#20minutesofaction

[Ford]

I don't know how she dressed but her excessive alcohol consumption was definitely a contributing factor.

So drunk girls deserve to be raped.


Got it.

 

[Ford]

So drunk girls deserve to be raped.

That is exactly the opposite of what I said!

That's pretty much exactly what you said:

her excessive alcohol consumption was definitely a contributing factor.

Again, people get drunk all the time. You make the case that by getting drunk, they invite rape.


Why do you think that drunk people are responsible for being raped, Derec?

 

[Deepak]

And while those on the left tend to decry mass incarceration, they want a very long sentence in cases of sexual assault. Why should sexual assault be treated so differently than other kinds of violent crime?

Mass incarceration for things like drugs can be decried because they're qualitatively different from things like sexual crimes such as rape. Too certain violent crimes are qualitatively difference from other violent crimes. Someone can simultaneously support incarceration in cases of legitimate victimization (such as rape) versus possession of contraband substances.

Simply a silly argument.

One only needs to look at the rate of recidivism (which is a proper subset of post conviction victimization) to see that sexual offenders are also more likely to commit sex crimes in the future:

http://www.smart.gov/SOMAPI/sec1/ch5_recidivism.html

The researchers found a sexual recidivism rate of 5.3 percent for the entire sample of sex offenders based on an arrest during the 3-year followup period. The violent and overall arrest recidivism rates for the entire sample of sex offenders were much higher; 17.1 percent of sex offenders were rearrested for a violent crime and 43 percent were rearrested for a crime of any kind during the followup period. Of the 9,691 sex offenders released from prison in 1994, 3.5 percent were reconvicted for a sex crime and about one-quarter (24 percent) were reconvicted for an offense of any kind during the followup period. Nearly 4 out of every 10 (38.6 percent) sex offenders in the study were returned to prison within 3 years of their release due to the commission of a new crime or a technical violation of their release conditions.

As part of their study, Langan, Schmitt, and Durose (2003) conducted a comparative analysis of recidivism among sex offenders and non-sex offenders. Findings were based on the 3-year postrelease offending of 9,691 sex offenders and 262,420 non-sex offenders released from prison in 1994. The analysis revealed that once released, the sex offenders had a lower overall rearrest rate than non-sex offenders (43 percent compared to 68 percent), but their sex crime rearrest rate was four times higher than the rate for non-sex offenders (5.3 percent compared to 1.3 percent). Similar patterns are consistently found in other studies that compare sex offender and non-sex offender recidivism (see, e.g., Sample & Bray, 2003; Hanson, Scott, & Steffy, 1995).

 

[beero1000]

Raped.

Not according to the laws of the State of California.

You can be a rapist without being convicted of rape by the State of California. Also, you can't have it both ways - according to the State of California, OJ was innocent. My guess is you still think he's a murderer anyway.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Wow! I mean seriously... not surprised in any way... I mean you aren't defending a sexual molester who was trying to become a sexual rapist. Not at all.

I am not "defending" him. But I think the deminization is going a bit too far - comparing him to Ted Bundy for example.

By the way, what is an asexual rapist?

I appreciate english isn't your first language and you deal with better than I, however I think you need to crack open a dictionary and reread the definition for the word 'defend'.

Also Bundy? That post was just above mine so it couldn't exactly explain all that posted prior to it.

Here we have a case of convicted sexual assault, something that was broken up by others before he could do worse and you are busy playing word semantics, taking people out of context, minimizing the crime... and claiming you aren't defending the perpetrator of the crime.

 

[RavenSky]

Getting back to the topic of #20minutesofaction, this guy was sentenced to 2 years in prison for approx. 20 seconds of action. How do people here feel about the difference between what Downing did and his punishment vs. what Turner did and his?

I seems to me that either Downing was dealt with much too harshly or Turner got off way too easy.

The Downing case just shows even more how outrageously leniently Turner was dealt with.

 

[RavenSky]

Brock's dad wrote,
"and will never be his happy-go-lucky self again," and "his every waking moment is consumed with worry." among all the other tripe.

But what strikes me is this:
None of this boy's anguish is as a result of having raped a woman. They are all anguish he feels upon getting caught.
The statements from Brock the rapist and his father are all about how the sentencing will harm his life and how the sex registry and how having his name put out will ruin his life.

"These verdicts have broken and shattered him."

Really.

Really.

Being a rapist didn't bother you? Just being called one is what bothers you?

And that is why he is still a threat to society.

^^^ That 100%

 

[RavenSky]

You can count yourselves lucky - there was far too much of a mess here to start handing out Advisory Warnings and Infractions on any of it.

Do not derail the thread!!
- Stop with your hobby horses in other people's threads!

Do not name call - not even when profoundly provoked

Do not malign the moderators!! This is a volunteer position - we have jobs, lives, and sometimes we even sleep - we do not spend all of our time policing the threads looking for violations. Moreover and most importantly, the moderators do not play favorites. If anyone wants to verify this, raise your hand. We will gladly stop editing other people's posts and passing out AW/infractions when they violate TOU to your disadvantage.

Going forward, anyone who cannot stick to the OP topic will receive an infraction. Anyone who name calls in this thread will receive an infraction. Anyone who discusses moderation or moderators in this thread will receive an infraction.

~~ good morning from one very pissed off moderator

 

[Sarpedon]

2O MINUTES OF RAPE.

 

[RavenSky]

I am not "defending" him. But I think the deminization is going a bit too far - comparing him to Ted Bundy for example.

By the way, what is an asexual rapist?

I appreciate english isn't your first language and you deal with better than I, however I think you need to crack open a dictionary and reread the definition for the word 'defend'.

Also Bundy? That post was just above mine so it couldn't exactly explain all that posted prior to it.

Here we have a case of convicted sexual assault, something that was broken up by others before he could do worse and you are busy playing word semantics, taking people out of context, minimizing the crime... and claiming you aren't defending the perpetrator of the crime.

Repoman's comparison of Turner to Bundy, in context, is correct. The point is that Turner's white "all-american" looks and relative privilege has gotten him an extremely light sentence for the 3 felonies he was convicted of.

At first, Ted Bundy also got the benefit of privilege due to good looks and privilege. He initially wasn't even considered a suspect because "detectives—who were receiving up to 200 tips per day - thought it unlikely that a clean-cut law student with no adult criminal record could be the perpetrator"

Both men were also considered by all who knew them growing as likeable, and both men appeared to have everything in their favor as young men. Bundy was excelling in law school, while Turner was apparently headed to the Olympics swim team.

I agree that the 3 felonies Turner was convicted of pale in comparison to all that Ted Bundy did and was ultimately put to death for. But Ted Bundy started somewhere, and he had a lot of years of progression. Had Ted Bundy been caught at the very beginning of his rape career, in the middle of the act, what would that have looked like? We don't know.

And we actually have no idea if this is really the first time Turner has done something like this. Statistically, though, it almost certainly would not have been his last if the two graduate students had not caught him in this act. And like Ted Bundy, had Brock Turner not been caught in the act, he would have been far down on the suspect list even in the face of multiple eye witnesses because of his privileged background.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

2O MINUTES OF RAPE.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Sarpedon]

It seems that a single, contemptuous sentence would have been sufficient to dismiss these wretched excuses. Too bad the judge didn't consider whether he'd be lenient to someone who only committed 20 minutes of murder.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

How much of the damage from rape is done by the rapist and how much is done by society's shame culture towards rape victims? It would be interesting to see if the latter is a significant in comparison. I have heard people say that they would rather die than live with having it know they've been raped, and I have also heard people say that rape is worse than murder.

 

[Angry Floof]

How much of the damage from rape is done by the rapist and how much is done by society's shame culture towards rape victims? It would be interesting to see if the latter is a significant in comparison. I have heard people say that they would rather die than live with having it know they've been raped, and I have also heard people say that rape is worse than murder.

Jolly Penguin, I'm only going to say this once. The act of rape is worse than any cultural shaming.

Even if you can't fully understand that, maybe you could just keep the possibility in mind as you go through these discussions.

What shaming does is protect rapists, keep rape victims quiet, and ensure the continuation of rape culture. It's a lot like religion in that it is perpetuated in many heads that have been conditioned to tell themselves "It's not me, not my problem" sort of thing.

That's not rape itself. It's more like a built-in cultural amplifier, like a signal booster of abuse and punishment of women. Through the attitudes of so many in our culture, one single act of rape travels to all women.

Rape is a direct and immediate act of violence. It's always, always, a fundamental act of brutality against another human being, even when the physical brutality might seem minimal to a casual observer. It's always an act of power over another, regardless of other motivations. This is the basic nature of rape - power over another, brutality. There is nothing you can add to that, no motivations, nothing whatsoever about the rapist, that would change the basic brutal, violent, inhumanity of rape.

There are communities in the world that will reject infants due to cultural beliefs about witches. They will let the child wander about villages, starving and being kicked or ignored by everyone, by every single adult and child in the community. No mother or father, a child in such a community might get lucky and an outsider will come and rescue them.

But if you were speaking from within that culture and not your current one, where every adult agrees that the child should be starved and ignored, and there is no opposition or questioning of this, you would really wonder if it's the shaming of being starved that hurts that child more than starvation and neglect? And your stomach doesn't turn at the idea of a whole society that actively creates this?

 

[repoman]

good post,

I am not ashamed to say that as a teen I was sucker punched in the face once and have a slightly bent nose. Another time I was hit into a concussion woke up in the hospital and have no idea of what happened. I can talk about it anytime freely, around anybody even customers not just coworkers.

But if I was raped (and if I were a woman) I think that casually talking about that or being asked about it at work would be very inappropriate.

"Hey Jim, how did you get sucker punched again?" very different from "Hey sally, what alley was that you got sexually assaulted in?"

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

It's more like a built-in cultural amplifier, like a signal booster of abuse and punishment of women. Through the attitudes of so many in our culture, one single act of rape travels to all women.

Indeed. And my question is to what degree does that make rape the bad thing that it is? I myself was raped, without any of the cultural trappings of it, drama surrounding it, or cultural shame from it. I am male and she female, so cultural expectations, sentiments and shame are reversed. I also suffered no physical trauma from it, so for me it was not nearly the horrible event that it normally would be.

So my question is what makes rape as bad as it is? What factors do what degree of damage? How big a role does the physical violence play? The social shaming after the fact? The mere fact of being dominated? The act of penetration? Is the degree of perceived domination influenced by the cultural norms around it? When a dog mounts another dog, it is also an act of dominance, but they don't appear to be severely traumatized, and they do this all the time without actual penetration. Does human culture make the effect on us infinitely worse?

It would be interesting to know these things. These are the sort of things that become impossible to talk about because of emotional reactions like this somewhat slanderous potshot here.

Even if you can't fully understand that, maybe you could just keep the possibility in mind as you go through these discussions.

First, don't presume what I "can't fully understand". Second, I will not censor myself or restrict what sort of topics and questions I write about, just for your comfort.

But if you were speaking from within that culture and not your current one, where every adult agrees that the child should be starved and ignored, and there is no opposition or questioning of this, you would really wonder if it's the shaming of being starved that hurts that child more than starvation and neglect? And your stomach doesn't turn at the idea of a whole society that actively creates this?

Ignoring and starving the child IS the shaming in that case.

 

[Angry Floof]

Indeed. And my question is to what degree does that make rape the bad thing that it is? I myself was raped, without any of the cultural trappings of it, drama surrounding it, or cultural shame from it. I am male and she female, so cultural expectations, sentiments and shame are reversed. I also suffered no physical trauma from it, so for me it was not nearly the horrible event that it normally would be.

So my question is what makes rape as bad as it is? What factors do what degree of damage? How big a role does the physical violence play? The social shaming after the fact? The mere fact of being dominated? The act of penetration? Is the degree of perceived domination influenced by the cultural norms around it? When a dog mounts another dog, it is also an act of dominance, but they don't appear to be severely traumatized, and they do this all the time without actual penetration. Does human culture make the effect on us infinitely worse?

It would be interesting to know these things. These are the sort of things that become impossible to talk about because of emotional reactions like this somewhat slanderous potshot here.

I can sympathize with your experience, but "it happened to me and I'm OK now" doesn't change anything for the person whose very personhood was violated. Perhaps your rape itself was also the result of cultural beliefs as well, meaning specifically the belief that a rapist motivated merely by the desire for sexual satisfaction isn't rape. (Unless she was physically much stronger than you and you literally could not fight her off.)

Even if you can't fully understand that, maybe you could just keep the possibility in mind as you go through these discussions.

First, don't presume what I "can't fully understand". Second, I will not censor myself or restrict what sort of topics and questions I write about, just for your comfort.

I did not assume. I said, "if" because not knowing enough about you, it's a very real possibility in our culture of excusing violence runs so deeply and subconsciously that even intelligent, empathetic minds don't know the part they play in it all.

I'd like to insert a side note here. Our new brains are well equipped to creatively solve social problems, but mostly we use those higher functions to justify whatever is going on with the thrust of eons of survival we call things like "old brain" or "animal brain," which is alive and well in every single human being, regardless of how educated or aware of themselves. Ideology and ambient cultural atmosphere (domains of the higher brain) serve mainly to cover up the fact that they are not really in charge.

But if you were speaking from within that culture and not your current one, where every adult agrees that the child should be starved and ignored, and there is no opposition or questioning of this, you would really wonder if it's the shaming of being starved that hurts that child more than starvation and neglect? And your stomach doesn't turn at the idea of a whole society that actively creates this?

Ignoring and starving the child IS the shaming in that case.

Hmmm, I wonder what we can draw from this. That culture kills its own babies, right out in the open, thanks to unquestioned culture?

We can focus on the iffy cases of rape and say it's mostly just less harmful to women and our own society than if we believed our children could be witches deserving of slow death. Not all of these children die; some are rescued by outsiders and some are rescued by some individuals' guilt prompting them to change the rules or make up a story about why that particular child should no longer be considered a witch. Culture saves face, some people's guilt is assuaged in a particular case, and the practice continues.

Or we can have the courage to acknowledge that rape kills humans and it hurts all of society, all of humanity.

If you don't mind me asking about details of your experience, was your penis or testicles or any part of your body torn? Were your testicles ripped off or gashed? Was your underwear stuffed into your mouth? Did you have pressure injuries or bites on your neck? Were you dragged or punched at any time? Was your face or genitals mutilated? Did you have something blunt pressed into your body so hard that you could not breathe or were blinded by the pain? Did you experience the excited breath of your attacker as she expressed her great pleasure at the expense of your pain and helplessness to defend yourself? Do you hear numerous stories daily about rape and brutality toward men and having to hear others' comments about it's not about men being subjugated in our culture? Did you have to watch other men being raped during, before, after your rape? Are you brutalized psychologically, every day, by a society determined to equate your gender, sexuality, and sex organs as detestable, evil, dirty, unworthy of ordinary respect? Do you have sons who are casually targeted with degradation on a regular basis? Do the women in your life in general harbor the belief that your body is public property?

By asking these questions, I am not rhetorically assuming you will say no to any of them. I'm guessing at least one or two of these questions you would answer "Yes." I'm asking because I want to know if your understanding of rape in general includes all those things (and more). I'm asking because all those things (and more) ARE the symptoms of what goes on in all our heads, invisibly creating the cultural monster that gives rise to all rapes, the iffy ones or the most heinous.

That is not to say that all rape case are equal in viciousness, but rather equal in the cultural space that we all create in which they can happen to begin with. Downplay the "iffy" cases, and you downplay the reality of cultural forces that routinely brutalize women. Saying, "Well, *I* didn't suffer that much due to my rape," or "*I* don't harbor those violent urges or negative attitudes toward women" doesn't actually address what's going on.

 

[KeepTalking]

If you don't mind me asking about details of your experience

JP described the experience in the following thread:

http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?6259-I-got-raped-by-a-stripper-How-upset-should-I-be-about-it

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If you don't mind me asking about details of your experience, was your penis or testicles or any part of your body torn? Were your testicles ripped off or gashed? Was your underwear stuffed into your mouth? Did you have pressure injuries or bites on your neck? Were you dragged or punched at any time? Was your face or genitals mutilated? Did you have something blunt pressed into your body so hard that you could not breathe or were blinded by the pain? Did you experience the excited breath of your attacker as she expressed her great pleasure at the expense of your pain and helplessness to defend yourself? Do you hear numerous stories daily about rape and brutality toward men and having to hear others' comments about it's not about men being subjugated in our culture? Did you have to watch other men being raped during, before, after your rape? Are you brutalized psychologically, every day, by a society determined to equate your gender, sexuality, and sex organs as detestable, evil, dirty, unworthy of ordinary respect? Do you have sons who are casually targeted with degradation on a regular basis? Do the women in your life in general harbor the belief that your body is public property?

No. None of that. And as a result, it wasn't a big deal to me. The only factor that really existed with me was that it was without my permission and I did not expect it. There was no shame, violence, or lasting effect aside from shock and confusion. Hence my inquiry into what factors do what degree of harm. I'm sure that is varies from person to person, but I am wondering if there are some universals we can draw out of it.

Downplay the "iffy" cases, and you downplay the reality of cultural forces that routinely brutalize women. Saying, "Well, *I* didn't suffer that much due to my rape," or "*I* don't harbor those violent urges or negative attitudes toward women" doesn't actually address what's going on.

I didn't say any of that. That isn't relevant to my inquiry.

 

[Sarpedon]

There are many evils that occur because people assume that other people think the same way that they do, want the same thing they want and are the same way that they are.