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It's not the guns

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Jason Harvestdancer

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New York bodega worker’s murder charge sparks self-defense debate
Exclusive: Hamilton Heights bodega clerk arrested for murder says he acted in self-defense during last week's incident
Calls Grow for Manhattan DA to Drop Murder Charge in Bodega ‘Self-Defense' Stabbing

TL;DR summary: Thug threatens small business owner. Small business owner stabs thug in self defense, killing thug. DA who believes in no cash bail and letting violent offenders out until trial imposes $250,000 bail, later lowered to $50,000 due to public outcry.

Those who support stricter controls on firearms like to say it is all about public safety. It isn't. This guy used a knife to defend himself, and is facing felony charges.

It is about self defense, always has been and always will be. Guns are just more effective in self defense than most other tools a person might use. This is far more clear cut than any of the other incidents to date. Yes, Rittenhouse crossed state lines. That's why this is more clear cut.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Those who support stricter controls on firearms like to say it is all about public safety. It isn't.
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In 2020 there were 303 justifiable homicides by private citizens and 19,515 unjustifiable ones in the US. The murder rate was 5.9/100,000. Australia's murder rate was 1.1/100,000 in the same year. If the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive. Saving 303 lives at the expense of 15,876 others for the sake of lax firearm controls is a pisspoor deal.
 
This argument appears to assume that if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels.
 
Bomb#20 said:
This argument appears to assume that if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels.
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My post is not even an argument. It is limited to asserting that "If the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive." It does not hypothesise anything regarding the possibility of implementing Aussie style firearms controls, let alone what the outcome thereof might be.
 
Hermit said:
Bomb#20 said:
This argument appears to assume that if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels.
Click to expand...
My post is not even an argument. It is limited to asserting that "If the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive."
Click to expand...
No it isn't. If your post were limited to that then it would have ended there.

It does not hypothesise anything regarding the possibility of implementing Aussie style firearms controls, let alone what the outcome thereof might be.
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Sure it does. It calls our high murder rate a "deal" and says it's "for the sake of lax firearm controls". But if we're stuck with the high murder rate whether there are lax firearm controls or not then it isn't a deal at all, so it isn't a deal for the sake of anything. It's just a tragedy.
 
Bomb#20 said:
Hermit said:
Bomb#20 said:
This argument appears to assume that if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels.
Click to expand...
My post is not even an argument. It is limited to asserting that "If the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive."
Click to expand...
No it isn't. If your post were limited to that then it would have ended there.

It does not hypothesise anything regarding the possibility of implementing Aussie style firearms controls, let alone what the outcome thereof might be.
Click to expand...
Sure it does. It calls our high murder rate a "deal" and says it's "for the sake of lax firearm controls". But if we're stuck with the high murder rate whether there are lax firearm controls or not then it isn't a deal at all, so it isn't a deal for the sake of anything. It's just a tragedy.
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Had I argued that "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" I would have said as much. For as long as the Second Amendment of the US constitution stands I regard implementing Aussie style firearms controls in the US as an impossibility. My post was limited to observing that "if the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive" and yes, "saving 303 lives at the expense of 15,876 others for the sake of lax firearm controls is a pisspoor deal". Your insistence that I assumed "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" is an injection of your own making.
 
Draw/post a picture of the people doing most of the shootings.

What can we learn from that?
 
It has become routine around here. Craziness. Random drive by shootings on the road are becoming routine. It is not just high crime areas it is in what you would consider quiet neighborhoods.

At a concert in Seattle recently somebody started shooting at the crowd outside the venue.

One car bumped another on the road with a scratch and the car that was hit started shooting at the other car. A general cultural breakdown of civil norms.

Young peope on the streets acting like thugs. Right out of a movie.
 
Hermit said:
SIB said:
Draw/post a picture of the people doing most of the shootings.

What can we learn from that?
Click to expand...
Most of them would not have shot at anyone if handguns were not so readily available.
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avoidance ...

The logical first step is lets study the picture of the person(s) doing the shooting. What can we learn?

So lets look at the person(s) doing most of the shootings. What can we learn? to better address gun safety?
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Bomb#20 said:
This argument appears to assume that if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels.
Click to expand...

If stricter gun laws saved only one life it would be worth it.
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"Saved one life ..."

Not logical.
Not fair.

This is not about one person.
Even if its my kid.

But lets draw a picture of the people doing the most shooting ... its a great starting place.
 
steve_bank said:
It has become routine around here. Craziness. Random drive by shootings on the road are becoming routine. It is not just high crime areas it is in what you would consider quiet neighborhoods.

At a concert in Seattle recently somebody started shooting at the crowd outside the venue.

One car bumped another on the road with a scratch and the car that was hit started shooting at the other car. A general cultural breakdown of civil norms.

Young peope on the streets acting like thugs. Right out of a movie.
Click to expand...
Who did the shooting? Can we get a pict of who they think did it?
 
SIB said:
Hermit said:
SIB said:
Draw/post a picture of the people doing most of the shootings.

What can we learn from that?
Click to expand...
Most of them would not have shot at anyone if handguns were not so readily available.
Click to expand...
avoidance ...
Click to expand...
Not at all. Three quarters of the shooters shot someone because they had a handgun at hand.
SIB said:
The logical first step is lets study the picture of the person(s) doing the shooting.
Click to expand...
The logical first conclusion from studying the picture of the person(s) doing the shooting is that three quarters of the time they had a handgun at hand.
SIB said:
What can we learn?
Click to expand...
Three quarters of the shooters shot someone because they had a handgun at hand.
SIB said:
So lets look at the person(s) doing most of the shootings.
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OK. Here is one of thousands who has ready access to a handgun:



You appear to have problems comprehending that the person(s) doing most of the shootings are people who have ready access to a handgun, so I'll reiterate: The person(s) doing most of the shootings are people who have ready access to a handgun.

SIB said:
What can we learn? to better address gun safety?
Click to expand...
Limit accessibility to handguns.
 
steve_bank said:
It has become routine around here. Craziness. Random drive by shootings on the road are becoming routine. It is not just high crime areas it is in what you would consider quiet neighborhoods.

At a concert in Seattle recently somebody started shooting at the crowd outside the venue.

One car bumped another on the road with a scratch and the car that was hit started shooting at the other car. A general cultural breakdown of civil norms.

Young peope on the streets acting like thugs. Right out of a movie.
Click to expand...
I don't know if it's the same incident you're talking about, but the last time my wife was in Seattle she got caught up in a crowd running from what they thought at the time was an active shooter targeting the public. It turned out to be "just" gang members shooting at each other and evidently not caring if they hit bystanders.
 
SIB said:
steve_bank said:
It has become routine around here. Craziness. Random drive by shootings on the road are becoming routine. It is not just high crime areas it is in what you would consider quiet neighborhoods.

At a concert in Seattle recently somebody started shooting at the crowd outside the venue.

One car bumped another on the road with a scratch and the car that was hit started shooting at the other car. A general cultural breakdown of civil norms.

Young peope on the streets acting like thugs. Right out of a movie.
Click to expand...
Who did the shooting? Can we get a pict of who they think did it?
Click to expand...
According to regional law enforcement it is generally teens to young adults across demographics. Seattle police have announced a new statistics program as part of violence reduction to focus on where it is.

That is part of it. In Tacoma a large crowd of younfg people watching illegal street racing surrounded and were beating on the car of a cop when he arrived. He ended up running over somebody trying to exit and was not charged with anything.

A lot of it is teen and young adult gangs. Gangs shooting at each other in running gun battles hitting bystanders and buildings has become routine.

Just before the pandemic in downtwn Settle on 3rd ave near Benaroyal Ha;ll a mjor venue a gunfight broke out with automatic weapns between rival gang members hitt9ng bystanders.

Hearing gunshots around where I live is not unusual. Shootngs have become common in the International District where I live. It is not just guns it is general vioelnce and assaults. Two visitors from China were just assaulted with the guy yelling go back to China.

Recently somebody in my building out jogging pulled two young people off an old Asian woman who they had down on the ground kicking her trying to get her purse. This stuff is now common.

Obviously without guns there would be no shootings, but I see it more as a symptom of cultural and social problems causing the shootings.

Guns are harder then ever to get.

From reporting teen mental health problems are on the rise. Teems and young adults increasingly have no close peers and feel isolated.

The fact we now have a national mental health crisis emergency number 988 says something about our culture.

As to saving lives ban drinking abd driving, put beartalyzers in cars, and limit cae speeds.....
 
SIB said:
Hermit said:
SIB said:
Draw/post a picture of the people doing most of the shootings.

What can we learn from that?
Click to expand...
Most of them would not have shot at anyone if handguns were not so readily available.
Click to expand...
avoidance ...

The logical first step is lets study the picture of the person(s) doing the shooting. What can we learn?

So lets look at the person(s) doing most of the shootings. What can we learn? to better address gun safety?
Click to expand...
I'm not really a good enough artist to draw a recognizable picture of thousands of people; but I take it you mean "picture" as a metaphor for a description. Statistically, the people doing most of the shootings are overwhelmingly male. What we can learn from this to better address gun safety is that we need to either put the entire male population of America on estrogen or else have Bill Gates secretly implant tracking chips in us in our Covid vaccinations.
 
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