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It's not the guns

Hermit said:
Had I argued that "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" I would have said as much.
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Didn't say you argued it; said you assumed it in your argument. Not the same thing.

For as long as the Second Amendment of the US constitution stands I regard implementing Aussie style firearms controls in the US as an impossibility.
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And for the foreseeable future removing the Second Amendment is an impossibility.

My post was limited to observing that "if the murder rate in the US had been the same as Australia's 15,876 of the murdered people would have remained alive" and yes, "saving 303 lives at the expense of 15,876 others for the sake of lax firearm controls is a [poor] deal". Your insistence that I assumed "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" is an injection of your own making.
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America's gun-lovers keep arguing as though the part of the text about a well regulated militia doesn't mean anything. You keep arguing as though the part of the text about the net expense of 15000-odd lives "for the sake of lax firearm controls" being a lousy deal doesn't mean anything.
 
steve_bank said:
Obviously without guns there would be no shootings, but I see it more as a symptom of cultural and social problems causing the shootings.
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^^^^ This. ^^^^

We shoot one another because there are hundreds of millions of guns here and because we're Americans. If we somehow repealed the second Amendment and enacted Australia-style gun laws, there would still be hundreds of millions of guns here and we'd still be Americans.
 
Bomb#20 said:
... I take it you mean "picture" as a metaphor for a description.
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Just to note: The silly stick figure response was me saying "you need to 'draw a picture' instead of only suggest that others do it". The vacuity of the stick figure is an analogy to his vagueness. People can read anything into it. I was tempted to show something like this:
unnamed.jpg

But I don't want to read too much into it.
 
abaddon said:
Just to note: The silly stick figure response was me saying "you need to 'draw a picture' instead of only suggest that others do it". The vacuity of the stick figure is an analogy to his vagueness. People can read anything into it. I was tempted to show something like this:
View attachment 39475

But I don't want to read too much into it.
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Of course! That's how we can find out how to solve gun violence: ask a ninja!
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
New York bodega worker’s murder charge sparks self-defense debate
Exclusive: Hamilton Heights bodega clerk arrested for murder says he acted in self-defense during last week's incident
Calls Grow for Manhattan DA to Drop Murder Charge in Bodega ‘Self-Defense' Stabbing

TL;DR summary: Thug threatens small business owner. Small business owner stabs thug in self defense, killing thug. DA who believes in no cash bail and letting violent offenders out until trial imposes $250,000 bail, later lowered to $50,000 due to public outcry.

Those who support stricter controls on firearms like to say it is all about public safety. It isn't. This guy used a knife to defend himself, and is facing felony charges.

It is about self defense, always has been and always will be. Guns are just more effective in self defense than most other tools a person might use. This is far more clear cut than any of the other incidents to date. Yes, Rittenhouse crossed state lines. That's why this is more clear cut.
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This seems like a non sequitur as I read it. It doesn’t make the case for gun non-control.

My take:

The knife guy should not be facing charges
and
He proved that people don’t need guns for self defense.
 
Rhea said:
My take:

The knife guy should not be facing charges
and
He proved that people don’t need guns for self defense.
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I'm reserving judgement on knife guy. We haven't seen the entire video. I'm suspecting he did a prison shivving, where you keep stabbing until the guy is dead or you get tired. I'll wait for more details.
 
SIB said:
Hermit said:
SIB said:
Draw/post a picture of the people doing most of the shootings.

What can we learn from that?
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Most of them would not have shot at anyone if handguns were not so readily available.
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avoidance ...

The logical first step is lets study the picture of the person(s) doing the shooting. What can we learn?

So lets look at the person(s) doing most of the shootings. What can we learn? to better address gun safety?
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It sounds like you’re trying to say something without saying it. So I’ll parse this for you, and you say, explicitly, whether I’m wrong, okay?


You’re trying to say, “you can tell by looking at people who pulled the trigger and that will tell you that Black people are the criminal element here and that Blackness is the problem, not guns.”

Amirite? That’s your thesis?


That assumes that the only element of a stack of crimes that matters is the last one. That in your world, there are zero accomplices and zero conspirators.

As an engineer, we are taught to “draw a box around” the system we want to study. Whatever happens outside the box is not considered. We are also taught to not be stupid or misleading about where we decide on the box. For example, if you draw the box around the electric car and claim it is “zero emissions!” you are not telling the truth. You need to include all the actual factors. If you draw a box around Yendegaia, Chile, and claim “no climate change!” you are not telling the truth. You need to include the entire climate.

Likewise, if you draw a box around criminal trigger-pullers and claim, “no gun problem!” you are not telling the truth. (You *are* telling on yourself, however). You need to include the chain of gun access. There are criminals all along the way, and there are a huge number of deaths at the hands of trigger-pullers who are not criminals.

Let’s start with the accessories and conspirators, shall we? Let’s look at a picture of the first person in line that turns a gun from legal to illegal. You’ll find that race is a factor, but it’s a different race than you thought. The correct conclusion here, IMHO is that race is not a factor after all, on the proper-sized box. It’s lack of accountability in gun ownership. Manufacturers allowing straw purchases, just like the drug companies did. Dealers allowing straw purchases, just like the pharmacies did. We need gun control laws enacted and enforced to stop these crimes that result in murders.

A lie-by-exclusion will be noticed and called out.

If you want to say, “it’s not the guns, it’s the people,” then you need to include the people who manufacture and market guns irresponsibly, the people who distribute of guns unlawfully, the people who sell guns unlawfully, the people who store guns irresponsibly, AND the people who fire guns unlawfully or irresponsibly.

If you’re failing to include all of those “people” in your scope of people, then you’re telling on yourself.
 
Bomb#20 said:
Hermit said:
Had I argued that "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" I would have said as much.
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Didn't say you argued it; said you assumed it in your argument. Not the same thing.
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WTF?
Hermit said:
Your insistence that I assumed "if the U.S. were to enact strict firearm controls then the murder rate would drop to Australian levels" is an injection of your own making.
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ZiprHead said:
I'm reserving judgement on knife guy. We haven't seen the entire video. I'm suspecting he did a prison shivving, where you keep stabbing until the guy is dead or you get tired. I'll wait for more details.
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I’ll re-calibrate if more details change my mind. But in the meantime, I have understanding of someone, faced with a gun, who keeps stabbing until the threat is absolutely, positively, completely stopped.
 
Rhea said:
ZiprHead said:
I'm reserving judgement on knife guy. We haven't seen the entire video. I'm suspecting he did a prison shivving, where you keep stabbing until the guy is dead or you get tired. I'll wait for more details.
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I’ll re-calibrate if more details change my mind. But in the meantime, I have understanding of someone, faced with a gun, who keeps stabbing until the threat is absolutely, positively, completely stopped.
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Hmmm, I don't remember the guy having a gun. If so, I'll side with you.
 
If stricter gun laws can save 5,000 lives it would be worth it.

Brain damaged clowns with guns are turning America into a shooting gallery. Is that OKwith anybody here?
 
Hermit said:
Bomb#20 said:
Didn't say you argued it; said you assumed it in your argument. Not the same thing.
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WTF?
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Is this a difficult concept? Consider Pascal's Wager. Pascal argues that belief is a game-theoretic strategy with a higher expected payoff than disbelief. He doesn't argue that if there's a God then He must prefer theists to atheists in Heaven; Pascal just takes that for granted as an unstated premise.
 
ZiprHead said:
Rhea said:
ZiprHead said:
I'm reserving judgement on knife guy. We haven't seen the entire video. I'm suspecting he did a prison shivving, where you keep stabbing until the guy is dead or you get tired. I'll wait for more details.
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I’ll re-calibrate if more details change my mind. But in the meantime, I have understanding of someone, faced with a gun, who keeps stabbing until the threat is absolutely, positively, completely stopped.
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Hmmm, I don't remember the guy having a gun. If so, I'll side with you.
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Oh - thanks for the correction. No, it doesn’t say the customer had a gun. I conflated the OP statement with the incident. That does make the self-defense claim less easy to understand.
 
Guns do not sho0t themsel;ves. Culture produces peole who pull th triiggers.

A few weeks ago two Seattle police off8cers spent 90 minutes talking to a group of us in out r building and answring q8etions.

As one officer pit it gun play is as likely to break out in an upscale club as in a dve bar, it is across demographics.

Blamng it on availability of guns s simplistic and if nothing else is unscientific and emotional.

The reporting of increasing obesity, mental health problems, and addiction of kids points to a fundamentally unhealthy culture.

I don't have cable or net TV, but the broadcast channels I get are awash in gun violence coupled withagressive music, manhood, and sex. Powerful images for young men.

In movies and 50s 60s TV gun vciolence was required to have a moral context. Our broad interpretation of the 1st Amendment got rid of that. Entertainment presenting dysfunctional, antisocial, and violent behavior will impact culture.

I have no idea who is who im modern pop cu relationship lrure but what I do see in the news is riddled with stories of mental health problems. The Johney Dep story is one of a dysfunctional relationship cpiled with drugs, alchohol, and abuse. These kinds of public figures are cultural heroes. Curt Cobain blew his head off, yet is a pop culture icon. Dysfunctional behavior is now normalized.

We are reaping what we sow.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
If stricter gun laws can save 5,000 lives it would be worth it.

Brain damaged clowns with guns are turning America into a shooting gallery. Is that OKwith anybody here?
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I dispute your use of ‘are turning’. The correct tense is ‘have turned’; It’s not a current, or even particularly recent, change. Indeed, things seem to be a little better now than they were fifty years ago.
 
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