsibility too.

And in reality, most women know this and acknowledge the risks they and their partners take. That's just the way it is. Couples take risks and some of them end up with an unwanted pregnancy. They figure it out between them.

I suspect it is young people this happens to more frequently, young people are risk takers.
 

Understanding Pregnancy Resulting from Rape in the United States |Violence Prevention|Injury Center|CDC

The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS) consists of population-based surveillance data, generating accurate and reliable incidence and prevalence estimates for Initmate Partner Violence, Sexual Violence, and stalking victimization
www.cdc.gov www.cdc.gov

About 5% of all women reporting rape become pregnant due to rape.

  • Of women who were raped by an intimate partner, 30% experienced a form of reproductive coercion by the same partner. Specifically, about 20% reported that their partner had tried to get them pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control. About 23% reported their partner refused to use a condom.
  • Women raped by an intimate partner who reported RRP were significantly more likely to have experienced reproductive coercion compared to women who were raped by an intimate partner but did not become pregnant
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TSwizzle said:
And yet women continue to get pregnant and then some women moan about it and blame the man.

No, women have some responsibility too.

And in reality, most women know this and acknowledge the risks they and their partners take. That's just the way it is. Couples take risks and some of them end up with an unwanted pregnancy. They figure it out between them.

I suspect it is young people this happens to more frequently, young people are risk takers.
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This is one of the most blatantly disingenuous responses I've seen in a while.
 
Emily Lake said:
TSwizzle said:
And yet women continue to get pregnant and then some women moan about it and blame the man.

No, women have some responsibility too.

And in reality, most women know this and acknowledge the risks they and their partners take. That's just the way it is. Couples take risks and some of them end up with an unwanted pregnancy. They figure it out between them.

I suspect it is young people this happens to more frequently, young people are risk takers.
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This is one of the most blatantly disingenuous responses I've seen in a while.
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"blatantly disingenuous"? How so?
 
TSwizzle said:
"blatantly disingenuous"? How so?
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That would be in the things you cut out, as if they didn't exist...

Emily Lake said:
TSwizzle said:
The biological reality is that women get pregnant by having sex with men. If they really, really don't want to get pregnant then they need to think long and hard about having sex with men.
Click to expand...
We've been hearing this message our entire life. Women have been hearing this message throughout history - and so have men. Nobody actually disagrees with this, you know. I'll just point out again that this is the standard issue message that is hammered into our heads over and over and over.

"If women don't want to get pregnant, they should keep their legs closed (like a good girl)"

TSwizzle said:
And if men don't want to get women pregnant, they really, really need to think long and hard about having sex with women.
Click to expand...

Will you help amplify that message? Will you help make that view as common, and as much of the default message?
Click to expand...
 
Emily Lake said:
Bomb#20 said:
Toni said:
My apologies: A better word would have been determined. In human reproduction, sex is determined by the father.
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Nonsense. Sex is determined by which sperm wins a swim meet. The father does not determine which sperm wins. You might as well claim Parker Brothers determines whether you land on Boardwalk since it manufactured the dice.
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This is... questionable... framing.

Females ONLY contribute X chromosomes. The determination of whether a fetus is male or female comes ENTIRELY from the male contribution of sperm. The father's contribution determines the sex of the fetus. It may not be intentional, it may not be by "choice"... but the mother cannot affect the sex of the fetus in any way at all.
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That doesn't make any sense. The male contribution of sperm contains equal amounts of X and Y chromosomes. When a given sperm is formed, whether it contains an X or a Y is random; it isn't anything the male sperm contributor has any control over. What route a sperm takes after it leaves his body, likewise -- he's not determining which sperm reaches the ovum. If having the body where a random event happens that ultimately makes a difference to the outcome is all it takes to count as "determination", then why the bejesus doesn't the random location of the ovum in the woman's uterus symmetrically qualify as the woman "determining" whether a fetus is male or female? If her body puts the ovum in the path of a male sperm then the fetus is male and if her body puts the ovum in the path of a female sperm then the fetus is female.

Which is to say, yes, the mother can absolutely affect the sex of the fetus: if her body puts her egg here it will be male; if she puts her egg there it will be female. She has no control over where she puts it, true; but then the father has no control over whether his body puts an X or a Y in the winning sperm.
 
Emily Lake said:
TSwizzle said:
"blatantly disingenuous"? How so?
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That would be in the things you cut out, as if they didn't exist...
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It’s not me trying to be disingenuous. I’m addressing the parts I feel are relevant and passing over the parts that I feel are irrelevant.


Will you help amplify that message? Will you help make that view as common, and as much of the default message?

I don’t think there’s a practical way I can do that. Put a bumper sticker on my car?
 
Emily Lake said:
Bomb#20 said:
The grandmother produces the father. The father produces the sperm. The sperm determines the sex. The father producing the sperm determines the sex. The grandmother producing the father producing the sperm determines the sex.
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This is wrong though.

The grandfather is the one created the father, not the grandmother.
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Cut to video of the grandmother spitting out her tea like Jon Stewart when she hears you say this. :biggrin:

The grandmother carried and delivered the father... but the father being a father as opposed to a mother was entirely determined by the sperm from the grandfather.
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Toni's argument was "The father produces the sperm. The sperm determines the sex. The father producing the sperm determines the sex.". She was taking for granted that "determines the sex" is transitive over "produces". So I simply took her premise and applied it a second time. "Father being a father as opposed to a mother" is not what Toni assumed "determines" is transitive over.

In any event, even if for purposes of analyzing Toni's argument you're right that it was the grandfather who created the father, her argument still falls to the reductio ad absurdum. In that case it would imply

"The grandfather produces the father. The father produces the sperm. The sperm determines the sex. The father producing the sperm determines the sex. The grandfather producing the father producing the sperm determines the sex."​

and

"The great-grandfather produces the grandfather. The grandfather produces the father. The father produces the sperm. The sperm determines the sex. The father producing the sperm determines the sex. The grandfather producing the father producing the sperm determines the sex. The great-grandfather producing the grandfather producing the father producing the sperm determines the sex."​

and so forth are all correct arguments. The responsibility for a woman being female is pushed back to the male ur-therian, some time in the Jurassic.
 
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