Rape victim ordered to pay her abuser child support

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Emily Lake said:

IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ADULT TO NOT FUCK MINORS

Click to expand...

Succinctly and clearly put.

Emily Lake said:

It is NOT the responsibility of the minor to not get herself fucked by an adult. It's a twisted kind of need to make the woman into the bad guy you've got going on here.

Click to expand...

Sad that needed to be said.

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

Because there's a difference in life experience, gullibility, naivete, etc. that plays into the relationship. It's not 100% guaranteed that a 30yo and a 21 yo is a bad mix, exceptions can certainly occur. But in the majority of cases, the older person is looking to take advantage of the trust of the younger person. The larger the age gap when the younger is a teen or barely a twenty-ish, the less I trust the motivations of the older person. And I don't really trust the judgement of the younger person either.

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

Because there's a difference in life experience, gullibility, naivete, etc. that plays into the relationship. It's not 100% guaranteed that a 30yo and a 21 yo is a bad mix, exceptions can certainly occur. But in the majority of cases, the older person is looking to take advantage of the trust of the younger person. The larger the age gap when the younger is a teen or barely a twenty-ish, the less I trust the motivations of the older person. And I don't really trust the judgement of the younger person either.

Click to expand...

When I was at university, a friend of mine (female, 34), picked up a 19 year old male at a nightclub and they had sex. It didn't raise my hackles because I assume 19 year olds know if they want sex with somebody.

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Toni said:

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

Click to expand...

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

Click to expand...

Why?

Click to expand...

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

Click to expand...

I think you have a regressive view of women as moral agents.

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

I think the 34 year old woman was most likely taking advantage of a 19 year old boy. She’s not looking for something serious and neither is he, probably. He’s probably looking for an experienced older woman. She’s looking fir energetic and not complicated. Can he get hurt? Yes. It would be wrong of her to string him along. But if they’re both just looking fir sex? Maybe ok.

If you’re asking how I would feel if some 34 year old woman was sniffing around my 19 year old son? I’d watch her like a hawk and get his dad involved.

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

Well, on average, you’d be wrong.

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

I think the 34 year old woman was most likely taking advantage of a 19 year old boy. She’s not looking for something serious and neither is he, probably. He’s probably looking for an experienced older woman. She’s looking fir energetic and not complicated. Can he get hurt? Yes. It would be wrong of her to string him along. But if they’re both just looking fir sex? Maybe ok.

Click to expand...

It was indeed just sex. I don't know that he was particularly looking for an older woman, but my friend was what some would call a MILF at the time.

Toni said:

If you’re asking how I would feel if some 34 year old woman was sniffing around my 19 year old son? I’d watch her like a hawk and get his dad involved.

Click to expand...

No I wasn't particularly asking that, but I'd have hoped you'd respect his decisions about his body. Seemingly not.

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

Well, on average, you’d be wrong.

Click to expand...

I am wrong by not assuming things?

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

Well, on average, you’d be wrong.

Click to expand...

I am wrong by not assuming things?

Click to expand...

I think that generally speaking, it is safe to assume that if two potential people are significantly far apart in age—and that age difference depends on age! that there is good reason to be worried about a disparity in power.

As I mentioned before: 19-21 year old female and a male 29 and up: warning signs flashing. Not 100% of the time. And it is possible that he’s not attracted to her specifically because she’s young, relatively inexperienced at being an adult, eager to prove she’s an adult. If he cares, he’ll go slow and give her a lot of time to figure herself out without complicating it for her.

Same thing if the genders are reversed.

OTOH, a 25 year old is more likely to to be able to handle the age/maturity level differences. Either gender.

Gospel said:

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:

Suppose on the highway, the speed limit is 55 mph. If I am on the highway driving, I am not communicating that I am driving 55 or less. Enough people drive more than 55 so that it is general knowledge that such inference is bullshit. Additionally, a person can tell when someone is driving way, way more than the limit from simple eyesight.

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Click to expand...

Yeah, they stood out like Jupiter's great red spot. I'd also like to add that any lack of maturity even from a 45-year-old (yes they are out there) was a reason for my nope napkin to get pulled out.

Click to expand...

I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm not your taste, but I'm also damn sure I'd get noped on in a heartbeat because of how much of a fool I act sometimes.

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

Metaphor said:

Emily Lake said:

Metaphor said:

Toni said:

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

Click to expand...

What is a 'power dynamic', and what makes it unequal? Is sex between two adults with an unequal 'power dynamic' morally wrong? Why?

Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say some quiet part out loud, because I think it's likely relevant to some of the views in here.

The motivations for sex are generally different for men versus women.

Let that marinate a bit. Recognize that I'm not saying it's 100% true all the time. I have observed, however, that the relationships between lesbians are different from the relationships between hetero couples, which are different from the relationships between gay men. All of them include some element of sex, and usually some element of emotion. But the mixed are very different.

I strongly suspect that you and Tom view the situation in this thread through a VERY different lens than a hetero man would, and I suspect that the women in this thread view it differently than hetero men. Because generally speaking, women and men have different motivations in seeking sex.

When at least one of the participants is female, there's a very high likelihood that the older participant is taking advantage of their trust and their naivete. Seriously, young women are a mixed up gullible bunch when it comes to sex - especially hetero women, who don't really understand that most of the time men aren't there for the same reason women are.

Click to expand...

So, when I was at university and my 34 year old female friend picked up a 19 year man at a nightclub, you think she was taking advantage of his trust and naivete? Or are your standards simple sexism: you'd only assume a 19 year old woman was having her 'trust and naivete' taken advantage of, if she was being picked up by a 34 year old male?

Emily Lake said:

So I think there's a reasonable chance that the dynamic between a younger man and an older man for gay men is wildly different, and likely more on "equal footing" than would probably be the situation here. I would guess that both men, despite age, are there for the same reason - to get some and have fun. Which is awesome... but it's not generally how women operate, especially not young women.

Click to expand...

I don't assume women cannot desire sex with men, nor do I assume that any sex they have is a function of their 'naivete' and 'trust' being somehow exploited, even when it's with an older man.

Click to expand...

Well, on average, you’d be wrong.

Click to expand...

I am wrong by not assuming things?

Click to expand...

I think that generally speaking, it is safe to assume that if two potential people are significantly far apart in age—and that age difference depends on age! that there is good reason to be worried about a disparity in power.

As I mentioned before: 19-21 year old female and a male 29 and up: warning signs flashing. Not 100% of the time. And it is possible that he’s not attracted to her specifically because she’s young, relatively inexperienced at being an adult, eager to prove she’s an adult. If he cares, he’ll go slow and give her a lot of time to figure herself out without complicating it for her.

Same thing if the genders are reversed.

OTOH, a 25 year old is more likely to to be able to handle the age/maturity level differences. Either gender.

Click to expand...

Pretty much.

There are just so many predators out there who target that explicit age divide you marked out, too. I've seen it first hand and there are issues of such predators in every culture, subculture, counterculture, sexuality group, and gender group.

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

Gospel said:

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

Click to expand...

There is an appeal to someone who is old enough to know what they want and what they are doing, for sure.

Gospel said:

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

Click to expand...

It is mostly just you. Youth (in women and in men) have been sexually desirable in every culture in history.

I literally said that's just me. But thanks for nothing I guess.