Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

Being mauled by a bear doesn't give one a good chance of survival. Plus the point is that it is God who responds with violence.

DBT said:

Being mauled by a bear doesn't give one a good chance of survival. Plus the point is that it is God who responds with violence.

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I wonder in the story if 42 boys all said "Get out of here, baldy!" BTW 2 Kings 2:24 says 42 in the group were mauled which implies some of them weren't.

Change your avatar, I implore you. The sight of an unattractive, caricaturised figure is not pleasing to my eyes. I do not like ugly people.

excreationist said:

DBT said:

Being mauled by a bear doesn't give one a good chance of survival. Plus the point is that it is God who responds with violence.

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I wonder in the story if 42 boys all said "Get out of here, baldy!" BTW 2 Kings 2:24 says 42 in the group were mauled which implies some of them weren't.

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A scene from the event. The noise of 42 iWatches must have been spooky.

Trebaxian Vir said:

Change your avatar, I implore you. The sight of an unattractive, caricaturised figure is not pleasing to my eyes. I do not like ugly people.

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This is just too funny.

bilby said:

excreationist said:

@bilby
Here's another version of the Answers in Genesis illustration:

Maturing the Message

The creation message has matured over the past three decades, as the discernment and understanding of creationist leaders has matured.

answersingenesis.org

It is about the foundations of “Man Decides Truth” vs “God’s Word Is Truth”.

Your reasoning is a form of "man decides truth". Though I don't really believe in the God of the Bible so I'd also be guilty of "man decides truth".

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It's a false dichotomy. Maybe man decides truth, maybe not. But it's a demonstrable truth that we don't have God's Word (or, if we do, it's so deeply buried in bullshit that it's unrecoverable), so if God's Word ever was truth, we are unable to access it - unless we accept the decisions of men about which stuff is God's Word, and which ain't.

Both sides of the dichotomy depend on man deciding truth. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether we want to trust our personal judgment, or submit to the judgment of other men (whose track record is abysmal).

I can't get guidance from God, and I won't accept that Ken Ham is a suitable substitute. Or the Pope, or the Chief Imam, or the Dalai Lama, or the King of England, or, well, anyone else in charge of a religious group.

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Gosh, I remember seeing that exact image before in an apologetics camp. There's an entire animated cartoon segment in fact.

It was as my own faith was starting to give way.

It strikes me as fairly absurd because if Christianity is the truth, if creation was the truth, nothing could shake that foundation.

In all, the whole thing was unconvincing except to show how disorganized christians are.

The problem here is that it is not really a situation of "man deciding truth". People believing a book written by people about a person creating people is "man deciding truth".

Looking at the world around you, developing an eclectic understanding of systems in general, and applying that understanding to always strive for a more accurate understanding of how the world came about from it's beginnings is it man deciding truth, it's deciding man doesn't decide truth and accepting that it can only be derived from observation and interaction with the phenomena of reality itself.

Trebaxian Vir said:

Change your avatar, I implore you. The sight of an unattractive, caricaturised figure is not pleasing to my eyes. I do not like ugly people.

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I used to look almost the same in high school though my hair was wavy rather than curly. Ugly people are a natural part of life.

excreationist said:

Trebaxian Vir said:

Change your avatar, I implore you. The sight of an unattractive, caricaturised figure is not pleasing to my eyes. I do not like ugly people.

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I used to look almost the same in high school though my hair was wavy rather than curly. Ugly people are a natural part of life.

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You aren't ugly. You're normal.

Change the hair and style of glasses and that could be me in 1980.
Tom

TomC said:

You aren't ugly. You're normal.

Change the hair and style of glasses and that could be me in 1980.
Tom

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But were you a mouth breather?

Jarhyn said:

Gosh, I remember seeing that exact image before in an apologetics camp. There's an entire animated cartoon segment in fact.

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It's from Ken Ham's "The Genesis Solution" (37:52)

excreationist said:

TomC said:

You aren't ugly. You're normal.

Change the hair and style of glasses and that could be me in 1980.
Tom

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But were you a mouth breather?

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Arguably...

Then again, I also resemble that remark. Sometimes.

as I have said many times before and will say again.

Believing in dude dying, waking up, and flying away means I have utter control of one.

but ...

Believing that we are part of a larger more complex system than humans is more reliable than the reverse. So much so that its on the same level of a deity. Special pleading is the only the reverse has any legs at all.

Acts 5 : Ananias and Sapphira story...The apostle Peter berates Ananias for “lying not to humans but to the Holy Spirit” (5:3), and Sapphira for “putting the Spirit of the Lord to the test” (5:9). Upon hearing the apostle’s rebuke, Ananias and Sapphira each die in turn, suddenly and on the spot...WTF!

Here's a little something from Paul (Romans 12:20) quoting Proverbs 25: 21-22

21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.

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At first glance, this is a rather terrible metaphor. Dumping red-hot coals on someone's head is a criminal act, and could cause serious harm, bodily injury, even death. Yes, the idea is that showing kindness to someone who has harmed us might--might--shame them into amending their behavior. Then again, they might see us as easy marks and continue to mistreat us.

But the metaphor is not good. It would be no different than a modern-day Christian moralist saying, "If someone cuts you off in traffic, smile and wave at them as you let them pass. In doing so, you will shoot them in the chest."

And lest anyone nurse a grudge at showing kindness to an enemy, the passage ends with "And the Lord will reward you." Of course, this erases kindness as an ethical action and turns it into a transactional investment. "I'm only being kind to you because I'm expecting a big reward from God. If not for that, then you can go screw."

By contrast, here's a passage from Marcus Aurelius' Meditations (11.18.5.9a) on the same situation:

Kindness is invincible, but only when it's sincere, with no hypocrisy or faking. For what can even the most malicious person do if you keep showing kindness, and, if given the chance, you gently point out where they went wrong--right as they are trying to harm you?

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"While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day...And the Lord said to Moses, 'The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.' And all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses." - Numbers 15:32


''Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.'' - Exodus 31:15

Oh my, such palava. So little 'meaning' but much assertion from a mere verse, as we see in the above previous posts. A little light shone on a lot more verse could give you a better picture, giving the theme, that's throughout the bible, but then... I don't think that's really the aim here.

Proverbs 24:17
17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice

Luke 6:27-28:
But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Luke 23:34:
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do

Luke 6:27-28:
But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you

1 Peter 3:9:
Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing

Matthew 5:44-45
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

* Now here are the connecting verses in full where Paul is quoting proverbs 25:21-22:

Romans 12:17-21
17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Paul was once the enemy, you know.

@Learner:
The existence of moral-seeming verses in the Bible doesn't mean that the immoral-seeming verses can be ignored.... especially if they're from different books.... I mean in Numbers and Exodus it is God commanding that people who work on the sabbath be put to death....

Who's says any verse should be ignored? If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one. If one wants to convince people into becoming new converts...why leave verses that seem conflicting in the bible, in the first place? It would be better to simply omit them.

Learner said:

Who's says any verse should be ignored? If a verse seems contradictory against many other verses, that suggests the opposite -then it must mean the issue is a contextual one. If one wants to convince people into becoming new converts...why leave verses that seem conflicting in the bible, in the first place? It would be better to simply omit them.

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On the topic of verses that seem contradictory I think extreme examples are in:
About Number 15 - it seems like God is harsh - though I've heard it said that it's about the law and the old covenant or something.

Hi ex, I'm still interested with discussing the genealogy. (Been busy with this coronation, helping our local community event... tired me out mentally and physically).
Just need do a bit of my own research.

About Number 15 - it seems like God is harsh - though I've heard it said that it's about the law and the old covenant or something

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I would ask.. which out of all the ancient nations were harshest? Was God of the bibles laws that bad in comparison to the nations who had different traditions, blood sacrifices etc. of the time?