1984 Doublespeak and Newspeak

[Jarhyn]

Or perhaps, let's back it up a bit. What do you believe the term "transwoman" encompasses, in terms of outward presentation, hormones, surgeries, social behavior, and sexual behavior?

This is a huge part of the problem. The word "trans" isn't well defined.

According to California law, Tubbs qualifies as trans. A woman. That's why they are in a facility for females.
I would use the pronoun "he" referring to Tubbs, but it would be politically incorrect to do so. So I won't.
Tom

And this is why I keep arguing for the adoption of language that is capable of riding the knife's edge between Tubbs's rights, and the rights of those around them: separate on hormonal affect, and leave it at that. Don't make attempts to "define" men and women legally.

I argue rather define something that matters legally, and let the bickering assholes colloquialize it inappropriately as they may.

Little will change except that people like Tubbs are thwarted. People will still CALL it a "girls facility" however inappropriate that technically is. As long as those people arent the guards and as long as they aren't calling anyone a girl who isn't, and are calling everyone a girl who is, as befits their identity.

As long as you are not calling them "girls" universally around me, I can't object in any way to what you say.

If you want to discriminate in the estates on the basis of current hormone exposures and current body type, be my guest.

It doesn't erase the identity of women to not discriminate on the basis of "woman".

 

[Metaphor]

Trans people are human beings.

Who expressed any doubt about it?

You should ask more women than what you find in a white supremacist group how they feel about trans women. The majority of us do not feel threatened.

A white supremacist group? I do not appreciate your attempt to poison the well.

If a man dresses up like a woman to go into ladies rooms for the purpose of violence or sex crimes,

I did not invoke such a scenario, though of course gender cultists have enabled such a scenario.

then that is not a trans woman.

That's interesting - are you giving us a definition of trans woman? And do you get to decide who a trans woman is?

(In fact, that sounds exactly like something we'd hear about a Republican congressman doing.)

Republicans are human beings.

If you come to find your value and worth as a human being, you might be able to see the value and worth in trans people and lighten up on them and your cardiovascular system.

My self-worth is not the problem. Having gender cultists try to force their religion on me, however, is a problem.

 

[Metaphor]

So, this is a dishonest straw-manning of my views on gender versus genitals.

I am in no way obsessed with what genitals people have. That you seem so obsessed that you must embed your (flawed) observations on genitals onto daily conversation is the issue.

Any reader can see how many times the gender cultists bring up genitals. They do it first and often. They believe that talking about the sex of a person means inspecting their genitals or other such nonsense.

The doublespeak is in trying to flip that issue around.

It is not that I believe ascertaining genitals requires esoteric powers,

Nobody is ascertaining genitals. They are seeing somebody's sex.

furthermore. It's that I believe making attempts to guess what genitals people have is rude; prying; invasion of privacy just as much as ascertaining what your neighbour is watching at midnight through their bedroom window is, while something attainable, exceedingly rude.

Your obsession with genitals is alarming. Get over it. If you believe you cannot observe somebody's sex without observing their genitals, or you cannot think about somebody's sex without thinking about their genitals, you should seek mental help for it.

I don't care about anyone's genitals except that they be shaped as the owner of them may please; and that the people around me not make casual assumptions about what is in my nor anyone else's pants except as they may actively and vocally invite of their clear consent.

Now are you going to stamp up and down and insist that you aren't going to discuss it with me, despite having sought me out to comment, with your dishonest straw-manning of my views?

It is you straw-manning me, constantly and relentlessly. You have a genital fetish that you project on to me and on anyone else who acknowledges the biological reality of sex. (Toni does the same thing).

 

[Angry Floof]

(In fact, that sounds exactly like something we'd hear about a Republican congressman doing.)

Republicans are human beings.

Yep, even the ones that commit or attempt sex crimes in public restrooms. But we don't punish them for being Republicans or for their gender or sex or sexual inclinations. We punish Republicans who commit crimes for the crime they are committing. (Ignoring the fact that so many Republican criminals are roaming free as we speak.)

If you come to find your value and worth as a human being, you might be able to see the value and worth in trans people and lighten up on them and your cardiovascular system.

My self-worth is not the problem. Having gender cultists try to force their religion on me, however, is a problem.

They're not forcing anything on you. You're free to use whatever words you want, but so are racists and misogynists when they want to use a word that best describes their feelings about a group of people and they don't have to have the ability to self reflect or, gods forbit, listen to other human beings before condemning them to be social outcasts. And the rest of us will continue to make you as uncomfortable as possible doing so in order to help protect vulnerable groups, just as we've always done. You're so on the wrong side of history that you might as well hide in a bunker.

Again, I hope someday soon you learn to acknowledge and value your own humanness over winning arguments and trying to verbally punish outgroups. Maybe then you'll be able to value others' and you won't need to punish yourself like this.

 

[Metaphor]

In many regards, it is doublethink on display here, as the original gripe seems to be an intent to use NewSpeak to make it impossible to address concepts of social identity free of revelations of genital identity and then reverse the accusations.

Genitals don't have identities.

Once again, Jarhyn's obsession with genitals comes to the fore, as well as his utter delusion that recognising somebody's sex (something that happens every single time someone is 'misgendered') requires esoteric powers.

"The fact that society believes the man who says he is a woman rather than the woman who says he's not is proof that society knows which is the man and which is the woman."

I've heard trans ideologists called 'men's rights activists', which is of course meant as a pejorative, and which I find slightly hurtful, as I believe men ought to have rights, men and boys have unique problems compared to women and girls, and I am an advocate for addressing those problems.

Of course, I don't believe men have the right to declare that they are women and be treated as if they were women in single-sex spaces.

 

[Trausti]

Again, I hope someday soon you learn to acknowledge and value your own humanness over winning arguments and trying to verbally punish outgroups. Maybe then you'll be able to value others' and you won't need to punish yourself like this.

Who is devaluing a person’s humanness? But saying that a woman is not an adult female human certainly devalues women. Is a cow not a female bovine? A bull a male bovine? Feelings don’t change reality.

 

[Angry Floof]

Again, I hope someday soon you learn to acknowledge and value your own humanness over winning arguments and trying to verbally punish outgroups. Maybe then you'll be able to value others' and you won't need to punish yourself like this.

Who is devaluing a person’s humanness?

You and your ilk.

But saying that a woman is not an adult female human certainly devalues women. Is a cow not a female bovine? A bull a male bovine?

Show me where I described women like that.

Feelings don’t change reality.

Sometimes they do. In fact, I'd say quite often feelings change reality on a social level when a humane regard for people is stronger and more widely held than bigotry from social dominance baboons.

 

[Metaphor]

Yep, even the ones that commit or attempt sex crimes in public restrooms. But we don't punish them for being Republicans or for their gender or sex or sexual inclinations. We punish Republicans who commit crimes for the crime they are committing. (Ignoring the fact that so many Republican criminals are roaming free as we speak.)

Who's punishing anybody?

Segregating people by sex isn't punishing them.

They're not forcing anything on you.

Of course they are. The government in Australia can punish you for 'misgendering'.

You're free to use whatever words you want,

No, I am not.

but so are racists and misogynists when they want to use a word that best describes their feelings about a group of people and they don't have to have the ability to self reflect or, gods forbit, listen to other human beings before condemning them to be social outcasts.

It is not hateful, nor anything like racist or misogynist, to observe that adult human males are men.

Calling a man a man isn't problematic. It's a simple acknowledgment of reality.

And the rest of us will continue to make you as uncomfortable as possible doing so in order to help protect vulnerable groups, just as we've always done. You're so on the wrong side of history that you might as well hide in a bunker.

Your persecution of those who don't share your religion has already been noted. You don't need to make the threat explicit.

Again, I hope someday soon you learn to acknowledge and value your own humanness

My humanity isn't the problem, nor my self esteem.

over winning arguments and trying to verbally punish outgroups. Maybe then you'll be able to value others' and you won't need to punish yourself like this.

It is you and other gender cultists trying to punish the people who acknowledge reality - as you openly brag about above.

I could quietly pretend to accept the gender cultist religion, just for the gender cultists to stop persecuting me, but that would be dishonest and cowardly.

 

[Trausti]

Sometimes they do. In fact, I'd say quite often feelings change reality on a social level when a humane regard for people is stronger and more widely held than bigotry from social dominance baboons.

How do feelings change biological reality? Someone born male can never be female. Saying otherwise is certainly orwellian.

 

[Angry Floof]

Feelings and attitudes determine how society treats people. It's only a minority (though a big minority at the moment) who can't seem to understand what a society even is.

Again, I hope both of you come to recognize and value your humanness. It's only that same minority that is entrenched in an us vs. them mentality that has a problem with that. I don't know how either of you would recognize someone whose world view and regard for humans is not based in tribalism and the urge to control and dominate rather than in a humane world view.

Just a side question out of curiosity, what do you consider to be human strengths and weaknesses?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, it's interesting insofar as the doublespeak on display here.

Someone is claiming that others bring up genitals incessantly.

Yet these same people bring up genitals, by necessity and their own admission, whenever they address any person with any pronoun, unless expected by the decorum of the place, and then only at great dismay.

My bringing it up as an example of "newspeak I particularly dislike", something which is notably the topic, is "discussion on topic".

The vocal objections to this recognition, well, those are not "discussion on topic" so much as "topic of discussion".

 

[Trausti]

Again, I hope both of you come to recognize and value your humanness.

Wow. That straw man is dead dude. With flies and maggots.

 

[Emily Lake]

You're so on the wrong side of history that you might as well hide in a bunker.

It's going to be interesting in 50 years.

We've got a cohort insisting that a male's feelings alone, and a set of magical words, entitles that male to be housed in a female prison, with no consideration or compassion at all for the females who are housed there is "the right side of history". The group of people arguing for self-id, and for be-penised individuals to have access to women and girls at their whim and overriding some very basic safeguarding tenets are calling their view "the right side of history". The group of people pushing for policies that dismantle the right of women to have sexual boundaries, to have safety, and to have equal access to society, economy, and politics think they're on the "right side of history".

If the "right side of history" is the one that is pushing women out of their own sex class and out of their own safe spaces.... I don't really want to be part of that future.

 

[Trausti]

So, it's interesting insofar as the doublespeak on display here.

Someone is claiming that others bring up genitals incessantly.

Yet these same people bring up genitals, by necessity and their own admission, whenever they address any person with any pronoun, unless expected by the decorum of the place, and then only at great dismay.

My bringing it up as an example of "newspeak I particularly dislike", something which is notably the topic, is "discussion on topic".

The vocal objections to this recognition, well, those are not "discussion on topic" so much as "topic of discussion".

Is a eunuch a man or a woman?

 

[Emily Lake]

And the rest of us will continue to make you as uncomfortable as possible doing so in order to help protect vulnerable groups

Oh hooray! It's so refreshing to see someone arguing so strongly that it is right and noble to make women uncomfortable, to force rape victims to be examined by males who said magic words, to force females to share spaces with males against their will! That's real progress right there, innit?

Because apparently a small group of males are vulnerable... but women are not. The group of people that are massively, disproportionately the victims of male sex crimes... they're not vulnerable. Rather, the group that commits sex crimes at the same rate as males - they're the truly vulnerable ones, and how dare women want to be safe from them!

 

[Trausti]

If the "right side of history" is the one that is pushing women out of their own sex class and out of their own safe spaces.... I don't really want to be part of that future.

The patriarchy, or POP (People of Penis), always wins.

 

[Emily Lake]

@Angry Floof - any chance you'd like to answer my questions? They seem to have been missed in your zeal to slap down two men while claiming to speak for all women.

There's more danger of Republicans sneaking into a women's room and molesting other people than a trans woman.

Why do you believe this to be true?

Or perhaps, let's back it up a bit. What do you believe the term "transwoman" encompasses, in terms of outward presentation, hormones, surgeries, social behavior, and sexual behavior?

 

[Metaphor]

Feelings and attitudes determine how society treats people. It's only a minority (though a big minority at the moment) who can't seem to understand what a society even is.

Again, I hope both of you come to recognize and value your humanness.

Please stop this. I do not have a problem with understanding my own humanity.

Here's another: what do you suggest I do about my feelings and attitudes? Note the following about my beliefs, feelings, and attitudes:

• Humans, and mammals in general, cannot change their sex. It is a biological impossibility.
• Your gender identity is a thought in your head and does not change or affect your biological sex. Neither indeed does any surgery change your sex.
• Society segregates the sexes in certain situations, including intimate spaces and sports. The reasons for the sex segregation varies, but often it is for the physical and psychological comfort of women.
• I cannot look at an adult human male and pretend I do not see an adult human male. It is literally impossible for me to do so. If you paid me a million dollars to believe that a particular adult human male was an adult human female, I still could not believe it.
• I believe it is wrong for 'gender identity' to supplant sex in cases where we segregate people by sex.

How do you suggest I change these problematic beliefs? Should I repeat the dogma of the gender cultists and pretend that I believe it, merely to have a quiet life? To whom should I pray to stop believing biological facts? Why can't the gender cultists leave me alone, instead of forcing me to follow their rituals under threat of State enforcement and punishment?

 

[Trausti]

I cannot look at an adult human male and pretend I do not see an adult human male.

Evolution has primed us to recognize the binary sexes. That’s why a biological woman needn’t wear feminine clothes or try to be pretty and we see a woman. A man needs to put in a lot of effort to pull off the female mimicry.

 

[Angry Floof]

I cannot look at an adult human male and pretend I do not see an adult human male.

Evolution has primed us to recognize the binary sexes.

Evolution has primed us in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make any modern idea about them right or wrong.

Evolution has also primed us in ways that enable us to be less stupid, less black and white, less reflexive/instinctive/reactive, less tribalistic, less aggressive, more empathetic, more intelligent, more articulate, more self aware, more aware of others, and to be able to change our minds.

In spite of so much of humanity not getting the memo on that, these traits are the kinds of things that enable us to transcend things like:
- gorilla posturing
- violent reactions
- abandoning injured tribe members
- shitting wherever
- assuming that we're conditioned to only recognize a binary sex/gender paradigm and therefore we should be closed to any other way of thinking about our fellow human beings who don't fall neatly into that narrow, closed, inhumane, right wing expectation.

That's just assuming you're right, which you are not, that evolution dictates that only people you recognize as female have periods and can give birth and that anything outside of that specific criteria is beyond what your mind (and therefore everyone else's) is allowed to conceive of as natural and true. There is no good reason whatsoever to reject members of your tribe for not falling into an easy, simple framework that you're comfortable with. You can just as easily, more easily in fact, accept them and uplift them in the tribe.

Y'all keep insisting that it's one or the other when evolution (or whatever authority you want to cite) clearly produces human beings who don't fall into that simple binary framework. Try listening to trans people and non-binary people and others who don't fall into your comfortable status quo about their experiences instead of doubling down on the prejudice that evolution has apparently endowed you with in spite of your also being fully capable of empathy and self reflection.

Would you like some links to films, podcasts, youtube channels, etc., to help you understand people better?

That’s why a biological woman needn’t wear feminine clothes or try to be pretty and we see a woman. A man needs to put in a lot of effort to pull off the female mimicry.

I get it. You have a list of "biological woman" criteria that is all about appearances and bodies, but also in your beliefs about biological processes that you can't actually see. You have to assume a lot about a woman to know what's going on inside either her body or her mind, which is actually none of your business. So it's weird that you don't choose to respect them as a human being first before you ask them inappropriate questions or assume anything about them or condemn them to life experiences of prejudice and abuse in a society that shows them very little they can relate to and a status quo that actively contributes to that harm.

It must be exhausting. The effort it must take to ignore a mountain of human beings while justifying your views in a narrow context of women's restrooms. Your restroom boogie man is false and leading your mind to cruelty.

Ain't you tired, Miss Hilly? Ain't you tired?

Thank goodness I don't need to get any of that specific information about a person or judge their appearance to be anything in particular in order to regard them with empathy and accept their full humanity. It's effortless to stay out of their business or to say "ok" and listen when they do tell me their story and to support them as accepted members of our tribe of seven billion.