# 2020 Election Results

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
The reaction of Lauren Boebert's former campaign manager seemed hyperbolic:
legal defense fund of Mesa County Clerk and Recorder Tina Peters said:
“Today large teams of heavily armed federal agents, using a battering ram to break down doors, raided the homes of Mesa County Clerk Tina Peters and several of her friends and colleagues, mostly elderly women in their mid 60s. This is a level of weaponization of the Justice Department we haven’t seen since the McCarthy era. Thank God Tina wasn’t protesting critical race theory at a Virginia school board meeting or they might have brought two battering rams.”

Tuesday night Peters did appear on Lindell TV, a channel ran by MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell to speak about the raid.
Yes, but did they also discuss critical race theory? Critical pillow theory?

#### T.G.G. Moogly

Wednesday afternoon, Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser and 21st Judicial District Attorney Dan Rubinstein released the following statement:

“Yesterday, the 21st Judicial District Attorney’s Office and the Colorado Attorney General’s Office—along with our FBI partners—conducted authorized enforcement actions in support of an ongoing investigation into the alleged election system breach in Mesa County. We have reviewed a statement from Tina Peters’ legal defense fund that claims a level of force during the execution of this joint federal-state law enforcement operation. At no time was force used on Ms. Peters or her home. Ms. Peters was allowed to move around her home and fix herself breakfast while agents gathered items before departing. We are issuing this statement to clear up inaccuracies about what occurred during yesterday’s enforcement action. We will continue to conduct a thorough investigation based on facts and the law, including using proper law enforcement tools such as the judicially authorized search that was executed properly in this matter.”

So more standard right wing lying. Why am I no surprised?

#### T.G.G. Moogly

Meanwhile, here in Missouri.....this is a poll by a somewhat local television station:

View attachment 36616

These are the people I live around.

Ruth
Do you live around Branson?

#### Ruth Harris

##### Token Christian
No, I am hours away from Branson. This attitude, unfortunately, is very common in Missouri. This is a solid red state except for the larger cities (KC, St. Louis, Columbia areas). I was born and raised in KC and these people give me culture shock constantly.

Ruth

#### Rhea

##### Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Wednesday afternoon, Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser and 21st Judicial District Attorney Dan Rubinstein released the following statement:

“Yesterday, the 21st Judicial District Attorney’s Office and the Colorado Attorney General’s Office—along with our FBI partners—conducted authorized enforcement actions in support of an ongoing investigation into the alleged election system breach in Mesa County. We have reviewed a statement from Tina Peters’ legal defense fund that claims a level of force during the execution of this joint federal-state law enforcement operation. At no time was force used on Ms. Peters or her home. Ms. Peters was allowed to move around her home and fix herself breakfast while agents gathered items before departing. We are issuing this statement to clear up inaccuracies LIES about what occurred during yesterday’s enforcement action. We will continue to conduct a thorough investigation based on facts and the law, including using proper law enforcement tools such as the judicially authorized search that was executed properly in this matter.”

So more standard right wing lying. Why am I no surprised?
Fixed that for them.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Meanwhile, here in Missouri.....this is a poll by a somewhat local television station:

View attachment 36616

These are the people I live around.

Ruth

Depends on how you define "fraud" and "result".

If you include all the dishonest anti-voter crap the Republicans pulled as "fraud" and you look at "result" as in the vote numbers rather than just the outcome, certainly.

#### T.G.G. Moogly

Competition in sports would be interesting if everytime a person or team lost close the claim was made that it was because the referees, umpires, judges and the opponent cheated. Most organizations have rules that address such behavior but not politics.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member

Groups supporting former President Donald Trump in Arizona and Michigan sent fake documents to the National Archives falsely showing that he had won those states' Electoral College votes.

Forged certificates of ascertainment were sent to the National Archives by pro-Trump groups in each state in December 2020. The document from Arizona bore the state seal and legal action was taken against those responsible.

Certificates of ascertainment identify how a state's electors have cast their votes in the presidential election and the faked documents show Trump and then Vice President Mike Pence winning the slates of electors in both states.

#### Elixir

Groups supporting former President Donald Trump in Arizona and Michigan sent fake documents to the National Archives falsely showing that he had won those states' Electoral College votes.

Forged certificates of ascertainment were sent to the National Archives by pro-Trump groups in each state in December 2020. The document from Arizona bore the state seal and legal action was taken against those responsible.

Certificates of ascertainment identify how a state's electors have cast their votes in the presidential election and the faked documents show Trump and then Vice President Mike Pence winning the slates of electors in both states.

Also Wisconsin. Everyone who signed those documents should have been arrested long ago, tried, convicted and imprisoned by now. It’s a slam dunk, smoking gun case
WTF is DOJ up to, and why are they not doing their job?
Kid glove treatment of traitors will be the death of the union.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member

I think his mattress has slipped of its foundation. (pillow humor)

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member

This is good news.
The Georgia district attorney investigating whether former President Donald Trump and his allies committed crimes when they tried to overturn the 2020 election there has asked a judge for a special grand jury for the probe.

In a letter, Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis said her office has reason to believe "that the State of Georgia's administration of elections in 2020, including the State's election of the President of the United States, was subject to possible criminal disruptions."

A special grand jury allows the DA to issue subpoenas. In the letter, Willis says several witnesses or potential witnesses — including Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger — "have refused to cooperate with the investigation absent a subpoena requiring their testimony."

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states

Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw efforts in December 2020 to put forward illegitimate electors from seven states that Trump lost, according to three sources with direct knowledge of the scheme.

The sources said members of former President Donald Trump's campaign team were far more involved than previously known in the plan, a core tenet of the broader plot to overturn President Joe Biden's victory when Congress counted the electoral votes on January 6.
Giuliani and his allies coordinated the nuts-and-bolts of the process on a state-by-state level, the sources told CNN. One source said there were multiple planning calls between Trump campaign officials and GOP state operatives, and that Giuliani participated in at least one call. The source also said the Trump campaign lined up supporters to fill elector slots, secured meeting rooms in statehouses for the fake electors to meet on December 14, 2020, and circulated drafts of fake certificates that were ultimately sent to the National Archives.

Trump and some of his top advisers publicly encouraged the "alternate electors" scheme in Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico. But behind the scenes, Giuliani and Trump campaign officials actively choreographed the process, the sources said.

One fake elector from Michigan boasted at a recent event hosted by a local Republican organization that the Trump campaign directed the entire operation.
"We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked us to do that," Meshawn Maddock, co-chair of the Michigan Republican Party, said at a public event last week that was organized by the conservative group Stand Up Michigan, according to a recording obtained by CNN.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor

Groups supporting former President Donald Trump in Arizona and Michigan sent fake documents to the National Archives falsely showing that he had won those states' Electoral College votes.

Forged certificates of ascertainment were sent to the National Archives by pro-Trump groups in each state in December 2020. The document from Arizona bore the state seal and legal action was taken against those responsible.

Certificates of ascertainment identify how a state's electors have cast their votes in the presidential election and the faked documents show Trump and then Vice President Mike Pence winning the slates of electors in both states.

Also Wisconsin. Everyone who signed those documents should have been arrested long ago, tried, convicted and imprisoned by now. It’s a slam dunk, smoking gun case
WTF is DOJ up to, and why are they not doing their job?
Kid glove treatment of traitors will be the death of the union.
The frustrating part is that all of these people have their finger prints (and signatures) on this evidence, which makes them guilty of crimes. Where as Trump... not guilty of any of it. Until we talk Georgia.

#### Elixir

I think his mattress has slipped of its foundation. (pillow humor)

If anyone wants to hold it over his face, I'll lend you My Pillow.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Idaho sends MyPillow CEO a cease and desist letter along with $6k bill. Here's why Three months after a state investigation disproved MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell's accusations of voter fraud in Idaho, the information remains on Lindell's website. Idaho government officials want it gone. They also want Lindell to pay the state for the money it spent proving Lindell's allegations wrong. Secretary of State Lawerence Denney and Attorney General Lawrence Wasden sent a cease-and-desist letter to Lindell on Tuesday. They asked Lindell to "promptly remove all false statements about Idaho's elections from your website" and "refrain from making similar statements in the future." "Despite knowing your statements about Idaho's elections are false, you have not removed your 'Big Lie' chart and continue to perpetuate your false statements," the letter stated. Idaho is also coming for Lindell's wallet. The letter requested he send$6,558.83 to the secretary of state's office to cover the money it spent refuting his claims. The office first announced plans to seek payment in October.

The Idaho Statesman reached out to Lindell by email but received no response as of Wednesday evening.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
Evidence: {}

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
And other, earlier elections. When it comes down to it, Americans as a whole have very little trust in the electoral system that selects their leaders. As well they should not, though I disagree with some of the reasons (ie conspiracy theories) they think it fails to be representative.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
A tentative "yes" to the other elections referenced. There was a significant portion of the population that thought Putin was behind Trump stealing the 2016 election.

The only flaw is that there isn't a lot of overlap between the people who think 2016 was stolen and the people who think 2020 was stolen. Both had significant numbers, but little overlap.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
I don't remember very many mainstream pols saying the 2016 election was stolen. Certainly not like almost the entirety of the Republican party today. Can you give some examples?

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
Yet more right-wing assertion of victimhood. Weep weep weep weep weep.

Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
How many times will I need to repeat this?

#### TV and credit cards

##### Veteran Member
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
I must have missed them all. Prior to The Great Whinge of 2020, I am only aware of Republicans correcting nonexistent voting irregularities in states with tight races, why the fuck do we need an Electoral College, and all politicians suck.
I do not think nor do I know of anyone who thinks Hillary did not lose in 2016 all on her own.

#### T.G.G. Moogly

I don't remember very many mainstream pols saying the 2016 election was stolen. Certainly not like almost the entirety of the Republican party today. Can you give some examples?
You mean like the kind of evidence and examples that republicans have been using? If that's what you mean then there isn't any.

#### Elixir

Jason said:
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
Trump started telling you the 2020 election was stolen in 2018. Were you asleep? For month after deadly boring month, he trained you to repeat the mantra “if Democrats win the election was stolen”, until you dutifully internalized it. So there was no convincing necessary after he lost 2020 in a landslide ( by his own definition).
Unquestioning, credulous trumpsuckers never considered the formidable logistics of “rigging” even one State’s election, let alone rigging an 8 million vote margin - all without leaving one single witness or one single piece of hard evidence.
But what should one expect from the bleach-drinkers?

#### Elixir

The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
Yet more right-wing assertion of victimhood. Weep weep weep weep weep.

Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
How many times will I need to repeat this?
The Republicans have said it enough times already, after their uncle Vlad “assisted” in getting “his boy” elected.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
And other, earlier elections. ...
Jason Harvestdancer, Politesse, do either of you have *any* details?

I am not aware that *anyone* has claimed that there was the enormous amount of election fraud that Trump and his supporters claimed for 2020. That's not to say that there haven't been some squeakers where some people made an issue about some of the voting. I have in mind 1960 and 2000. But 2020 wasn't such a squeaker.

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
And other, earlier elections. ...
Jason Harvestdancer, Politesse, do either of you have *any* details?

I am not aware that *anyone* has claimed that there was the enormous amount of election fraud that Trump and his supporters claimed for 2020. That's not to say that there haven't been some squeakers where some people made an issue about some of the voting. I have in mind 1960 and 2000. But 2020 wasn't such a squeaker.

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.
Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.
Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.
You have to go back to 1824 to find evidence?

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.
Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.
You have to go back to 1824 to find evidence?
No, 1824 is the first major political scandal concerning fraud in the election that I am aware of, not the most recent. There have been a great many since, and even some openly and well-understood cases of corruption, such as 1864's mutual vote-stuffing scandals and the backroom deal that put Rutherford B. Hayes in office. If your position is that history doesn't matter and demand something from your own lifetime, do you remember the contested Bush v. Gore election of 2000? People were not shy about throwing accusations of fraudulent activity in both directions, and accusing the highest court in the land of corruption by monied interests. Americans don't trust their government to represent them democratically, and if you ask me that's because it fundamentally does not, even if the popular conspiracy theory du jour (or de jure, some years!) is not the true reason why.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
Good point. Trump claimed that there was serious amounts of fraud in the 2016 election, which is why he lost the popular vote. And his followers swallowed that stuff down with ease.

Odd how then four years later his campaign attempted to get fake electors to vote for him.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
Good point. Trump claimed that there was serious amounts of fraud in the 2016 election, which is why he lost the popular vote. And his followers swallowed that stuff down with ease.

Odd how then four years later his campaign attempted to get fake electors to vote for him.
That such steps were taken seems to me to mean they knew Trump lost.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
No, 1824 is the first major political scandal concerning fraud in the election that I am aware of, not the most recent. There have been a great many since, and even some openly and well-understood cases of corruption, such as 1864's mutual vote-stuffing scandals and the backroom deal that put Rutherford B. Hayes in office.
Why not make a list of such scandals?
If your position is that history doesn't matter and demand something from your own lifetime, do you remember the contested Bush v. Gore election of 2000? ...
I'm well aware of that. It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor

Three events in American political history have been called a corrupt bargain: the 1824 United States presidential election, the Compromise of 1877 and Gerald Ford's 1974 pardon of Richard Nixon.

...
In the 1824 election, without an absolute majority winner in the Electoral College, the 12th Amendment dictated that the outcome of the Presidential election be determined by the House of Representatives. The then Speaker of the House — and low-ranked presidential candidate in that same election — Henry Clay gave his support to John Quincy Adams, the candidate with the second-most votes. Adams was granted the presidency, and then proceeded to select Clay to be his Secretary of State. In the 1876 election, accusations of corruption stemmed from officials involved in counting the necessary and hotly contested electoral votes of both sides, in which Rutherford B. Hayes was elected by a congressional commission.
The 1824 Presidential election was a where the electoral college did not give a majority to any of the candidates, sending the election into the House. There was one other, in 1800, and one for the Vice President in 1836.

So we have five elections where the system did not produce unambiguous results: 1800, 1824, 1876, 1960, and 2000.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.
After a fashion. Do you not remember how popular mutual accusations of various kinds of fraud, each more outlandish than the last, were at the time?

And as I have remarked and as is easy to confirm, this kind of paranoia and partisan recrimination is baked into our system; the norm, not the exception. Check out this interesting article from the Smithsonian, discussing the first American century and it's various scandals, frauds, and civil wars: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ded-19th-century-american-politics-180971940/

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.
I don't remember very many mainstream pols saying the 2016 election was stolen. Certainly not like almost the entirety of the Republican party today. Can you give some examples?
Crickets...

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
1800

Back then, the electors used the original procedure. The electors had two votes each, the President was whoever got the most, and the Vice President the second most.

Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr were tied for electoral votes, and the election then went to the House. The Reps were TJ 8, AB 6, divided 2 for 35 votes until one Rep decided to have no vote instead of AB. That made the final vote TJ 10, AB 4, none 2, and TJ got elected.

1824

Though Andrew Jackson got the most electoral votes, he did not get a majority, and the election went to the House again.

House Speaker Henry Clay detested AJ, saying of him "I cannot believe that killing 2,500 Englishmen at New Orleans qualifies for the various, difficult, and complicated duties of the Chief Magistracy." He leaned on state delegations to vote for his preferred candidate, John Quincy Adams, and JQA won.

1876

That was a very close and contentious election, with a lot of disputed results. This produced a constitutional crisis, and Congress resolved it with a 15-member Electoral Commission. Democrats accepted Republican Rutherford Hayes as President in exchange for concessions like the end of the remaining Federal occupation of Southern states.

1960

Illinois voted for JFK over Richard Nixon with a very narrow margin, with some Republicans claiming that Democrats stole the election for JFK there.

2000

The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.
After a fashion. Do you not remember how popular mutual accusations of various kinds of fraud, each more outlandish than the last, were at the time?
I wasn't alive back then.

Shallow hand-waving is NOT very good research.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.
Point of contention. Bush II actually lost Florida when a full recount was done at a later date, The Gore campaign made a major mistake when they failed to ask for a full recount which is allowed by Florida law. The Supreme Court then stopped anyone from doing anything about it.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.
Point of contention. Bush II actually lost Florida when a full recount was done at a later date, The Gore campaign made a major mistake when they failed to ask for a full recount which is allowed by Florida law. The Supreme Court then stopped anyone from doing anything about it.
So it was worse than my rather oversimplified summary.

Richard Nixon in 1960 and Al Gore in 2000 are a big contrast to Donald Trump. RN didn't push the voting-irregularity issue because he didn't want an ugly fight that would get nowhere. AG pursued the issue up the to Supreme Court, but threw in the towel after the SC decided.

That makes Donald Trump's loss denial unprecedented in the history of the US, despite what Politesse seems to believe.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.
After a fashion. Do you not remember how popular mutual accusations of various kinds of fraud, each more outlandish than the last, were at the time?
I wasn't alive back then.

Shallow hand-waving is NOT very good research.
He said, hand-waving shallowly...

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
States have the President's personal attorney guilty of felonies regarding the false certification of a number of state Electoral Voter slates. Had just two people, McConnell and Pence, gone along with Trump, he'd been re-elected by the House in 2020. They had fraudulent false Elector Votes ready, and scripted VP Pence's modified count speech in hand as well, heck he even used the script.

The firewall against tyranny had slipped to just two Americans.

And we get some people in here saying, but the Dems were angry about Trump losing in 2016.

#### lpetrich

##### Contributor
Welcome To The ‘Turbulent Twenties’ - NOEMA
We predicted political upheaval in America in the 2020s. This is why it’s here and what we can do to temper it.
By Jack A. Goldstone and Peter Turchin
September 10, 2020

Referring to this heavily-paywalled story: A bipartisan group secretly gathered to game out a contested Trump-Biden election. It wasn’t pretty - The Boston Globe

So I'll quote from the Noema article.
The upcoming election therefore offers several outcomes that could trigger mass violence. If Trump wins narrowly in the electoral college but loses the popular vote by a large margin, there will surely be massive demonstrations protesting the outcome, calling it illegitimate and demanding allegiance to the will of the majority of Americans. Trump may then be tempted to call in federal forces to put down these protests (as in Portland), which may in turn, as in Portland, provoke even larger uprisings.

If Trump loses, he is likely to contest the outcome as a “rigged” election. But that action will again lead to massive popular protests, this time to insist that the election results be honored. If Trump again puts federal security forces in the streets, governors may ask their state troopers or even national guard to protect their citizens and defend the Constitution. Or Trump may call on his many armed civilian supporters to defend their “all time favorite president” (as he put it) against so-called “liberal tyranny.”
I've bolded the part that actually happened.
Many observers, based on precedents in other countries that teetered between democracy and authoritarianism, have argued that the only way forward is with a massive victory by the Democratic Party. But even that might not be sufficient. Trump might still call an overwhelming Biden victory “obviously rigged,” saying such a large victory is impossible given his base of support and claiming it was due to millions of fraudulent mail-in ballots.
Something like that recently happened in Florida: Pro-Trump candidate in Florida is blaming election fraud for his humiliating defeat - Raw Story - Celebrating 18 Years of Independent Journalism Republican Jason Mariner lost to Democrat Sheila Cherfilus-McCormick nearly 4 to 1, a very typical margin for that district, but he called it fraud.
Or if he fears certain defeat, Trump might look for ways to postpone the election, whether due to the coronavirus pandemic or other pretext, a possibility that Trump has tweeted about and that came up in a contentious Congressional hearing on July 28. But that too would almost certainly trigger nationwide protests and possibly end up pitting anti-Trump protestors against federal forces or in violent clashes with Trump supporters.

Even if Biden appears to have achieved a large victory, much of the American public has now been instructed, and perhaps persuaded, that this result could only be due to a flawed election.
That also has happened.
Do Republicans really believe the Big Lie about the 2020 election? - The Washington Post
"Do Republicans really believe Trump won the 2020 election? Our research suggests that they do."
Nevertheless, the vast majority of Republican voters say they agree with Trump’s unsubstantiated claims that the election was stolen. In our most recent University of Massachusetts at Amherst poll, fielded online Dec. 14-20 by YouGov among a nationally representative sample of the U.S. voting-age population, only 21 percent of Republicans say Joe Biden’s victory was legitimate. This is nearly identical to what we found in our April poll, in which just 19 percent of Republicans said Biden was legitimately elected. Other universities, media outlets and polling firms have found nearly identical results.

#### TomC

##### Celestial Highness
The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
Neither of which are relevant.

There were people who didn't understand that the U.S. electorate doesn't choose the president. They thought we were more democratic than we actually are. Hillary Clinton got the most votes from the U.S. electorate. Trump got the most votes from the EC. He won the White House, because the Electoral College is empowered to overrule the American people.

The Steele Dossier and such are just examples of foreign governments intruding in U.S. politics. It's not like we don't do it. The problem is hypocrisy. We overthrow other governments for our purposes, but when Putin helps get a pro-Russian president elected for his purposes it's a problem.

Except, of course, for the USonians who prefer that President. Then, they don't have a problem with our enemies helping get a candidate into. That's one of the most inexplicable things about conservative Christian Trump supporters.

Those people used to consider Russia the evil empire. Since Putin helped get Trump elected Putin and Russia are great people! An anti-religious, pro-abortion, anti-democracy, violent leader of the KGB, Russian oligarchy billionaire became a Trump supporter. Suddenly, conservative Christians don't have a problem with any of that.

What's up with that?

Tom

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The issue isn't whether there were claims from the losing side that there had been fraud, inaccuracies, or even cheating; The issue is that this time the loser didn't drop their claim for the good of the country, well before the inauguration of the new president.

To continue to undermine the president elect, after he has become the president in fact, is so clearly doing more harm than good to your country that every losing candidate has avoided doing it.

Except one.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
The issue isn't whether there were claims from the losing side that there had been fraud, inaccuracies, or even cheating; The issue is that this time the loser didn't drop their claim for the good of the country, well before the inauguration of the new president.

To continue to undermine the president elect, after he has become the president in fact, is so clearly doing more harm than good to your country that every losing candidate has avoided doing it.

Except one.
Absolutey wrong.

The problem is Trump didn’t take any of these claims to court that amounted to more than a dozen of so votes, I believe mostly in Arizona.

All of the grandiose claims, the campaign lawyers were strongly stating to the courts they were not arguing.

For Trump to make such baseless claims was very wrong. To repeatedly do so and never take a single one to court, but holding fake ‘legislative hearings’ at a hotel is an abomination of democracy.

And then we have his behavior on 1/6 which should have pit him in prison, but the GOP has lost control of the monster base they created.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.
Only one of those mentions a stolen election. The others are about hacking and meddling which did occur.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Russia Stole The Presidency. The Electoral College Can Take It Back - Huff Post

Nah, nobody here would ever consider Huffington Post to be something resembling mainstream, right?

How Close Did Russia Really Come to Hacking the 2016 Election? - Politico

Another notoriously right-wing site.

Maddow explains why Putin's Russia hacked the 2016 election - MSNBC

And yet another right-wing site with a right-wing host.

Poll: 60 percent of Americans say Russia meddled in 2016 election

Such a small portion of the American public.
Russia did meddle in the election. Hackers stole documents, provided them to Wikileaks, who leaked them at strategic times to either harm Clinton or provide cover for Trump. This is all established fact. There is no evidence Russia "stole" the election via hacking anything to change vote counts.

The Politico article was about an actual hack into the system and what steps are needed to address security of the system.

#### scombrid

##### Senior Member
Big difference between claiming that Russia meddled, hacked, and leaked versus claiming that the Democrats fabricated enough fake votes to literally steal the election.