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Military to Teach Children in Florida?

Bomb, the difference is that one party flamboyantly acting as themselves against such normative tradition is acting compatibly, in fact seeks to comform compatibly with those around them within reason, and the other is being flamboyant in a mutually exclusive way.

There's no comparing the selfish asshole who would steal the whole stage to dance badly, and the people who are just there to dance at all.
 

Why Florida's plan to recruit veterans as teachers is troubling


Florida is struggling to hire teachers, and Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis’ regressive influence on the state’s education system — affecting signage on the wall to class curriculums — is arguably a prime factor.

But the DeSantis administration declines to look inward to assess why so many teachers have left their jobs. Instead, it's pushing a dubious quick fix: hiring military veterans without degrees to teach.

Florida’s Education Department announced last week that it will give veterans five-year temporary certificates while they finish their bachelor's degrees. Vets must pass subject tests and have completed 60 college credits (around two years of a four-year degree program) to obtain the certificate.

On the one hand, if someone is really qualified to teach and merely hasn't obtained a degree--can prove it by passing qualification testing, while there is a shortage, then I think it makes sense economically and for sake of efficiency to allow those people to temporarily teach until eventually getting through all the bureaucratic red tape. That ought to apply to all qualified persons in a shortage crisis, not merely veterans.

On the other hand, politically, not economically, there is a skew with the military subgroup of people in comparison to non-military that would add a nationalistic, pro-war, reich-wing contingent to the pool of educators?
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.

It seems DeSantis has jumped to option three. The first question to be asked about any proposed solution to a problem is, will it work.

It's been a long standing policy in civil service to give preference to veterans. This is usually done by giving a handicap to any non-veteran who takes a civil service exam. In other words, lower the standards for veterans, which means lower the overall standards. The highest scoring applicant may not get the job, if a veteran also took the exam.

Getting back to the "will it work?" question, how large is the pool of possible teacher candidates and how many of them are interested in becoming teachers? Is the starting pay enough to entice them to become teachers? What about working conditions? That brings us back to the three initial remedies. Lowering standards only works when there are unqualified workers who are unable to take the job under the current standards. Does DeSantis have to create a two tiered pay system, where veterans start at higher pay than a person with a four year degree in education? Improving working conditions doesn't seem to be on the table.

This maybe a pointless exercise, or just a political stunt. Where have we heard that lately?
 
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
 
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
 
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
It's just actually quite hard to do a good job as a teacher. High stress, long hours, low pay.
 
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
So, in reference to this particular situation,
1) what "barriers to entry" should be eliminated that do not lower the standards and
2) do you think only those barriers to entry will be eliminated?
 
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
 
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
It is difficult to become a teacher because standards ought to be high for becoming a teacher.

Barriers to entry are generally only applicable for release when they are artificial. To lower a natural barrier to entry is to get a shitty job done.

Natural barriers to entry must not be assumed through proxy.

The argument is that these barriers are not there for profit and gain except to profit the public trust through good education. Lowering barriers here lowers standards.
 
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
Are there any barriers to entry which do not serve to keep pay high?

Consider this an opportunity to make your position more lucid, or point out some flaw in my statement.
 
It is difficult to become a teacher because standards ought to be high for becoming a teacher.

Barriers to entry are generally only applicable for release when they are artificial. To lower a natural barrier to entry is to get a shitty job done.

Natural barriers to entry must not be assumed through proxy.

The argument is that these barriers are not there for profit and gain except to profit the public trust through good education. Lowering barriers here lowers standards.
Barriers to entry are a legitimate issue in situations where one license covers multiple related things. Mostly this is an issue for the lower level licensed fields--I'm thinking of things like a situation that made the news some time back, needing a cosmetology license to do hair braiding. It can be something of a factor even in high level positions--we have one license "doctor" to cover a range of skills. Off the top of my head that actually covers four things that have some overlap to them: psychiatry, surgery, radiology and the traditional doctor in the office.

What I think should be done about such cases is the licensing procedures should separate out the various cases that exist in their market and decide which skills are needed by which cases and permit licensing of only part of what the board covers. My wife comes from a system that partially does this--separate tracks for doctor and surgeon. The same school, some of the same classes, but lots of different ones. Here we have the psychiatrists and radiologists who will never touch a scalpel yet they spend time and money on learning how. The radiologist will never see anything about the mind of their patient, nor ever prescribe anything, but they have to learn how.
 
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
Are there any barriers to entry which do not serve to keep pay high?

Consider this an opportunity to make your position more lucid, or point out some flaw in my statement.
Ask nurses and teachers, both careers that are female dominated and also suffer greatly under low pay and poor working conditions.
 
Four. Eliminate barriers to entry. (Of course among those who benefit from existing barriers to entry, some can be expected to label the fourth remedy "Lower the standards."; but some standards exist for the purpose not of increasing quality but of reducing competition.)
So, in reference to this particular situation,
1) what "barriers to entry" should be eliminated that do not lower the standards and
2) do you think only those barriers to entry will be eliminated?
1) Not having tried to become certified to teach in Florida, I don't know what all the barriers are and what the reasons for them all are. I was addressing the "basic macroeconomics puzzle".

2) Politicians being what they are, it is entirely likely that Florida will to some degree throw out the baby with the bathwater.

That said, the one barrier to entry I know of that Florida is eliminating that was blatantly unrelated to keeping quality up is that Florida is waiving some licensing fees for veterans.
 
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
Are there any barriers to entry which do not serve to keep pay high?
Barriers to entry serve to keep pay higher than it would otherwise be. Whether that is "high" on some absolute scale is immaterial. Hairdressers are paid less than teachers and yet as Loren points out hairdresser licensing is rife with barriers to entry that exist for the purpose of making it difficult to become a hairdresser in order to keep their pay higher than it would otherwise be. So if you're proposing that since teacher pay is low, no one can seriously claim teachers' pay is high because it's difficult to become a teacher, that's no evidence against there being barriers to entry that keep pay up by making it more difficult to become a teacher.
 
Barriers to entry exist to keep pay high for those who get past the barrier. No one can seriously claim teachers are overpaid because it's difficult to become a teacher.
I don't recall offering an opinion on whether teachers are overpaid. You appear to be trying to reason from an "ought" to an "is".
Are there any barriers to entry which do not serve to keep pay high?
Barriers to entry serve to keep pay higher than it would otherwise be. Whether that is "high" on some absolute scale is immaterial. Hairdressers are paid less than teachers and yet as Loren points out hairdresser licensing is rife with barriers to entry that exist for the purpose of making it difficult to become a hairdresser in order to keep their pay higher than it would otherwise be. So if you're proposing that since teacher pay is low, no one can seriously claim teachers' pay is high because it's difficult to become a teacher, that's no evidence against there being barriers to entry that keep pay up by making it more difficult to become a teacher.
Whether difficult is high on some absolute scale is immaterial. It's not that difficult to become a teacher. For scale, it's very difficult to become a Navy Seal, which is not a job a person pursues because of the pay.

In most states, the requirements to be a teacher is a four year degree and fill out the paperwork. Some states include a competency exam. The exam is the real barrier, as any law school graduate can tell you[citation needed].

In any case, we still have the macroeconomic puzzle. There are job openings which cannot be filled with qualified and willing applicants. Besides drafting people and coercing them to be teachers by threat of prison, the only solution is to make the job a better deal, This can be done by paying more money, making the job nicer, or deciding we'll accept lower performance from someone willing to show up for work.

Another macroeconomic puzzle to consider is, why would a person who is not a teacher, but qualified by education and experience to be a competent teacher, want to be a teacher, when teachers have rejected the job with its current conditions.
 

Why Florida's plan to recruit veterans as teachers is troubling


Florida is struggling to hire teachers, and Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis’ regressive influence on the state’s education system — affecting signage on the wall to class curriculums — is arguably a prime factor.

But the DeSantis administration declines to look inward to assess why so many teachers have left their jobs. Instead, it's pushing a dubious quick fix: hiring military veterans without degrees to teach.

Florida’s Education Department announced last week that it will give veterans five-year temporary certificates while they finish their bachelor's degrees. Vets must pass subject tests and have completed 60 college credits (around two years of a four-year degree program) to obtain the certificate.

On the one hand, if someone is really qualified to teach and merely hasn't obtained a degree--can prove it by passing qualification testing, while there is a shortage, then I think it makes sense economically and for sake of efficiency to allow those people to temporarily teach until eventually getting through all the bureaucratic red tape. That ought to apply to all qualified persons in a shortage crisis, not merely veterans.

On the other hand, politically, not economically, there is a skew with the military subgroup of people in comparison to non-military that would add a nationalistic, pro-war, reich-wing contingent to the pool of educators?
This is a basic macroeconomics puzzle.

If a person needs workers for a specific job and is unable to fill all the open positions, there are three immediate remedies.

Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards.

It seems DeSantis has jumped to option three. The first question to be asked about any proposed solution to a problem is, will it work.

It's been a long standing policy in civil service to give preference to veterans. This is usually done by giving a handicap to any non-veteran who takes a civil service exam. In other words, lower the standards for veterans, which means lower the overall standards. The highest scoring applicant may not get the job, if a veteran also took the exam.

Getting back to the "will it work?" question, how large is the pool of possible teacher candidates and how many of them are interested in becoming teachers? Is the starting pay enough to entice them to become teachers? What about working conditions? That brings us back to the three initial remedies. Lowering standards only works when there are unqualified workers who are unable to take the job under the current standards. Does DeSantis have to create a two tiered pay system, where veterans start at higher pay than a person with a four year degree in education? Improving working conditions doesn't seem to be on the table.

This maybe a pointless exercise, or just a political stunt. Where have we heard that lately?

I think your post is pretty decent, but it's really the last line in the post that provides a hint to the greater context of the alleged "macroeconomics puzzle." It's the context of how pointless the exercise is or how stunt-like it is that needs expansion and analysis. It is worth it to respond to the post and provide some additional context while doing so.

For example, "[t]his is a basic macroeconomics puzzle." Well, it would be. IF there were a macroeconomic accident that occurred and DeSantis was interested in solving that problem in good faith.

Regarding the former condition mentioned above--"a macroeconomic accident," -- to what extent is this unforeseen and due to conditions outside the control of politics? While the pandemic has been a factor... Florida has been 47th in teacher pay among the states. The Republican Party in support of oligarchs tries consistently to reduce taxes and in a system where voters have a little bit of a say in electoral outcomes creates propaganda and throws bones to the working poor in the form of across-the-board tax breaks as a way to obfuscate and mitigate the benefits of social spending in government. And the latter "good faith" -- it has been conservatives who consistently argue they are fighting for senior citizens who have largely fixed incomes when those politicians endorse teacher (or support staff) layoffs or refuse to pick up new employees after normal attrition--both of which have happened a lot in Florida. This out of one side of their conservative mouths, claiming interest in seniors, but then out of the other, when updating for improvement the way cost-of-living is set for Social Security those conservatives are against it. The idea of benefit to society by conservatives is quite corrupted by their allegiance and prioritization of the ruling class.

It is in this context that the Republican Party creates divisions and propagandizes issues to set one group against another. While they do this with seniors and working poor and recently have been upsetting and radicalizing conservative parents, DeSantis' latest stunt is also there to set the pool of conservative-leaning veterans against the group of liberal-leaning teachers. It is not an accident that the social status of veterans is treated as some kind of sacred thing across party lines. This move is political maneuvering to act as an unassailable leverage against one of the last bastions of organized labor.

Next, I agree in the abstract with your list
Increase the pay
Improve the working conditions
Lower the standards
... and to continue the list, we could also add Bomb#20's "eliminate barriers to entry" but I do note that with Bomb#20's suggestion he surrounds it with implication that the barriers are there to eliminate competition and gives only one concrete example--a licensing fee to cover administrative costs. That licensing fee--$75 per subject, not really a barrier in practice, only theory, and not really the mark of obstructing competition either. Should I add the alternative to cover administrative fees would be general taxation, in other words the dreaded SOCIALISM boogeyman?

As for me, I did already say I'd for sake of discussion and solution, agree with the underlying implication in DeSantis's political move--that there is unnecessary red tape, whether that is barriers to entry or standards that are too high does not matter.

Next point:
The first question to be asked about any proposed solution to a problem is, will it work.

Again, I will point out that your post is good and this is a decent point. But let's put it into context again of a political maneuver. Is considering only a problem and solution outside the political context being too short-sighted? To put another way, what comes next? What is given up politically? Moreover, what is wrong with the amended version of simply allowing the same exemption to decent people besides the sacred veteran class?

It's been a long standing policy in civil service to give preference to veterans. This is usually done by giving a handicap to any non-veteran who takes a civil service exam. In other words, lower the standards for veterans, which means lower the overall standards. The highest scoring applicant may not get the job, if a veteran also took the exam.

I do not completely disagree with this, but I also think there are two factors that ought to guide when such policy is valid. So, I think it ought to be policy especially for the types of jobs that are analogous to Military Occupation Specialties. An Army Medic is analogous to an EMT, for example. Next, when a pool of veterans has given a lot...a lot of sacrifice, like for a recent war....and there are difficulties in hiring them due to their transition back to civilian life. Again, I do not believe we should treat veterans as a sacred social class. On the opposite side of the spectrum of jobs, there seem to likely be jobs where the analogous job from the military to civilian would be inappropriate. Military instructors can be very harsh and physical and that doesn't seem compatible with instruction of children. One of my drill sergeants punched a guy in the stomach while that guy was wearing a protective mask and in a room with gas during training in order to teach him a lesson. I wouldn't want him to teach my kids.

Getting back to the "will it work?" question, how large is the pool of possible teacher candidates and how many of them are interested in becoming teachers? Is the starting pay enough to entice them to become teachers? What about working conditions? That brings us back to the three initial remedies. Lowering standards only works when there are unqualified workers who are unable to take the job under the current standards. Does DeSantis have to create a two tiered pay system, where veterans start at higher pay than a person with a four year degree in education? Improving working conditions doesn't seem to be on the table.

Starting pay is well below national average. Working conditions for teachers has been rough during and even before the pandemic with the extra rules and dealing with irate and brainwashed parents. Imagine having to deal with the crazy lady screaming how masks are sex toys because she was radicalized by Republican propaganda. Right...improving conditions are not on the table. So, why aren't they? Moreover, why are Republican propagandists deliberately making teachers' lives difficult? What is the conservative long-term goal to do to secular, public education?
 
On the other hand, politically, not economically, there is a skew with the military subgroup of people in comparison to non-military that would add a nationalistic, pro-war, reich-wing contingent to the pool of educators?

I agree this is very VERY troubling.
And it is monumentally, achingly stupid to think the pool of non-military people doesn’t hold equal or better partially-qualified people.
And it is even more stupid to let go of the already qulaified teachers because you can’t be bothered to understand their needs, while being simultaneously shortsighted that your new military teachers aren’t going to care about the same things and quit themselves when they find it lacking.

We’ve already seen the terrible result of militarising our police. Our 6-year olds are not equipped for that.
I don't mean to insult the military but military personnel are accustomed to doing what they are told (within certain parameters) and are used to working in harsh, even dangerous conditions. That's what they signed up for, in part. So, I see the appeal to any totalitarian types of simply directing military personnel or those who have recently left the military and are struggling to find civilian jobs (less a problem now) to step in and fill in empty slots. Because military personnel are used to being considered units, and cogs in wheels and indeed are trained so that largely, they are interchangeable. I realize that I am greatly oversimplifying what it is to be in any branch of service and that this applies much more to footsoldiers than more senior personnel. Still, military are used to being sent on assignment to wherever they are deemed to be needed, regardless of their personal preferences. I do not mean this as any insult to any military personnel or any branch of the military. It's just part of the job.

Of course some military personnel are well educated and some are well suited towards teaching, and not just training. I would wager that very few are competent in terms of understanding developmental stages of childhood or various learning styles or methods, etc. I would even guess that many would struggle with classroom discipline. Some, no doubt, would do a fine job because some are well educated, knowledgeable and have the desire and the aptitude and perhaps even training to be decent teachers. In certain ways, this is not much different than allowing any parent to home school their children. Some will do an excellent job because they have the intelligence and the knowledge and the aptitude and temperament to do well with a small group/single student especially when they have total control over the environment, etc. Most would struggle.


Of course this is all so much worse than actually creating a work environment that supports teachers and education of children.
100% of all veterans I have ever met are pretty much completely deranged... and not just those that have PTSD... even the "honorably" discharged are "wingnuts" at best, and "the problem with America" at worst.
It would be far better to give homeless people teaching jobs and then give the veterans homelessness as a job. As is, there are already a large population of homeless people that are vets... and practically no teachers that are vets.
So, vets are better at being homeless than teachers.
 
All of my uncles, my FIL, one BIL( former) and some cousins plus one son and some old friends are all vets. None were/are deranged, although there is at least one alcoholic ( now deceased) and more than one true asshole and, some really good, decent, honorable men, one of whom really wanted to teach but settled for an MBA and one who writes books and is now teaching English ( as I always knew he would) as a second language in his retirement. The one who wanted to teach but did not was one of the best people I’ve ever known.

I don’t think having served in the military makes one unfit to teach. But being a good teacher requires some very specific training to gain the right skills. In addition to sufficient command of whatever subjects they will be teaching. Essential is having the right temperament and a deep desire to teach the students you have, not some theoretical student.

I’m not opposed to having vets in the classroom. I’m opposed to having people who are not qualified in the classroom.

I’m even more opposed to not adequately compensating teachers, treating teachers as day care providers, not adequately funding or otherwise supporting education, teachers and students and of course, using education ( any aspect, any level) as a political point/stunt.
 
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