$1000 fine to sleep on the streets of Las Vegas

[Jimmy Higgins]

So my question is, is there infrastructure to house these people so they aren't sleeping in public right-of-way? If so, this could be a way to give the police power to pick these people up and drop them off at shelters. Any attempt to actually collect $1,000 or 6 months of jail time in itself would be grossfully unconstitutional in my mind. I'm willing to bet breaking into someone's home and sleeping on their couch would results in a lesser sentence.

Plus, many if not most homeless folks aren't mentally ill. They just can't afford housing, especially if they live in a city where housing is extremely expensive. Some homeless people actually hold down full time jobs, shower in public restrooms etc. But it's not easy to work and be homeless.

The lack of compassion and understanding coming from people posting on this thread is rather sad.

And the lack of compassion from the Democratic liberal run cities too.

In America, Americans think it is only fair if their own home is the only one that raises in value.

If they wanted to, these local governments could and would make sure home prices in these area's remained stable.

What does this have to do with homeless people that suffer from undiagnosed or untreated mental illness?

 

[laughing dog]

Then maybe that should be addressed?

The problem is we don't have any good solution. Mental health treatment is generally unpleasant and they avoid it.

WHy would anyone think that the mentally ill are competent to make rational choices?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Well now, this is a bit messed up.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/07/us/las-vegas-ban-homeless-camping/index.html



...



Its pay $1,000 fine or spend 6 months in jail.... um the homeless won't be able to pay... so they will crowd the jails. Is that what is really needed? And won't that be more expensive than building actually decent public housing and mental health facilities for those who need it?

In Las Vegas, a 2016 survey of over 400 homeless people found that 84% slept most often outside of a shelter, including 52% who slept on the street, sidewalk or doorway. In addition, 55% of people had not used any shelter services in the past year, and of those, 31% said it was because of bed bugs and 18% said it was because of dirty conditions.

If its preferable to sleep in a doorway than in their homeless shelters, methkinks they need some better shelters.

You are discussing the proximal cause of homeless not being in shelters but you've only scratched the surface of a symptom of a symptom. Why do they have bed bugs? Lack of care of persons and beds. Why? Lack of money. Why is there lack of money? Can the city actually afford it but the money is going elsewhere such as casino projects to bring in "revenue" and to "improve local economies?"

There is probably overlap in your 31% and 18% stats. So you're only talking maybe 1 in 3 homeless people. What about the other 2 in 3? Could there simply just not be enough space? Or are these homeless making irrational decisions because of mental illness or addiction?

What causes homelessness? Mental illness, addiction, poverty, lack of affordable housing, loss of a job. What policies help mitigate these problems?

Mental illness, addiction, poverty, lack of affordable housing are also symptoms of a greater problem. Letting greedy, selfish people be in charge of governments and institutions. Unregulated corporatism creating addictions, for example, or lying us into wars, and then ignoring the impacts on veterans, treating all the victims as if they are the problem while making a hefty profit "succeeding in life." Not to mention making it difficult to get out of the system with added bureaucracy. You need a permanent address for a job and unexpired identification.

Charging homeless $1000 is a theme. The alternative is not great either. 43 states charge you money to be in prison. Did you know that? They give a couple of bucks a day for work, but prisons have commissaries with necessities that cost money. Nevada started charging for meals, health care, and clothing too. By the time a person gets out, they may owe tens of thousands.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Charging homeless $1000 is a theme. The alternative is not great either. 43 states charge you money to be in prison. Did you know that? They give a couple of bucks a day for work, but prisons have commissaries with necessities that cost money. Nevada started charging for meals, health care, and clothing too. By the time a person gets out, they may owe tens of thousands.

But the good news is that they owe that money to private for-profit prison corporations and not to the government. This means that not only are rich people making more money, but the added debt severely limits the opportunities for released prisoners, which increases the chances that they'll return to criminal behaviour and get arrested again and generate additional revenue streams for the prison corporations.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I suppose another question would be whether or not society should tolerate these people being round up against their will and forced into the shelters (for their own good). It would be a fundamental violation of their freedom, but it would keep them from sleeping on the street.

The other question is if the facilities of the shelters improved would those now sleeping on the streets voluntarily go to the shelters?

Other questions may be the stigma attached to living in the shelters as opposed to "making it on their own" or the distrust of the system and government etc.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose another question would be whether or not society should tolerate these people being round up against their will and forced into the shelters (for their own good). It would be a fundamental violation of their freedom, but it would keep them from sleeping on the street.

The other question is if the facilities of the shelters improved would those now sleeping on the streets voluntarily go to the shelters?

Other questions may be the stigma attached to living in the shelters as opposed to "making it on their own" or the distrust of the system and government etc.

You bring up a good point and I think paralysis is our only option. As long as we don't do a thing, there is nothing that can be objected in the inaction.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose another question would be whether or not society should tolerate these people being round up against their will and forced into the shelters (for their own good). It would be a fundamental violation of their freedom, but it would keep them from sleeping on the street.

The other question is if the facilities of the shelters improved would those now sleeping on the streets voluntarily go to the shelters?

Other questions may be the stigma attached to living in the shelters as opposed to "making it on their own" or the distrust of the system and government etc.

Win-win? Get money for someone in the bed and gain a write-off for person not being able to pay up fee. Blessed is the free market.

 

[RVonse]

What does this have to do with homeless people that suffer from undiagnosed or untreated mental illness?

It has nothing to do with mental illness but has everything to do with people living in tents and not real housing. When the price gets lower, everyone including the homeless have better and more opportunities to house themselves.

For example, an impoverished person in Detroit Michigan will probably be better off even during the winter than the same guy in LA.. He still wont have a good house to live in but he will fare better than living in a tent by seeking refuge in an abandoned home.

The price of housing really is a big deal for the homeless.

 

[TSwizzle]

Here in Los Angeles we don't refer to them as "homeless", they are "unhoused". But anyway, the Los Angeles approach to alleviating the "unhoused" crisis was to add a tax (of course!) which was approved by the citizens via a ballot initiative in order to build housing. There has been very little progress in this regard over 18 months and the number of "unhoused" camping on the street has increased. City Hall flusters about facing up to the problem by trying to hide or obfuscate facts. They are doing a bang up shit job. The "unhoused" consist of a wide range of types of people. Most of them are not people simply down on their luck through no fault of their own. They mostly consist of chronically mentally ill people that need institutionalized. Then there are the junkies, alcoholics and meth heads that may or may not get back on the right path if they get treatment which most decline anyway. And then there are the hippy/free spirit fuckwits that think they can just start a commune in any area that takes their fancy. Sometimes it's in wild life preserve areas or the Sepuldeva basin or the Los Angeles river bed behind Angel Stadium in Anaheim or a public park or parking lot. This cannot and must not be allowed to continue. San Diego and Los Angeles have had outbreaks of serious disease because the "unhoused" use the streets as their toilet. I was in downtown San Diego in the summer and the stench of feces and urine was dreadful. The problem needs to be addressed as humanely as possible but these people cannot be allowed to camp on the street, take drugs and shit and piss where they stand.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What does this have to do with homeless people that suffer from undiagnosed or untreated mental illness?

It has nothing to do with mental illness but has everything to do with people living in tents and not real housing. When the price gets lower, everyone including the homeless have better and more opportunities to house themselves.

For example, an impoverished person in Detroit Michigan will probably be better off even during the winter than the same guy in LA.. He still wont have a good house to live in but he will fare better than living in a tent by seeking refuge in an abandoned home.

The price of housing really is a big deal for the homeless.

There are places where houses is nice and cheap. It is called Ohio, among other places.

 

[J842P]

Then maybe that should be addressed?

The problem is we don't have any good solution. Mental health treatment is generally unpleasant and they avoid it.

WHy would anyone think that the mentally ill are competent to make rational choices?

Well that's sort of the problem. We *could* just start rounding people up, but that is not exactly something that isn't fraught with problems either.

It's just fundamentally a hard problem to deal with.

 

[Half-Life]

Just goes to show these people don't try one bit.

Tell me that you don't actually, seriously, think of yourself as a Christian.

God helps those who help themselves. If you refuse to do anything, sit around drinking booze all day, youre not trying. Libraries are free. You can go in and use the free computer to apply for jobs.

And why are they defecating on the streets? McDonald's or any fast food restaurant in the area lets you use the bathroom for free. These people are so lazy (or mentally ill) they can't even be bothered to walk inside a fast food place to use the bathroom. You know how many times I had to go to the bathroom really bad on my drive home and I stop off at a fast food place off the highway and go to the bathroom??? No one ever says one word to me. I don't just pull my car off the road and defecate out my door onto the road.

 

[ZiprHead]

Just goes to show these people don't try one bit.

Tell me that you don't actually, seriously, think of yourself as a Christian.

God helps those who help themselves. If you refuse to do anything, sit around drinking booze all day, youre not trying. Libraries are free. You can go in and use the free computer to apply for jobs.

And why are they defecating on the streets? McDonald's or any fast food restaurant in the area lets you use the bathroom for free. These people are so lazy (or mentally ill) they can't even be bothered to walk inside a fast food place to use the bathroom. You know how many times I had to go to the bathroom really bad on my drive home and I stop off at a fast food place off the highway and go to the bathroom??? No one ever says one word to me. I don't just pull my car off the road and defecate out my door onto the road.

No they do not. Many places that have a homeless problem have restaurants with locked bathroom doors. You can get the code to enter by showing your purchase receipt.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Just goes to show these people don't try one bit.

Tell me that you don't actually, seriously, think of yourself as a Christian.

God helps those who help themselves. If you refuse to do anything, sit around drinking booze all day, youre not trying. Libraries are free. You can go in and use the free computer to apply for jobs.

And why are they defecating on the streets? McDonald's or any fast food restaurant in the area lets you use the bathroom for free. These people are so lazy (or mentally ill) they can't even be bothered to walk inside a fast food place to use the bathroom. You know how many times I had to go to the bathroom really bad on my drive home and I stop off at a fast food place off the highway and go to the bathroom??? No one ever says one word to me. I don't just pull my car off the road and defecate out my door onto the road.

Why do you hate freedom? You are okay with rich people shitting all over the environment, but when a poor person has to literally shit in your environment, it's "lock her up!"

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Charging homeless $1000 is a theme. The alternative is not great either. 43 states charge you money to be in prison. Did you know that? They give a couple of bucks a day for work, but prisons have commissaries with necessities that cost money. Nevada started charging for meals, health care, and clothing too. By the time a person gets out, they may owe tens of thousands.

But the good news is that they owe that money to private for-profit prison corporations and not to the government. This means that not only are rich people making more money, but the added debt severely limits the opportunities for released prisoners, which increases the chances that they'll return to criminal behaviour and get arrested again and generate additional revenue streams for the prison corporations.

Exactly. The state offset the cost of dealing with the homeless by tapping into what they already pay for prisons. Legalized weed is leaving glaring underuse in services already paid for by the taxpayer.

Quite the solution.

aa


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Half-Life]

Why do you hate freedom? You are okay with rich people shitting all over the environment, but when a poor person has to literally shit in your environment, it's "lock her up!"

As I have repeatedly said, if we changed our lifestyle leftists would be the first ones complaining about how hard things are. They already complain. Imagine how much louder the will get if we stopped our fossil fuels consumption out of nowhere.

They also do not "shit all over the environment."

 

[southernhybrid]

https://parade.com/643064/beckyhughes/working-homeless-population-grows-in-cities-across-the-u-s/

The working homeless population in tech hubs like Seattle and San Francisco has made headlines recently, and Axios says the problem is spreading even further across the states to cities including Dallas, New York and Washington, D.C.

These thousands of homeless workers return to their cars, RVs, homeless shelters, side streets or parking lots—often with their entire family—when their workday is done. Often called an invisible problem due to the lack of data on this growing population, working homelessness presents a host of problems, from basic questions like where to shower, sleep and eat safely to issues like not having a permanent address.

Some of you are so judgmental and unaware of the fact that a good percentage of homeless folks are employed, despite the fact that it's very difficult to hold down a job when you can't afford a place to live. Those who don't work are often mentally ill, including a large number of veterans who suffer from PTSD. Yeah. That's right. Our fucking country sends people into war zones, where they sometimes get injured or suffer from PTSD, and then they end up living on the streets or in homeless shelters when they get back home. Applying for VA disability is a long, drawn out process, and it can take years to be approved.

The problem is that housing is extremely unaffordable in many Americans cities, and we have failed our mentally ill folks. I had quite a few severely mentally ill patients when I worked in an assisted living facility, but if these folks didn't have some family members who were willing and able to get them connected to social services, some of them could have been out on the street too. I'm talking about people who had very serious mental illnesses.

And, if you are paying attention, you probably know that about half of Americans are about one pay check away from losing their homes. Wages haven't kept up with he cost of living and it's pretty damn hard to survive if you only make 7.25 an hour, the current federal minimum wage. While some states have a higher minimum wage, it's still not enough for an individual to support themselves unless they have access to subsidized housing, SNAP benefits etc.

I really don't understand why some of you think it's cruel to ask the.most wealthy to pay more taxes to help support the government that they benefit from, but it's okay to harshly judge those who haven't been able to make it on their own. And, when some of these cities consider building more affordable housing, some of the well off scream, "not in my backyard"! How the fuck do you expect low wage earners to survive if they can't find affordable housing close to where they work! I guess in some cities, affordable housing means living in a tent on the street.

 

[TSwizzle]

I really don't understand why some of you think it's cruel to ask the.most wealthy to pay more taxes to help support the government that they benefit from, but it's okay to harshly judge those who haven't been able to make it on their own.

The citizens of Los Angeles agreed to a sales tax increase that raises something like $600m per year specifically for the "homeless crisis". Los Angeles' incompetent leaders in City Hall have barely made a dent in the problem. Things are actually worse. And I certainly don't think the tax payer should be enabling the homeless/unhoused to keep their anti social lifestyle as it is, i.e. take drugs all day and night and sleep and piss on the side walk. Money has been made available, get the shelters built and get them off the sidewalk.

And, when some of these cities consider building more affordable housing, some of the well off scream, "not in my backyard"! How the fuck do you expect low wage earners to survive if they can't find affordable housing close to where they work! I guess in some cities, affordable housing means living in a tent on the street.

Too right. If Beverly Hills was affordable, I'd live there too. But since I can't afford to live there, I live somewhere else, somewhere I can afford. Not in my car and not in a tent on the sidewalk. And somehow I can make it into work in Beverly Hills (adjacent).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then maybe that should be addressed?

The problem is we don't have any good solution. Mental health treatment is generally unpleasant and they avoid it.

No. It's more like public support for mental health treatment was drastically cut down during the 1980s. The long term care hospitals were closed down and there was supposed to be a lot of money for public health nurses etc. to help the more seriously mental ill folks live independently.

Plus, many if not most homeless folks aren't mentally ill. They just can't afford housing, especially if they live in a city where housing is extremely expensive. Some homeless people actually hold down full time jobs, shower in public restrooms etc. But it's not easy to work and be homeless.

The lack of compassion and understanding coming from people posting on this thread is rather sad.

The ones that just can't afford housing aren't the problem that upsets people like the crazies. They don't behave badly in public, they try to sleep out of sight etc. The attempts to drive them out are about the nutters and the druggies.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the lack of compassion from the Democratic liberal run cities too. If they wanted to, these local governments could and would make sure home prices in these area's remained stable. But they don't want their housing prices to be lower. I can think of policies just off my head that contribute to the problem of unstable housing prices (and subsequent homelessness):

Home prices reflect supply and demand. It's not something the government can do a lot about. Note, also, that people do not like high density housing moving into their areas--that's where most of the trouble comes from.

1. Get rid of proposition 13 - Make everyone pay property taxes equally and fairly based on assessed value. Absolutely no exceptions. Yes, that means the old retired people will have to move out to other cheaper areas of the country. But they do not work anyway and do not need to live close to jobs. No one gets a tax break based just on seniority.

13 is blamed for far more harm than it actually does.

2. Do not allow any outside investment positions of real estate. China go home and stop raising the prices.

You realize China has current exit controls these days that pretty much don't allow this sort of thing?? (China wants that investment to be domestic.)

3. Relax the codes and allow more building on free land and more vertical structures to improve density

1) Vertical structures don't save that much money in the first place.
2) There will be considerable public objection. Such buildings spread crime around. There's a very good reason many HOAs put severe restrictions on renting out your property--the higher the percentage of owner-occupied units the lower the problems.

4. No empty ghost homes. If you buy a home, you live there or you have to rent it out. Reduce speculation any way possible.

How big an issue is that actually in the US?

And note that it's the renter protections that cause them in the first place. Owners worry about how badly rentals can go wrong and how much the government will protect the renter in such cases and won't throw people who deliberately wreck a place in jail.

5. Take away some of the monetary incentive of house flippers.

You realize most flippers these days buy property in need of substantial work, they fix the place up and then sell it. It's good for society, not bad.