4th Circuit Rules against Trump Ban in Voluminous Decision

[Jimmy Higgins]

link to story

link to Court Findings

In yet another setback for the Trump administration, a federal appeals court in Richmond, Virginia, refused to lift a nationwide injunction that halted a key provision of President Donald Trump’s revised travel ban on six predominantly Muslim nations.

The ruling is the most bruising the White House has suffered in its attempts to defend the ban, as it was rendered by 13 judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit — which deemed the case important enough to skip the usual three-judge process that the vast majority of cases go through.

Three Justices dissented. Unfortunately, this looks like a partisan split 10-3. Despite the 4th Circuit of Appeals being 11 to 7 D to R, 10 Democrat appointed Justices heard the cases along with 3 Republican. One Republican Justice cited an issue of standing. I wish I could read through it, but no time.

I'm sure James Madison will be in here to complain about the findings. But it may take a while, it something like 320 pages long!!!

What I find incredible are the Defendant Applicants list. Among them are "English First Foundation", "Gun Owners of America", "Citizens United", "Governor of the state of Mississippi (former?)". It's a bunch of conservative hit squads... and I believe an impeached Governor.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

My first sloppy reading of the dissent.

Case dissent:
1) Terrorist seek to undermine our way of life.
2) Trump's campaign promise of a Muslim ban does not appear in the order.
3) The courts have no access to "intelligence" information. (There may be terror babies!)
4) The court didn't think of the public interests.
5) While basic Constitutional Rights are important, fuck 'em there could be terror babies.
6) "The people" need a way to fight off terrorists.
7) Something about a case involving dolphins and the Navy. Apparently the Navy could put aside the constitutional rights of dolphins? I'm not quite seeing the relevance... please help me!
8) The lower court found bias in the President's motives but not in his cabinet.... WTF? Um Bannon, Session, etc.
9) Travel ban good, we can't make foreign policy decisions, but President Trump says A-OK.
10) Millions of Americans are harmed by the lower court decision because, just because (reasons not stated).
11) It will tie the hands of all the presidents in the future because, just because (reasons not stated).

Standing dissent:
1) A husband that is permanently separated from his wife has suffered no harm, and has no reason to think that his wife can come to the United States.
2) If a husband fears leaving the country and not being allowed to return, no harm is suffered.
3) IT IS NOT A MUSLIM BAN!
4) Ten Commandments case is not similar.
5) Something about Navy Chaplins.
6) Nobody has standing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And we know there isn't a viable threat against the US from these nations, because Trump hasn't blurted out about it.

 

[whichphilosophy]

And we know there isn't a viable threat against the US from these nations, because Trump hasn't blurted out about it.

As we know the terrorist bomber of Libyan descent has been several times to Libya. A small percentage of people from these countries are involved in terrorism

However with attacks and attempted ones growing in Europe a temporary ban followed by tighter restrictions applied in Europe are in the interests of the human rights of their own residents.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And we know there isn't a viable threat against the US from these nations, because Trump hasn't blurted out about it.

As we know the terrorist bomber of Libyan descent has been several times to Libya. A small percentage of people from these countries are involved in terrorism

However with attacks and attempted ones growing in Europe a temporary ban followed by tighter restrictions applied in Europe are in the interests of the human rights of their own residents.

Trumps' ban was supposed to be for 100 days, which has passed already. They were supposed to be reviewing protocols and rules for VISA and other programs. That review should be done now and this ban unnecessary. Yet, they keep fighting for it.

 

[Keith&Co.]

7) Something about a case involving dolphins and the Navy. Apparently the Navy could put aside the constitutional rights of dolphins? I'm not quite seeing the relevance... please help me!

It's not the constitutional rights of dolphins.
Ideally, we would not needlessly expose whales, dolphins, porpoises, and hippie surfers to harm from the use of sonar in areas and at frequencies which affect them negatively.

It was taken as a given that in the interests of national security, the Navy could use sonar as necessary in order to secure the nation, but people complained about the training being gratuitous.
The court decided that proper training required actual operation of the sonar equipment and while dolphins are cute and everything, national security was far more important. It'd be nice, if we could have security AND dolphins, but we can't, so we pick security.

This almost justifies a travel ban that may infringe slightly on the rights of muslims because national security is more important than muslims who aren't really citizens, just like the dophins aren't.

 

[funinspace]

As we know the terrorist bomber of Libyan descent has been several times to Libya. A small percentage of people from these countries are involved in terrorism

However with attacks and attempted ones growing in Europe a temporary ban followed by tighter restrictions applied in Europe are in the interests of the human rights of their own residents.

Trumps' ban was supposed to be for 100 days, which has passed already. They were supposed to be reviewing protocols and rules for VISA and other programs. That review should be done now and this ban unnecessary. Yet, they keep fighting for it.

But...but....butt...ISLAMISTS!!!

or was that:
MARXISTS!!!!

Anywho, the suicide bomber was born in Westminster. Maybe the UK needs a travel ban on those coming out of Westminster?

 

[Derec]

Anywho, the suicide bomber was born in Westminster. Maybe the UK needs a travel ban on those coming out of Westminster?

 

[funinspace]

Anywho, the suicide bomber was born in Westminster. Maybe the UK needs a travel ban on those coming out of Westminster?

I didn't realize that El Cheato's 'temporary' travel of ban foreigners included small critters like gerbils. I guess rabies is now scarier than ebola...must be a topical issue...

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Anywho, the suicide bomber was born in Westminster. Maybe the UK needs a travel ban on those coming out of Westminster?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Derec seems to have a problem understanding that you can't have a travel ban on people who are your own citizens because THEY FUCKING LIVE IN THE FUCKING COUNTRY AS YOU!!!!

So bringing up the mouse / horse thing is just stupid.

 

[blastula]

I think he wants to any ban to include arrivals coming out of Muslim vaginas.

 

[Derec]

I didn't realize that El Cheato's 'temporary' travel of ban foreigners included small critters like gerbils. I guess rabies is now scarier than ebola...must be a topical issue...

This was the reply about the bomber being born in Westminster. That's really irrelevant, as his behavior clearly showed.
He is still a radical Muslim terrorist. And the kicker is that he was known to British authorities. But the authorities did nothing to stop him.
Same thing goes for the Tunisian fakefugee who drove the truck into the Christmas market last year in Berlin. He was also known to German authorities. They also did nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

THEY FUCKING LIVE IN THE FUCKING COUNTRY AS YOU!!!!

That's the scary bit and the point of the meme. Perhaps their parents should not have been allowed to immigrate en masse, breed, and indoctrinate their children into radical Islam. Each of the mass Muslim migrant women will, on average, give birth to five Muslims who are born in Europe or US.

 

[Derec]

You mean those that believe that just because somebody is born in a certain country, that means they truly belong to that country.

For example, Al Alwaki might have been born in the US, but that only makes him de jure American. He never was de facto American because his allegiance was to Islam and Yemen.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

"Truly Belong"
"Truly Belong"
"Truly Belong"
"Truly Belong"​

 

[Tom Sawyer]

How does that make him less of an American?

There's lots of Americans who enjoy killing lots of innocent people for stupid reasons.

 

[funinspace]

This was the reply about the bomber being born in Westminster. That's really irrelevant, as his behavior clearly showed. ......

Ok, here is the popcorn trail laid out for you:
(1) Jimmy starts a thread about the latest El Cheato travel ban getting slammed down in the 4th circuit court.
(2) WP in post #4, projects the the UK attack as if were something to support El Cheato's 'temporary' travel ban from key Muslim countries:

However with attacks and attempted ones growing in Europe a temporary ban followed by tighter restrictions applied in Europe are in the interests of the human rights of their own residents.

(3) I, in post #7, with sarcasm point out that the guy was a UK citizen; the point being that WP post is irrelevant and one of his usual hobby horses.
(4) And then you introduce gerbils born in horse stables...going for ultimate irrelevancy...

The topic is: 4th Circuit Rules against Trump Ban

 

[TV and credit cards]

Trump’s executive order “speaks with vague words of national security, but in context drips with religious intolerance, animus, and discrimination,” Chief Judge Roger Gregory wrote for the majority.

It's just such a keeper. That's going on a post-it. Yeah, It's that big.

And numbnuts, Sessions say it's going to the Supreme Court.
Pffffft!
Bet they back away.

 

[bilby]

This was the reply about the bomber being born in Westminster. That's really irrelevant, as his behavior clearly showed.
He is still a radical Muslim terrorist. And the kicker is that he was known to British authorities. But the authorities did nothing to stop him.
Same thing goes for the Tunisian fakefugee who drove the truck into the Christmas market last year in Berlin. He was also known to German authorities. They also did nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

THEY FUCKING LIVE IN THE FUCKING COUNTRY AS YOU!!!!

That's the scary bit and the point of the meme. Perhaps their parents should not have been allowed to immigrate en masse, breed, and indoctrinate their children into radical Islam. Each of the mass Muslim migrant women will, on average, give birth to five Muslims who are born in Europe or US.

OK, let us accept this nonsense for the sake of argument. None of that stuff should have been allowed; but it was.

What would you have happen now?

You say: "... he was known to British authorities. But the authorities did nothing to stop him."

What do you propose that they should have done?

Imprison him, for a crime he might one day commit?

Deport him to a country that doesn't want him, and of which he is not a citizen, for a crime he might one day commit?

Deport his parents to their country of origin, for a crime committed by their son?

Pre-crime is science fiction. In non-totalitarian, non-dystopian states, citizens are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Being 'known to' police is a VERY long way short of the police having sufficient evidence for an arrest, or the courts having sufficient evidence for a conviction.

What, exactly, would you have had "the authorities" do to "stop him"? Which authorities? How would the proposed actions by those "authorities" be justified, without the creation of a totalitarian dystopia in which innocent people are routinely punished for crimes that the authorities suspected they might one day possibly commit?

 

[Warpoet]

How does that make him less of an American?

There's lots of Americans who enjoy killing lots of innocent people for stupid reasons.

You likely won't see Derec arguing so passionately that people like Dylann Roof, neo-Nazis or the nutty Christian types who want to turn us into a theocracy aren't "real" Americans any time soon.