• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

Learner said:
This is what the concerns are about with modern bibles.

KJV
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

NIVR
The Lord answers (notice this addition here, 'the Lord answers' foot note, this is mis-guiding, a corruption)
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

These verses below, as you can see, from the KJV, expressively flows as one individual, indicating this is NOT God:

Isaiah 63: 3-7

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

7 I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his loving kindnesses.
Click to expand...
One individual? Verses 3 to 6 talks about what God has done and repeatedly says "I". Verse 7 is different and talks about "the Lord" as if it isn't spoken by the Lord.
NOT God? So then has Isaiah done those things that verses 3 to 6 talk about?
Also in verses 1 and 2 it asks a question and then answers it... and you're claiming that God isn't saying any of that?
 
excreationist said:
Learner said:
This is what the concerns are about with modern bibles.

KJV
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

NIVR
The Lord answers (notice this addition here, 'the Lord answers' foot note, this is mis-guiding, a corruption)
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

These verses below, as you can see, from the KJV, expressively flows as one individual, indicating this is NOT God:

Isaiah 63: 3-7

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

7 I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his loving kindnesses.
Click to expand...
One individual? Verses 3 to 6 talks about what God has done and repeatedly says "I". Verse 7 is different and talks about "the Lord" as if it isn't spoken by the Lord.
NOT God? So then has Isaiah done those things that verses 3 to 6 talk about?
Also in verses 1 and 2 it asks a question and then answers it... and you're claiming that God isn't saying any of that?
Click to expand...
There is no separation between verses 6 and 7 in the KJV which is written in a continuous flow, but there is with the NIRV verses between 6 & 7, an addition to the texts which separates them: 'Isaiah praises the Lord and praises him' followed by verse 7. I can see what issues may be with these verses 3-7, which does indicate a quite mighty individual. Here I'd say would need 'another witness', to help clarify, because the KJV is translated from the masoretic texts, who aren't, as some Christians see them, so textually favouring Christianity.

Witness two:

Esias 63 Septuagint​


1 Who is this that is come from Edom, red garments from Bosor? thus fair in his apparel, with mighty strength? I speak of righteousness and saving judgment.
2 Wherefore are thy garments red, and thy raiment as from a trodden winepress?
3 I am full of trodden , and of the nations there is not a man with me; and I trampled them in my fury, and dashed them to pieces as earth, and brought down their blood to the earth.
4 For the day of recompence has come upon them, and the year of redemption is at hand.
5 And I looked, and there was no helper; and I observed, and none upheld: therefore my arm delivered them, and mine anger drew nigh.
6 And I trampled them in mine anger, and brought down their blood to the earth.
7 I remembered the mercy of the Lord, the praises of the Lord in all things wherein he recompenses us. The Lord is a good judge to the house of Israel; he deals with us according to his mercy, and according to the abundance of his righteousness.

It could be possible you may be right, however, again no separation between verses.
 
Learner said:
There is no separation between verses 6 and 7 in the KJV which is written in a continuous flow, but there is with the NIRV verses between 6 & 7, an addition to the texts which separates them: 'Isaiah praises the Lord and praises him' followed by verse 7. I can see what issues may be with these verses 3-7, which indicates a quite mighty individual. Here I'd say would need 'another witness', so to speak, to help clarify, because the KJV is translated from the masoretic texts, who aren't, as some Christians see them, so textually favouring Christianity.
Click to expand...
If verses 3-6 aren't God then who is doing those things? Who is that "mighty individual"? Verses 3-6 use "I" a lot when talking about those things. Verse 7 says "I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord" while the earlier verses never talk about the Lord in this way. In verse 7 all the person does is "I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord". i.e. that sounds like what a regular person could do (like Isaiah) rather than the epic things that the previous verses talk about. It seems you're going against what the NIV says just so that you won't have to agree that God can get very angry.
 
excreationist said:
Learner said:
There is no separation between verses 6 and 7 in the KJV which is written in a continuous flow, but there is with the NIRV verses between 6 & 7, an addition to the texts which separates them: 'Isaiah praises the Lord and praises him' followed by verse 7. I can see what issues may be with these verses 3-7, which indicates a quite mighty individual. Here I'd say would need 'another witness', so to speak, to help clarify, because the KJV is translated from the masoretic texts, who aren't, as some Christians see them, so textually favouring Christianity.
Click to expand...
If verses 3-6 aren't God then who is doing those things? Who is that "mighty individual"? Verses 3-6 use "I" a lot when talking about those things. Verse 7 says "I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord" while the earlier verses never talk about the Lord in this way. In verse 7 all the person does is "I will mention the loving kindnesses of the Lord". i.e. that sounds like what a regular person could do (like Isaiah) rather than the epic things that the previous verses talk about. It seems you're going against what the NIV says just so that you won't have to agree that God can get very angry.
Click to expand...
I must agree, there are different perspectives and speakers in Isaiah, depending on the sections, I can't remember the discussion I was in, its way past my bedtime, but thanks for the discussion (and giving me the motive here, catching up on the reading and to continue).

 
excreationist said:
southernhybrid said:
You know.....like God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son and then he said. "Just kidding. I just wanted to see if you'd do it."
Click to expand...
Actually it was an angel who stopped Abraham....
Click to expand...
Well thanks, but the angel was sent by God, so the point is still the same. The story I was told as a child is that God was testing Abraham's dedication to him. To me, that god is a really sick puppy. But, then again, it's an ancient myth that was probably used to control people. To me, it's sad that people still take so much of these old myths literally.

Another sick one is the story of Job. It was supposedly Satan who put God up to taking away Job's wealth and family in order to see if Job would be faithful to God. It's so obvious that these stories are myths, in some ways similar to other ancient myths found in other versions of mythology. But, Joseph Campbell did a pretty good job of explaining the power of myths. I guess it's just human nature to seek them out and believe them. It just seems like we could use some new better ones these days. We do have all kinds of new conspiracy theories. Maybe those are the modern myths.
 
@southernhybrid
BTW Judges 11 is similar to the Isaac story... except God doesn't stop the human sacrifice....
30 Jephthah made a promise to the Lord. Jephthah said, “Hand the Ammonites over to me. 31 If you do, here’s what I’ll do when I come back from winning the battle. Anything that comes out the door of my house to meet me will belong to the Lord. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight against the Ammonites. The Lord handed them over to him. 33 Jephthah destroyed 20 towns between Aroer and the area of Minnith. He destroyed them all the way to Abel Keramim. So Israel brought Ammon under their control.

34 Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah. And guess who came out to meet him. It was his daughter! She was dancing to the beat of tambourines. She was his only child. He didn’t have any other sons or daughters. 35 When Jephthah saw her, he was so upset that he tore his clothes. He cried out, “Oh no, my daughter! You have filled me with trouble and sorrow. I’ve made a promise to the Lord. And I can’t break it.”

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. So do to me just what you promised to do. The Ammonites were your enemies. And the Lord has paid them back for what they did to you. 37 But please do one thing for me,” she continued. “Give me two months to wander around in the hills. Let me weep there with my friends. I want to do that because I’ll never get married.”

38 “You may go,” he said. He let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills. They were filled with sadness because she would never get married. 39 After the two months were over, she returned to her father. He did to her just what he had promised to do. And she was a virgin.
Click to expand...
 
bilby said:
excreationist said:
southernhybrid said:
You know.....like God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son and then he said. "Just kidding. I just wanted to see if you'd do it."
Click to expand...
Actually it was an angel who stopped Abraham....
Click to expand...
And Henry VIII didn't kill Anne Boleyn, it was an executioner who killed her....
Click to expand...
I thought it was weird that God was talking to Abraham the whole time then it was an angel from heaven whose first words were to stop Abraham.
 
excreationist said:
bilby said:
excreationist said:
southernhybrid said:
You know.....like God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son and then he said. "Just kidding. I just wanted to see if you'd do it."
Click to expand...
Actually it was an angel who stopped Abraham....
Click to expand...
And Henry VIII didn't kill Anne Boleyn, it was an executioner who killed her....
Click to expand...
I thought it was weird that God was talking to Abraham the whole time then it was an angel from heaven whose first words were to stop Abraham.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting that the angel was more compassionate that God, since it wasn't God who stopped the murder, but the angel? :)
 
Well if Lucifer rebelled against Jehovah...

I think it's fairly common for "angel" and "The LORD" to be interchangeable in the Pentateuch. I can think of stories involving Abram and Balaam off the top of my head.
 
Speaking of Balaam, the story of him and his poor donkey is another puzzling morality tale. Balaam obeys God's orders to the letter, then gets threatened with death for it, but not before God watches Balaam beat his donkey three times out of ignorance before stepping in. Utterly bizarre.
 
southernhybrid said:
excreationist said:
bilby said:
excreationist said:
southernhybrid said:
You know.....like God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son and then he said. "Just kidding. I just wanted to see if you'd do it."
Click to expand...
Actually it was an angel who stopped Abraham....
Click to expand...
And Henry VIII didn't kill Anne Boleyn, it was an executioner who killed her....
Click to expand...
I thought it was weird that God was talking to Abraham the whole time then it was an angel from heaven whose first words were to stop Abraham.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting that the angel was more compassionate that God, since it wasn't God who stopped the murder, but the angel? :)
Click to expand...
Just a little mention. There was NO murder planned.
 
bilby said:
Learner said:
Elixir said:
Learner said:
I am happy to use any of them.
Click to expand...
That says volumes.
Volume 1:1
The Bible is a magic book.
No reasoning.
Click to expand...
You must be mixed up with books similar to Harry Potter. The bible is against magic which describes the conjurors as magicians, witches charlatans, fortune tellers, sorcerers; people who evoke demons or spirits, that do bewildering things etc. & etc..
Click to expand...
The Bible is against magic in exactly the same way that drug barons are against dealing in drugs. They're absolutely determined that any competitor should not be tolerated.
Click to expand...
No.. magic is specifically a poor illusionary imitation of what God can do. It's well highlighted and defined in the bible. The acts of magic is emphasised by being performed by tricksters and illusionists.

bilby said:
But it's all magic. What else do you call creating stuff by simply saying a few words? What else is it when a person produces enough food for everyone from a handful of loaves and fishes? What else is a miracle, other than magic being done by someone you celebrate, rather than denigrate?
Click to expand...
The acts of magic don't do miracles like that, only God/Jesus can directly (prophets can be given certain power). This is how the bible gives the differentiation in context.. no prophet says or casts spells, or conjures up spirits, as you do with magic, it's not the same, even for example, the bible is against chanting repeatedly, which can be a form of spell casting or spirit conjuring.

bilby said:
The God character in the Old Testament very obviously believes that other gods exist, and that magic other than his own is real. And he's mightily pissed off about these things.

There's literally zero difference between a miracle and an act of magic, other than whether it's done by your folks or theirs.
Click to expand...
Both miracles and magic are dazzling to the observer even rendering them speechless, but they not the same. God wouldn't need to cast spells (as the creator concept goes), since He's the very 'one' who provides the energy source for things to exist in the first place. Basically, magicians , sorcerer's, demons and witches would be quite limited, trying to manipulate the energy-matter, which they never provided, let alone. not create. Of course, they would produce enticing wonders, that look miraculous, like the technology could today, but they wouldn't be real miracles, as a God being 'the power source of creation' could.
 
Last edited:
Elixir said:
Learner said:
magic is specifically a poor illusionary imitation of what God can do
Click to expand...
Gee, and I was going to point out how gods are cheap imitations of magic.
Click to expand...
Good well now you know.

Magic was 'really' all about knowing how to apply certain acquired 'knowledge,' from an understanding of the physical world or nature...you can be tricked to believe a magician is more than human, so to speak.

You'll be shocked that I am suggesting... that all it ever really was, was the sciences. Knowledge which was taboo...
Spirits or god's were begged for the know how..for a price, alchemists ran wild with partial knowledge. Knowledge was a concern, for the Heavenly Hosts; should man know of these things prematurely!

Magic as we see today, fantastical, dark & mysterious, an image concept that excelled, more so from the middle ages perspective, which can be quite romantic and adventurous as well, noticeable today brings about never-ending creation of dream like fantasies & stories that dazzles the audience, combined and including technology, which can do amazing things.

But it was God who created the physics.
 
Last edited:
Learner said:
Good well now you know.
Click to expand...
I already knew.
I was introduced to a handful of religions quite early in life, learner.
I learned that they all professed to offer divine acces to peace and love, and are willing to kill each other to prove it.
I learned that they are all supported by cheap trickery in fancy robes. They force their rubes to swallow miracles and impossible things, in order to hold their minds hostage.
And I learned that religions scoff at the better-practiced hands of honest magicians, who actually produce what religions only promise, and demonstrate the ease with which those who are eager for a sky-daddy or other shortcuts around reality, can be sold an impossible bill of goods

Learner said:
But it was God who created the physics.
Click to expand...

Or not. What you have there is a barenaked assertion. No gods are in evidence, so if one did “create the physics”, the reasonable question is “SO WHAT?” The function of a god whose presence is the same in all regards as it’s absence, is simply to make you feel good. If it does that, you’re welcome to it. But if it doesn’t do that for others, proselytizing is stupid and harmful, generating hate and wars.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom