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If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

aupmanyav said:
Shadowy Man said:
If the woman dies during childbirth is the father held legally responsible for the baby?
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Why would the husband be responsible? What wrong did he do?
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He helped create the baby.

So, you’re saying that if an unmarried couple has consensual sex and becomes pregnant that the mother should not be able to abort the child but the father has no legal responsibility and can walk away whenever he wants?

Thats a vastly asymmetric situation that means that the abortion laws, since you admit they are not about murdering babies, should be to punish women, and women only, for their sexuality.

You said the couple should be held responsible to the consequences of their sex acts, but you are really saying just the woman, not the man.

aupmanyav said:
In many cases it is not easy to provide proper handling of childbirth in villages and there are some 600,000 villages in India. There could be a case that the man deliberately did not provide medical help to the woman, that would sure be punishable.
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For whatever reason if the woman dies in childbirth, who is responsible for the baby, assuming it survives? Not the father, according to you?

Edited to add: oops, I see now you switched to using the word “husband” in your response to me. I’m assuming that in that case the father is legally responsible for the child because he was wedded to the mother, yes?
 
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
What are the legal consequences for the male under that law?
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Termination of pregnancy other than Medical termination permitted by the law cannot be done. The punishment is up to three year in jail for the woman/husband which may be accompanied by a fine. The punishment to those who performed it is much severe, up to 10 years in jail.

I find there is a twist in the judgement. in 2022, the Supreme Court said: "A woman may become pregnant as a result of non-consensual sex with her husband". She also is eligible for termination of pregnancy.
www.indiatoday.in

All women, married or unmarried, have right to safe abortion under law, says SC

The Supreme Court on Thursday said the marital status of a woman can't be grounds to deprive her right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. The court said that all women are entitled to safe and legal abortion.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in
www.clearias.com

Abortion Laws in India - ClearIAS

The Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act and related Rules regarding abortion were clarified by the Supreme Court recently.
www.clearias.com www.clearias.com
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That didn't even begin to answer my question. All you stated was legal issues if there is an abortion.

My question was what consequences from irresponsible sex leading pregnancy is a male liable for under Indian Law?
 
Shadowy Man said:
He helped create the baby.

So, you’re saying that if an unmarried couple has consensual sex and becomes pregnant that the mother should not be able to abort the child but the father has no legal responsibility and can walk away whenever he wants?

Thats a vastly asymmetric situation that means that the abortion laws, since you admit they are not about murdering babies, should be to punish women, and women only, for their sexuality.

You said the couple should be held responsible to the consequences of their sex acts, but you are really saying just the woman, not the man.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about 'could' or 'should'. I am talking about the law as it stands today. The father has no responsibility if a child is born out of consensual sex where father had not agreed to any such responsibility. The woman was an adult and should have known the consequences. Yes, abortion in this case will be illegal. The woman should have used contraceptives. If she did and the contraceptives failed, then she would be eligible for abortion. That is why I said that there is a twist in the law. The decision depends on the courts.

Shadowy Man said:
For whatever reason if the woman dies in childbirth, who is responsible for the baby, assuming it survives? Not the father, according to you?

Edited to add: oops, I see now you switched to using the word “husband” in your response to me. I’m assuming that in that case the father is legally responsible for the child because he was wedded to the mother, yes?
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That is correct. In case of married people, the responsibility of the child will rest with the father. So many children are raised by paternal or maternal families. The child is eligible for inheritance from paternal and maternal families. The courts can ask the father to pay for maintenance of the child. The father cannot just wash his hands of the responsibility.
 
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Jimmy Higgins said:
My question was what consequences from irresponsible sex leading pregnancy is a male liable for under Indian Law?
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Did he indulge in sex with any such obligation? If not, then he has no responsibility. The child cannot ask for inheritance, because it was not born in marriage. In a famous case (N.D. Tiwari, a former Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, the largest state in India, and India's foreign minister when Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister), the legal opinion was that the child was not eligible enough for inheritance. However, they never asked for inheritance, they only wanted to establish the paternity for Allah knows what reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._D._Tiwari#Paternity_suit
A crucial pre-condition for a child born from a live-in rela ..
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Rohit may not be legitimate enough to inherit ND Tiwari’s property | India News - Times of India

India News: Tiwari may have accepted Rohit Shekhar as his biological son, but according to experts, the “confession” does not necessarily mean that Rohit now has
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com
 
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aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
My question was what consequences from irresponsible sex leading pregnancy is a male liable for under Indian Law?
Click to expand...
Did he indulge in sex with any such obligation? If not, then he has no responsibility. The child cannot ask for inheritance, because it was not born in marriage. In a famous case (N.D. Tiwari, a former Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, the largest state in India, and India's foreign minister when Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister), the legal opinion was that the child was not eligible enough for inheritance. However, they never asked for inheritance, they only wanted to establish the paternity for Allah knows what reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._D._Tiwari#Paternity_suit
A crucial pre-condition for a child born from a live-in rela ..
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Rohit may not be legitimate enough to inherit ND Tiwari’s property | India News - Times of India

India News: Tiwari may have accepted Rohit Shekhar as his biological son, but according to experts, the “confession” does not necessarily mean that Rohit now has
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com
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So only the female suffers consequences. What a load!
 
aupmanyav said:
Shadowy Man said:
He helped create the baby.

So, you’re saying that if an unmarried couple has consensual sex and becomes pregnant that the mother should not be able to abort the child but the father has no legal responsibility and can walk away whenever he wants?

Thats a vastly asymmetric situation that means that the abortion laws, since you admit they are not about murdering babies, should be to punish women, and women only, for their sexuality.

You said the couple should be held responsible to the consequences of their sex acts, but you are really saying just the woman, not the man.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about 'could' or 'should'. I am talking about the law as it stands today. The father has no responsibility if a child is born out of consensual sex where father had not agreed to any such responsibility. The woman was an adult and should have known the consequences.
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And assuming the man was an adult he should have known the consequences too. Why should only the woman bear the consequences?


aupmanyav said:
Yes, abortion in this case will be illegal. The woman should have used contraceptives. If she did and the contraceptives failed, then she would be eligible for abortion. That is why I said that there is a twist in the law. The decision depends on the courts.
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Sometimes men use contraceptives and their contraceptives fail. Would the woman be eligible for abortion in that case?

 
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
So only the female suffers consequences. What a load!
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How did you come to that conclusion?
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I’m guessing from quotes like this:

“The father has no responsibility if a child is born out of consensual sex where father had not agreed to any such responsibility. The woman was an adult and should have known the consequences.”
 
Shadowy Man said:
And assuming the man was an adult he should have known the consequences too. Why should only the woman bear the consequences?
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Did he make any such promise before indulging in sex? The woman (Ujjwala) had a son and was living separated from her husband. Did not she know what the result of an unprotected sex could be? Tiwari was 52 year old and she was 22. They did what they wanted, it was not a rape. If any one was aggrieved, then it was Tiwari's wife. Only she could have made a complaint as per Indian law. Probably she did not know. Or she knew but overlooked it.

But as a post-script, Tiwari did marry Ujjwala in 2015, 2 years after the paternity case was decided. At that time, his wife had died, he was 88 years of age and Ujjwala was some 65 years old (I have not calculated their actual ages, the information is incomplete). Tiwari died in 2018. His son too died the same year due to unfortunate circumstances. He did try to enter politics but did not succeed.
 
Shadowy Man said: "Sometimes men use contraceptives and their contraceptives fail. Would the woman be eligible for abortion in that case?"

Aup.: Yes. According to the comment of the Supreme Court, she is eligible for abortion. It is legal.
Shadowy Man said:
I’m guessing from quotes like this:

“The father has no responsibility if a child is born out of consensual sex where the father had not agreed to any such responsibility. The woman was an adult and should have known the consequences.”
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Yeah, it does not accrue the responsibility of the child to the father. He already had a family and the woman knew it. She also knew that a second marriage is punishable under Indian laws (it is presently permissible only for Muslims although the laws are going to change). It only shows the foolishness of the married adult woman; or her choice, to have a child fathered by someone other than her husband..
 
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aupmanyav said:
Shadowy Man said:
And assuming the man was an adult he should have known the consequences too. Why should only the woman bear the consequences?
Click to expand...
Did he make any such promise before indulging in sex? The woman (Ujjwala) had a son and was living separated from her husband. Did not she know what the result of an unprotected sex could be? Tiwari was 52 year old and she was 22. They did what they wanted, it was not a rape. If any one was aggrieved, then it was Tiwari's wife. Only she could have made a complaint as per Indian law. Probably she did not know. Or she knew but overlooked it.

But as a post-script, Tiwari did marry Ujjwala in 2015, 2 years after the paternity case was decided. At that time, his wife had died, he was 88 years of age and Ujjwala was some 65 years old (I have not calculated their actual ages, the information is incomplete). Tiwari died in 2018. His son too died the same year due to unfortunate circumstances. He did try to enter politics but did not succeed.
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I was speaking generally not to whatever specific case you are bringing up.

It seems the original post to which I began to respond was not about a specific case so I don’t know why you are limiting your comment here to one specific case.

I am thinking about a man and a woman neither of which are married to each other or to others who have sex. Maybe this never happens in India. In that case I apologize for bringing it up.
 
aupmanyav said:
Shadowy Man said:
I’m guessing from quotes like this:

“The father has no responsibility if a child is born out of consensual sex where the father had not agreed to any such responsibility. The woman was an adult and should have known the consequences.”
Click to expand...
Yeah, it does not accrue the responsibility of the child to the father. He already had a family and the woman knew it. She also knew that a second marriage is punishable under Indian laws (it is presently permissible only for Muslims although the laws are going to change). It only shows the foolishness of the married adult woman; or her choice, to have a child fathered by someone other than her husband..
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So the woman bears the only responsibility of having the irresponsible sex... again. Almost like the male was a victim.
 
Shadowy Man said:
Shadowy Man said:
aupmanyav said:
bilby said:
... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.
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Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.
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Also, if it’s about making sure that couples are responsible about careless sex, do the laws in India demand that the father stay with the woman if she gets pregnant and has the baby? Is he forced to pay child support if he doesn’t? Are both parents held to account or just the woman?
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If the woman dies during childbirth is the father held legally responsible for the baby?
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More importantly: Is the father held responsible for the death of the mother?
 
Shadowy Man said:
I am thinking about a man and a woman neither of which are married to each other or to others who have sex. Maybe this never happens in India. In that case I apologize for bringing it up.
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It does happen in India. It happened in ancient history too when King Dushyant had sex with Shakuntala, The result was the future kind Bharat, after whom India is named as Bhārat. King Dushyant promised marriage and did marry Shakuntala later. It is supposed to be the first love-marriage in Puranas (Gandharva - Vivah, the couple making the decision without parent's permission).

There also if there was no such understanding/promise, then the man would not be responsible for the child. If they decide to marry, then there is no problem. Woman in this case does not have the right to abort. No reason. Why did she do it? She should have been wiser.
 
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